| Author | Message | ||
| Chyna |
hi, it's me again. I feel so battered talking to my ex-boyfriend about adventism. When i pointed out to him that some adventists believe that they can never be assured that they are saved and that they worry that at the day of judgement that God will weigh their good deeds against their bad he said, "so what?" and I was aghast because if people in the Adventist church believe that, then the fault lies with the leadership and of the elders in the church for false doctrine. he doesn't seemed to be concerned about the welfare of other adventist churches whose doctrine differ than his. I asked him, "do you think Jesus is Michael the archangel?" and he said "yes, it's a very simple bible study." talking to him seems so useless, I keep trying to offer scripture to him, but it's like he can't read it for what it says. http://web2.airmail.net/billtod/crisda.txt this is a link i found helpful talking about adventism. i hadn't realized that adventists had such a wide range of beliefs. http://web2.airmail.net/billtod/martin.htm that is a helpful article also. does anyone know how to get hands on _Questions of Doctrine_ and/or The Truth about Seventh-Day Adventism? in Him, Chyna | ||
| Chyna |
ok, i have to ammend upon further reading. basically Walter Martin met with Adventists theologians etc, you could say the ones that could defend Adventism best. Then he came out with "Questions on Doctrine" and "The Truth About Seventh-Day Adventism." Both of these books are out of print. Martin based his judgement of SDA's based upon "QOD" however QOD is now no longer circulating and many SDA's call it heretical and pandering to evangelicals. *sigh* I feel like I just went in a big circle. "One of the strengths of Adventism has been its emphasis on education, and when in the 1950s evangelical Christians began asking Seventh-day Adventist theologians to clarify where they stood on key Christian doctrines, these brilliantly educated theologians produced classic "orthodox" answers. These answers were published in a book called "Answers to Questions on Doctrine" and Martin - an acknowledged expert on cults at the time - amazed the evangelical Christian world by declaring Seventh-day Adventism was not a cult. Martin's book, "Kingdom of the Cults" contained detailed arguments supporting his claim that Seventh-day Adventism be accepted as an orthodox Christian denomination, much of his argument being supported by quotes from "Answers to Questions on Doctrine". However a number of Adventist leaders realised that the theologians had produced doctrines which contradicted classic Seventh-day Adventist teachings - and put pressure on the church leadership to withdraw the book. They succeeded and soon after it was published the book was withdrawn" tired, Chyna | ||
| Steve |
Walter Martin was very careful to not label a religious organization as a cult until AFTER he was fully convinced that they were completely off track. Although he had serious problems with Catholicism he never called it a cult. The same with SDA. I have read both his appendix in The Kingdom of the Cults, The Truth About Seventh-day Adventism, and Questions on Doctrine. After seeing Martin interact with William Johnsson on the John Ankerberg show for 6 programs, it became very clear that even Walter Martin later in life was about to label SDAism with the full label of CULT. I've been in contact with Jill Martin-Rische, Walter Martin's daughter. She is currently in the process of gathering quotes from her father on SDAism as well as determining his position on SDAism near the end of his life. I fully believe that QOD was a snow job on Martin and Barnhouse. It provided the church with coverage in the premier Christian magazine, Christianity Today. They lost thousands of subscribers over that stance. But in the end, the church seems to taking up it's pre-1950 positions on many doctrinal statements. And yes, Chyna, QOD is not well accepted among many in the leadership of the church. If you want a copy of QOD, contact Leaves of Autumn in Payson, Arizona. It's a conservative SDA used book house, but caters to everyone in the church, even us apostates! You can get a copy for about $8 if they have one in stock. (But be careful, I even have a letter [in storage] from the head of the Biblical Research Institute, who specifically states that there are many problems with QOD. It is NOT a statement of the position of the SDA church.) Leaves of Autumn Books, Inc. 518 W. Main St. P. O. Box 440 Payson, AZ 85547-0440 Phone: (520)474-3654 FAX: (520) 474-0310 | ||
| Steve |
BTW, regarding this thread: Jesus is NOT Michael. Jesus may be OVER the angels, but that in no way makes Him in any way, shape or form an archangel. He is the Creator of the angels. The angels are created beings. The current way SDAs teach that Jesus is Michael is a leftover "remnant" of the Arian theology that Jesus was a created being who then created all other things after Himself. Anyone familiar with the Jehovah's Witness teaching of Jesus being Michael will realize the same origin for the teaching. It is Arianism. In the book of Jude, when Michael the archangel is contending with Satan over the body of Moses, Michael says "the Lord rebuke you!" (Jude vs. 9) If it was Jesus, I don't think He would be calling upon the Lord. He IS the Lord. He would have rebuked Satan directly. Steve | ||
| Cindy |
Chyna and Steve, I have Walter Martin's book "The Truth about Seventh-day Adventism" from 1960. It is an interesting book; he acknowledges disagreement with the "special truths" of Adventism and calls these "aberrations"; but is generally favorable to Adventists being considered "sincere Christians" and to not be labeled a cult. Like you said, Chyna, this was based on the work involved and presented in QOD... Keep us posted, Steve, on Martin's daughter's research... Always in Grace, Cindy | ||
| Chyna |
my regret is that I read the CRI on Adventism, and I was like: "Oh good, there are some traditional adventists that believe in weird things and then evangelical adventists that seem more on track." and from that assumption onward I thought then my adventist boyfriend must be evangelical because he seemed so logical. I hadn't realized Adventism takes on many doctrines in different ways. I had hoped QOD would be an official way of pointing to Adventist doctrine, but now that i realize that most adventists don't go by what QOD was about, it's not valid to read it as a resource on the current church position my difficulty is that I believe that many Adventists are saved, but then how to address all the "debris" that comes with Adventism? in Him, Chyna |
