| Author | Message | ||
| Chyna |
very interesting page | ||
| Lydell |
I went and took a look at the site Chyna, and I am gagging. Aren't they kind and openminded? They have found by doing "a survey" that the top reasons that folks leave the denomination is just because they get disgruntled because they weren't treated well. There's the barest of mention that some leave because of disagreements with theology (I would put it that their theology reeks, myself), and oh my goodness me, doctrinal disagreement is so far down the list as to be easily brushed aside. Why they are so fair and openminded that all folks would have to do is be willing to forgive the ones who hurt them and come right back in. (What about the stinky doctrine?) After all, not everyone is perfect, you know. (What about the stinky doctrine?) And we should all just be willing to forgive and get along. (What about the stinky doctrine?!) There's room for differences (except when it comes to us clinging to our stinky doctrine!) | ||
| Chyna |
Lydell, I know, i thought that was interesting that they said that people rarely left because of doctrine. trying to figure out what I've heard from other people, doctrine is a part of it, but like someone else had suggested sometimes God uses crisis to wake people up to get them out of the church. it is a contrast to this former adventist site. Chyna | ||
| Chyna |
I see what is going on. I stumbled onto a page where people were talking about why they left and was under the mistaken impression that it was a former adventist page to stay former adventists. it was late :) | ||
| Allenette |
Well, from what I have gleaned regarding new members from 2nd or 3rd world countries, they are not all that "ignorant", after all. Someone shows up in their village with FREE gaudy clothes, FREE food supplies, you-name-it, and they latch on. Wouldnt YOU? A few thousand "members" get added "worldwide", the paying sheep get fleeced into sending more $$$ for missions, they feel good about their generosity, and meanwhile, back at the ranch, (GC) the bills get paid, leaders get their "golden parachute" padded even more, God's in His Heaven, all's right with the world gggg Once again, I maintain that SDA (and any other religious denomination) is just another BIG BUSINESS masquerading as a church. Take away the goodies and they leave. A no-brainer to me? | ||
| Chyna |
allenette, i don't think it's an entirely correct assessment of all religious denominations that they are simply big businesses bilking people out of their money. the nondenominational church i attended in MA was a wonderful church that served the community, they ran a free healthcare clinic for the homeless, they also ran a counseling center for pregnant women. | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Allenette and Chyna, I must agree with you Chyna, that all churches are not in the "money milking" business. Allenette, I figure that all gals AREN'T dumb, all people that wear cowboy hats AREN'T cowboys, all Jews AREN'T tight, all Germans AREN'T stubborn, all dogs DON'T bite, all Italians AREN'T in the Maffia, all snakes AREN'T poisonous, all men AREN'T smart, all schools AREN'T drug centers, all bikers AREN'T killers, all parents AREN'T child beaters, all Fords AREN'T "found on road dead," all policemen AREN'T crooked and so on. Therefore, NOT ALL RELIGIOUS organizations are in it to screw the members and community out of their hard earned bucks! I can agree with you that there are many religious organizations that DO!!!!! And when one has been bit by a dog a few times or beat up by a husband everyday, one would tend to figure all dogs bite and all husbands beat their wives. With our backgrounds, I can definately see where you are coming from!!;-)) You just need to meet a few nice dogs!:):):):) Just my two cents worth........Maryann;-)) | ||
| Dennis |
Wise counsel, Maryann! | ||
| Allenette |
Perhaps my post painted with a very broad brush but I can assure you that while on a local level, many many, if not most, churches "do good things". (So, probably, does Fidel Castro hey, Hitler was a Christian) Unless you have been employed by ANY denomination, you will have spent your time on the other side of the pulpit, and from THAT side, in the best ones, its sweetness and light. Frame of reference: The Wizard of Oz: "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain". Remember the Christian sign, the fish? well, fish rots from the head down, and ALL organized religions are corrupt, Period. There are three "BIG" corruptions on this planet: Big Government, Big Business, and Big Religion. I really really wish I could post publicly WHAT I KNOW about corruption in $DA. But they have more $$$ for their "LIARS" than I can afford for my "Liar". (Lawyer for the uninitiated) If I considered telling you, MaryAnn, "what I know", I would whisper it in your ear, not even in private email. | ||
| Allenette |
Folkenberg was the tip of the iceberg. | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Allenette, I DOOOOOOOOO have a problem with Churches that are un-duly attatched to an organization!!! It seems that some Churches are at the bottom of a TOP heavy pyramid?!:-(( There are plenty of Churches out there that don't seem to be too top heavy. The inner workings of a Church has never been too high on my list of cares. It sorta is the people in the Church that I associate with that matters. In my dealings with the Baptist Church, I found that they were so tied to Pappa Top Of Totum Pole, that they couldn't operate outside of a narrow mind set. My memory and recent "hearings" of things that go on in the SDA Church seem to be rather horrendous too. Folkenberg just for starters and the fact that the the Pastor's have to adhere to "unsupportable by the Bible" lesser issues. (If I can call them lesser issues) These poor Pastor's don't have the "in-church" commitee to deal with like the Church I have been going to deals with issues, policies etc. Having a G.C. to deal with really seriously reminds me of the "goings on" with the local union!!!!!!!!!!! Really!!!!!!! I seldom go to union meetings! It isn't about what the "people" want or what is right as much as who saw who do it and who is keeping their mouth shut and therefore get to keep their job and help peddle the right people in office to make sure they continue getting their paycheck and BONUS. It's a dirty rotten shame that there are religious organizations that are so similar to organized labor unions. Hey, maybe that is why EGW didn't want her followers to get involved with the labor unions???? I do understand that you would know first hand some things that I or most people would have a hard time believing!! BUT, I still stand on the firm opinion that all religious organizations are NOT "gangs." As to Hitler: "Claiming" you are a christian and "being" a Christian are definately two horses of two vastly different colors, sizes and shapes! Looking forward to getting my 'puter back to chat-chat with you later. :):):):)Maryann | ||
| Chyna |
hiya allenette, would it be so awful if some churches actually were serving the community out of love? sometimes i think about if Christianity was all a load of crap, then what? would my life be a waste because I didn't go out and have as much sex as possible, party, and get smashed every night, try every kind of mind altering drug, was always looking out for #1, and tried to make and hoard as much money as possible? (that would make me a rock star, right? or at least akin to living like one) in a word: no. the tenets of Christianity make for good community. love your neighbor as yourself. feed the hungry, clothe the poor, visit the imprisoned. and the fruit of the spirit: peace, patience, love, joy, goodness, gentleness, self control, faithfulness, kindness. what I think is the problem is in translation (from knowing about what's good, to doing good). humans not being able to be constantly representatives of aforestated list. fortunately, that's why we had Jesus as an example, and a substitute, and that's why we're under grace now. yes, the world is corrupt. but is that the final answer? in Him, Chyna p.s. besides, the pleasures of sin are transient, the high you get from doing good lasts and lasts | ||
| Allenette |
;-) Chyna: I do understand "where you're coming from", and, if my memory serves me, you are from a Baptist background? Most fundamentalist-type denominations leave their members with the "its either black or white and there are no shades of grey" impressions that the only thing that is keeping them from doing ALL OF THE "Sins" you mentioned above, is their religious beliefs. I honestly DO NOT mean this condescendingly, but I truly hope that at some point in your life you cross paths with highly moral, ethical people, who just happen to also NOT be religious, because, they ARE out there. Their reasons for being highly moral, ethical, perhaps also philanthropic, just are not determined by the reward/punishment system used by most religions,Christian or non-Christian; a noble way to live IMHO ;-) My original point regarding the 3rd world countries where SDA is MOST SUCCESSFUL at the moment, was, that they are the ones apparently giving out the most or many, goodies right now. Did you know that in 1997, ADRA received $85 million from the U.S. govt., to help in their disaster relief programs, some of which went to REBUILD TENNIS COURTS IN AFRICA THAT ALLOWED THE PLAYERS TO PLAY WITHOUT HAVING THE SUN IN THEIR EYES? What a relief that disaster must have been!!! I can pull up the newspaper article from the I think it was, L.A. Times, if you find that a bit incredible.... remember, that is YOURS AND MY tax dollars at work, NOT our voluntary tithes and offerings!!! | ||
| Allenette |
MaryAnn: Looking forward to you getting however re-wired you have to for voice yakking again :-) BTW, that is NOT the reason that EGW disapproved of labor unions, and, FWIW, I waffle on my opinions of labor unions myself ;-) Chyna: you are free and clear to do wonderfully wonderful things for your fellow men, with or without any organization endorsing, organizing, or subsidizing it, which is what I do, altho I dont spend time or money advertising how wonderful I am for doing it ggg which is what most organized religions do, (on purpose). I prefer the "going into the closet to pray" type giving....it keeps me honest (and humbler ggg)You can even deduct it from your taxes with very few questions asked from the IRS BTW ggg When you get out into the world, earning your living you will find out these things anyway. ;-) | ||
| Chyna |
allenette, i've met many wonderful highly ethical people that do not have "faith" or a belief in anything besides whatever morals they have formed philosophical or otherwise. yet none of them approach the same kind of joy i see in those that believe in the living God. chyna | ||
| Colleentinker |
Oswald Chambers differentiates between "morality" and "ethics" this way: ethics begins in sin and works out a system of behavior that leads toward wholness or holiness. (These are not quotes, by the way.) Morality begins in holiness and establishes a way of living that brings holiness into a sinful environment. In other words, they are the opposite of each other. Ethics is rooted in sin, morality is rooted in holiness. This differentiation has helped me to understand why certain people whom I know can disbelieve Adventism AND Jesus but still remain in the church and study and teach ethical decision making. I suspect that ethicists have sensitive consciences and are looking for ways to have order and peace inside their worlds of disbelief. But ultimately I agree with Chyna; non-believers, no matter how ethical and meticulous, do not have the persistent and irrepressible joy that Christ-followers have. In His grace, Colleen | ||
| Allenette |
Colleen: I admire your bothering to find out the definitions beyond the dictionary. (Its hard to do!!!If you all dont think so, just try it) Still, you all are putting down those on this planet who are unmoved by the myths and still insist on living ethical lives with no promise of rewards by any superior beings who may 0r may not exist. Ta Ta for now....glad you all are so HAPPY ggg ...How are the ole 401K's doin? oops reality, what a concept! | ||
| Max |
Hi Colleen, Always enjoy the children of your excellent mind, though I sometimes don't agree entirely. This is one of those times. You wrote: ^^ But ultimately I agree with Chyna; non-believers, no matter how ethical and meticulous, do not have the persistent and irrepressible joy that Christ-followers have. ^^ I don't think that's a judgment that we in our imperfect, "see through a glass darkly" condition can make. Isn't it a bit beyond our kin to think to try to divide all of our acquaintences up into "believers" and "unbelievers" and then to judge their relative happiness? And didn't Jesus say, "Other sheep have I not of this fold"? An avowed atheist, for instance, may be so for "all the RIGHT reasons" -- if you catch my drift, and I think you do. Maybe he -- despite his avowed atheism -- is in truth one of Christ's "other sheep." How can we judge that? Maybe he is exactly where God wants him to be -- an atheist -- perhaps because of the "tender mercies" of self-called Christ followers. When Mohatma Ghandi was once asked what he thought of Western Christianity, he replied, "I think that would be a good idea." And Jesus said, "By their FRUITS shall ye know them" -- not thier emotional states, whether joyful or sorrowful. Ultimately we can only judge people by their fruits. And if an atheist, as is being discussed here, demonstrates by his actions the FRUITS of the Spirit, then I would personally trust him as one of Christ's "other sheep," at least as far as my personal relationship with him is concerned. (Trusting him with my money, for example.) Far more, certainly, than the professed Christ follower who produces only thorns and thistles, poisonous fruit, and hypocritical evil contiunally. What do you think? Max | ||
| Max |
Need to add another thought. Acts 4:12(NIV) quotes Peter as saying, "Salvation is found in no one else [than Jesus Christ], for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved." As a child growing up Adventist I was taught that this text meant only those who called themselves Christian could be saved. But learning since then the cosmic dimensions of the cross, I've revised my thinking. I now believe that this text of Peter's means something quite different. Rather than being an EXCLUSIVE test as I had been taught (and as SDAs still believe), it is an INCLUSIVE test. And it means that if a Hindu, such as Ghandi, for instance -- even if he HAS heard the name Jesus and has rejected it for the RIGHT reasons -- has a spiritual relationship with Christ through the Holy Spirit (acting despite you or I or anyone else who would claim to be judge in these matters), then he has salvation. And not only is he saved, but he is saved under that name Jesus Christ and no other. For such are the mysterious ways of the power of the sovereign God of us all! | ||
| Colleentinker |
Max, it's great to have you back! I quite agree that people other than professed Christ-followers are in Jesus' fold. Paul, after all, said that all men are without excuse because of the evidence present in creation and REALITY. I'm not going to quibble about whether an athiest can or cannot be in Jesus' fold. I suspect, but cannot prove, that people who respond to truth whether or not they have heard of the Living God, will be aware of the presence of a personality of love and justice that is beyond them. I also believe that there are those who call themselves Christ-followers who do not have a personal relationship with Jesus and do not acknowledge or live in the experience of the Holy Spirit in them. In any case, I believe that the people who experience the personal reality of Jesus, whether or not they've heard his name, experience the persistent peace/joy of his presence in their lives as a ground bass (sorry-a musical term from my 'way-past college days) that runs subtly but continually beneath the experiences of their livesóeven their painful ones. People who do not experience the personal reality of Jesusówhether or not they profess his nameówill not experience his joy and peace. I think I've mentioned before that my husband Richard has observed that while Native Americans worshiped the Great Spirit, some were probably worship the true God and some were probably worshiping a false God. Some were violent and destructive, wreaking fear and havoc. Others were peaceful and helpful, protecting even foreigners if they were in danger. Such protection and care does not come from evil. Such people would know the reality of a loving God and would experience his peace. That's the way I see it at this time! Rejoicing in His goodness, Colleen |
