| Author | Message | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Revelantion 12:17 NIV says, "Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to make war against the REST* of her offspring -- those who obey God's commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus." *In the KJV the "rest" is the "remnant." So, from the Bible and the Bible only, who are "the rest"? | ||
| Food For Thought! |
The "remnant" according to the BIBLE are those left at last on the earth just before JESUS comes who are trusting in JESUS and JESUS alone for their salvation, and love HIM enough to do ALL that HE says! (See Revelation 12:14 then See John 14:15) My wife cooks, cleans, washes my dirty close and picks up after me, not because she likes to do that, but because she loves me. When we love someone we will do whatever it is that please that someone. How do you know she loves me, because she wants to do whatever pleases me! Same thing with JESUS, I love HIM for what HE has done for me on Calvary, and how do you know I love HIM, because I do all that pleases HIM! For some scripture references see Matthew 7:20-23 (only those who do what HE says will be found worthy in the judgement. If we don't do what HE says HE will say HE never knew us.) Notice then what 1John 2:2-5 says about how do we know if we know HIM! I understand your plight and applaud your standing up for what you believe, but what we believe is not important if it is contrary to the WORD OF GOD! (See Isiaih 8:20 for more clarifiaction!) Then finally just before HE closes the canon of scripture, HE makes specific mention of who will be able to have a right to the tree of life and go into the city so bright and so fair! (See Revelation 22:14) Then HE so amply states shortly thereafter, don't add or take away from the words of this book! Now I know that keeping any commandments will not save me, for I am saved by grace and grace alone! There is not enough commandment keeping or keeping of anything else for that matter that can save me! But there will be some evidence that I am saved wouldn't there be? Of course there would be, and the evidence is that I am keeping HIS commandments! Not to be saved, but because I am saved! Thanks for your time, be blessed! | ||
| Food For Thought! |
The "remnant" according to the BIBLE are those left at last on the earth just before JESUS comes who are trusting in JESUS and JESUS alone for their salvation, and love HIM enough to do ALL that HE says! (See Revelation 12:14 then See John 14:15) My wife cooks, cleans, washes my dirty clothes and picks up after me, not because she likes to do that, but because she loves me. When we love someone we will do whatever it is that please that someone. How do you know she loves me, because she wants to do whatever pleases me! Same thing with JESUS, I love HIM for what HE has done for me on Calvary, and how do you know I love HIM, because I do all that pleases HIM! For some scripture references see Matthew 7:20-23 (only those who do what HE says will be found worthy in the judgement. If we don't do what HE says HE will say HE never knew us.) Notice then what 1John 2:2-5 says about how do we know if we know HIM! I understand your plight and applaud your standing up for what you believe, but what we believe is not important if it is contrary to the WORD OF GOD! (See Isaiah 8:20 for more clarifiaction!) Then finally just before HE closes the canon of scripture, HE makes specific mention of who will be able to have a right to the tree of life and go into the city so bright and so fair! (See Revelation 22:14) Then HE so amply states shortly thereafter, don't add or take away from the words of this book! Now I know that keeping any commandments will not save me, for I am saved by grace and grace alone! There is not enough commandment keeping or keeping of anything else for that matter that can save me! But there will be some evidence that I am saved wouldn't there be? Of course there would be, and the evidence can be found in that I am keeping HIS commandments! Not to be saved, but because I am saved! Thanks for your time, be blessed! | ||
| Bruce H |
Food for thought How are you doing my name is Bruce Heinrich. (Just thought you should know), He might be interested in talking to you | ||
| Max |
Dear "Food For Thought!" You wrote, ^^ The "remnant" according to the BIBLE are those left at last on the earth just before JESUS comes who are trusting in JESUS and JESUS alone for their salvation, and love HIM enough to do ALL that HE says! ^^ Do you mean the members of the Seventh-day Adventist church? Praying for you, Max | ||
| jtree |
More Food for thought.... Do you know what the Remnant really is, in Revelation? The godly remnant are believers in the Lord Jesus, those who during the Tribulation will turn to Christ. You know Revelations? May I introduce you to a verse that hardly anyone talks about? Revelation 3:20 "Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him and he [will dine] with Me" | ||
| Wendy Forsyth |
Again, "those who keep my commandments". How can you ignore that guys?! Wendy | ||
| Wendy Forsyth |
Jude, not all Adventists keep the commandments. Nor Baptists, nor any other church. Christ has people in all churches that He will call out at the end of time. Whichever church they come out of, they will be discernable by the fact that they keep the commandments and testimony of Jesus Christ. As I said on the other post, the full circle. The Law. And. The spirit of the Law that Christ testified to in His work here on Earth. All of the commandments. All of the testimony. Not just one or the other. Looking forward to your response. Wendy | ||
| Max |
Hi Wendy, Whose "commandments" are those to which you refer? Are they the Ten Commandments? Or are they Christ's commandments? Please stick to the context in which the verse to which you refer is found. Real grace alone, Max | ||
| Jude=Max |
Dear Wendy, Before we can effectively discuss this, we need to "context ourselves" in the word of God. You refer to "the end of time" in the future tense. Do you have scriptural support that "the last days" have not yet begun? I have scriptural support documenting the fact that "the end of time" began with the first coming of Christ. Can you defeat it with Scripture alone? Real grace alone, Max=Jude | ||
| sherry |
No, we haven't Wendy. Keep my commandments - that is Keep Jesus' commandments. Look at the example of the transfiguration. Peter saw Moses and Elijah and Jesus and he wanted to put tents up for them all. Moses represents the Law, Elijah, the Prophets...and then there was the Father's voice telling them to Listen to His Son! and Moses and Elijah were no longer seen. The OT is important to understand all the fulfillment in Christ. Jesus gave us the example of the Lord's supper that whenever we drink the grape juice and break bread to remember - REMEMBER - Him...He said that this was the Blood of His covenant - same language as the Siani covenant...and to Do this in remembrance of Him...just as formally the old covenant sign was keeping Sabbath. Remember. He has given us all his commandments and the Holy Spirit now abides in our hearts to continue to guide us as we continue to study His Word. We are sealed for redemption by His Spirit. God is a covenant-keeping God. In order to undertstand the New Covenant, it would be well to study the Old and see the commonalities. Jesus is Lord, even of the Sabbath. Please study, Wendy. I have been amazed at what I am learning. And let me tell you, I have joy like I've never had, and I'm sharing the Gospel every day. Jesus is Awesome! He loves you so very much! You bet testimony and commandments go together, but without a true knowledge of the gospel of Jesus Christ, my keeping any commands is futile, and based on trying to earn entrance based on something I did. The Gospel fully understood transforms your whole life! You want nothing but Jesus and you will stand up for Him no matter what the cost! There also is joy in loving others by following Paul's example "For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win the more; and to the Jews I became as a Jew, to those who are under the law, as under the law, that I might win those who are under the law; to those who are without law, as without law (not being without law toward God, but under law toward Christ), that I might win those who are without law; to the weak I became as week, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all men, that I might by all means save some." 1 Cor. 9:19-22...this is true Christian love...this is following Jesus. | ||
| Colleen Tinker (Colleentinker) |
Beautifully said, Sherry! What you said about joy struck a resounding note in me. It has occurred to me recently that the Holy Spirit was guiding me for years, bringing me slowly but surely to truth. When I finally understood that I had been living in bondage all my life, trying to make all I had been taught balance without tension (a vain task!) with what I read in the Bible and I committed to let it go and to let God be my teacher, I cannot begin to explain the deep joy and peace that I began to experience. Jesus is right; the truth shall set you free! We have to desire truth and be willing to embrace it no matter how much it shakes everything we know and love. But the joy and peace more than make up for the deep painand the joy and peace are impossible to explain beforehand to someone who hasn't experienced it! In His joy, Colleen | ||
| Lydell |
Colleen, isn't it a precious thing to look back now and recognize the ways that the Lord was active in moving you toward truth! A book on the shelf here, a snippet of sermon heard there, words of a song that literally struck a cord in the heart, words of a scripture read a hundred times and yet overlooked before suddenly now leaping from the page... The Lord is so amazing! | ||
| Colleen Tinker (Colleentinker) |
So true, Lydell! Colleen | ||
| Cindy |
Wendy, Hi! Glad you are posting! I was thinking about the words commands and commandments as used in the Bible. We as S.D.A.s have always said this automatically refers to the Ten Commandments. I am seeing that this is not necessarily so! In 1 John 2:3&4 it says, We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. The man who says, I know him, but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. Ive always heard this means we must obey the literal Ten Commandments. But later, in 1 John 3:22-24 he explains what commands can be: ... and receive from him anything we ask, because we obey his commands and do what pleases him. And this is his command: TO BELIEVE IN THE NAME OF HIS SON, JESUS CHRIST, AND TO LOVE ONE ANOTHER AS HE COMMANDED US. Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us. We know it by the Spirit he gave us. When we believe in Jesus we are promised the Holy Spirit to be our comfort and guide as we study the Scriptures. I think we can trust the Holy Spirit to work in our lives and open our eyes to the truth of the Bible-- how all the Law and the Prophets find their fulfillment in JESUS! To HIM be the Glory ! Great things HE has DONE!! Always in debt to His Mercy and Grace, Cindy | ||
| Wendy Forsyth |
Max, as you can see from some of my other posts I clearly do believe we are in the end times. I may not have expressed that very clearly and do not claim to have the same grasp of grammar that I had in college. I believe that there is the most maximum fulfillment of the end of time right now. We are living in a time when all around us prophecy straight from the Bible is being fulfilled. Are you ready to discuss that, from the Bible only. No E.G.White? You will find that even though I don't have all the answers,as none of us do, I agree with most of the fault-finding you direct towards SDA's. You are right. I just do not agree that you should disregard the law and obedience to it. We are saved by grace and grace alone. Do you believe? Do you believe that I believe? I still choose to obey God's law to the letter of the law, knowing that Christ's blood is sufficient for me. When I slip and fall, and I do, I know that the reason I don't pay the death penalty myself is because Christ chose to suffer that for me. Do you believe? By the way in case you haven't read it yet elsewhere, I love your writing. Very nice, very true.Take care, Wendy | ||
| Wendy Forsyth |
Sherry&Cindy, I believe you are right. But it is not just the commandments He wrote with His own(Jesus) finger on Sinai. Nor only the commands that are spoken of in the New Testament. But all His commands. None of His laws are made void. All are valid for reproach and teaching.(Paul). Why is it so difficult to accept that you may accept Christ's grace freely yet still obey all of His commands and give Him all that desires, our ultimate submission. Is that too scary. More than we can give? Nothing Jesus asks of me is too much. Not my life, not my family, not my job,house,money, nothing! The only person on this post that seems to completely throw away the law is Max. And in his writing I sense a struggle even tho' "thou protesteth too much". Am I correct? I'm certainly willing to listen. Looking forward to Heaven! Wendy | ||
| Max |
Wendy, I feel nothing but love toward you. But I still have this burning feeling that Adventists need to know that the law is Christ now in New Testament/Covenant times. In 2 Corinthians 3:6 Paul writes, "He [Christ] has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant -- NOT of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life." Yes, I believe, and I believe you believe. From your first post I've thought and felt that your heart was pure, and I still think and feel so. You are a precious child of God. And you could personally benefit by being freed from the thing that may threaten to kill you spiritually -- if what Paul writes is true: that the letter that you obey kills! Although from all men I am free, I made myself a slave to all so I could gain the more: I became to the Jews a Jew so I could gain the Jews. To those beneath the law as one beneath the law (not myself beneath the law) so those beneath the law I could gain. To those outside the law as one outside the law (not outside the law of God but iside the law of Christ) so those outside the law I could gain. I became to the weak ones weak so I could gain the weak. All things to all I have becopme so that at least I might save some. --Paul in 1 Corinthians 9:19-21, translated from Greek to English by Max Gordon Phillips. Grace, grace, God's grace, Max | ||
| Cindy |
Wendy... I agree, "nothing Jesus asks of me is too much." He knows that the desires of our hearts will only be filled by Him! Interestingly, my husband tells me that I used to treat him much worse when in actuality I was putting him ahead of God in my life! Now that I really see that 'the Lord is my life', he says I am much kinder... :) I suppose Max can answer for himself, :), but I don't see Max as 'throwing away the Law'; I think we now have the Reality of the Law revealed. It has been Personified and Fulfilled in the Person of Jesus! HE is the Exact Representation of the Law and He has expanded it so much to include even our motives and sins of ommission. Thus, Anger is as much a sin as Killing, Lust as much a sin as Adultery, etc. And, Praise God! His PERFECT life, and death, and resurrection is a gift to us. All we can do is acknowledge that we are sinners in need of His mercy always...living in gratitude to this wonderful gift of grace! The very limited one day in seven command to REST, given to the Israelites, is now gloriously fulfilled in our True Sabbath Rest, Jesus Christ; who now bids us come to HIM for Rest, seven days a week, 24 hours a day! Wendy, I appreciate your desire to follow Jesus. this is my desire, also. When you say, "I still choose to obey God's law to the letter of the law.." what exactly do you mean? I, too, believe we follow Christ's commands, but even he commanded those who were healed to go show themselves to the priests and offer the sacrifices needed. He participated in the Passover and various other Old Covenant rituals. Studying the differences between the Old And New Covenants has really made a huge difference in my life. Scripture has made much more sense and the place of Jesus has become central!! Blessings to you1 Always a debtor to Grace, Cindy | ||
| Wendy Forsyth |
Max, The letter of the Law only kills if we look to it for our salvation. When we obey with our hearts then it does not kill. From the spirit. I must tell you that I feel guided to this forum. Not because I may change someone's mind, only God can see a need and do that. But because it has caused me to look to the Bible for my understanding and not rely on what I was taught through Revelation seminars endlessly, Adventist schools endlessly, Adventist browbeating endlessly,Ad Nauseum! The Bible has done nothing but confirm what I believe and reinforced it by conversing with you all. We are not so far apart. Would you clarify tho',if you believe Heaven is within, do you deny the Second Coming in clouds of glory? Did you leave the Adventist church (all of you on the post) because you felt there was no hope for change? I have felt that way often, but I realized that there would be no hope for change if all those who felt God speaking to them left the church. Who would do the changing? I love this church and I believe in it's message. Alot needs to be done but someone has to stick around to do it. I don't mind being that one voice in an empty room. We have to be ready to be missionaries even to our own people. Yes, many people are still being taught that you are saved by the food you eat, the clothes you wear, the day you worship. Unless we show them how to have a love relationship with Jesus Christ how can we live with the knowledge and guilt that we did nothing. Will Christ free us from that also? No, He will say where were you when I was hungry, cold, tired, mislead, in bondage. I may not agree that I should give up keeping the law, but I wholly agree that if I don't have the right relationship with Jesus I am headed down the wrong road and am keeping it for the wrong reasons. Trust me when I say that I do have that relationship. I do look to Christ alone for my salvation. I do not believe anything I can do can save me. Trust me. All the love in my heart for all of my brothers and sisters in Christ- Wendy | ||
| Bruce H |
Wendy, PART 1 THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD here is a study for you THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD All of us ExAdventist were raised with the understanding that every time the bible mentioned Commandment (In the New Testament) that it was the Ten Commandments. We were never taught that there was a NEW Covenant that had its own commandments, but that it is just one big Covenant or a renewed or revised Covenant with some additions and subtractions that the Church or Big scholars or better yet prophets have the right to say were added or subtracted. God has always given commands but there is sometimes a problem and that is that sometimes we make God1s commands more then God, the same way me make animals he created god1s or religious symbols something to worship like the serpent on the brass pole. It is important what God has commanded but even more important is what is he commanding. Now let us go through the word of God and see what we can find. Joh 10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This COMMANDMENT have I received of my Father. Joh 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a COMMANDMENT, what I should say, and what I should speak. Joh 12:50 And I know that HIS COMMANDMENT is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak. Well here in these three texts we see that Jesus gets commandment from the father, and He gives them to us. Joh 13:34 A NEW COMMANDMENT I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. Here Jesus gives us a NEW Commandment this is not the Old Commandment in the Book of the Law look at the difference (commandment 418 Deut 6:5). This New Commandment is a New Commandment in the New Covenant. NEW= 1. not old recent. 2. never used or worn before. 3. just found or learned. 4. unfamiliar. 5. different from the former or the old. 6. recently arrived or established. Joh 14:31 But that the world may know that I love the Father; and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do. Arise, let us go hence. Joh 15:12 This is MY COMMANDMENT, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. Now look at your Bible notice that text John 15:12 is in RED (Jesus is saying it) so this is Jesus Commandment and He calls it HIS (MY) COMMANDMENT. Ac 1:2 Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given COMMANDMENTS unto the apostles whom he had chosen: So Jesus gave commandments (New Covenant Commandments) by the Holy Spirit to the Apostles. Ac 15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such COMMANDMENT: So as you can see teachers of the Law always like to add extra Laws, or bring in the Old Covenant but the New Covenant Commandment says no. 1Co 14:37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the COMMANDMENTS of the Lord. 1Ti 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the COMMANDMENT of God our Savior, and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope; Here Paul is saying that his writings are the Commandments of the Lord (New Covenant Commandments). Tit 1:3 But hath in due times manifested his word through PREACHING, which is committed unto me according to the COMMANDMENT of God our Savior; Again these are Jesus Again these are Jesus commandments (PREACHING). Heb 7:18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof. So the Old Covenant with its commandments going before are annulled because of the weakness and unprofitableness. 1Jo 4:21 And this COMMANDMENT have we from HIM, That he who loveth God love his brother also. So who is the him, it is Jesus Christ and His Commandments. 2Jo 1:4 I rejoiced greatly that I found of thy children walking in truth, as we have received a COMMANDMENT from the Father. 2Jo 1:5 And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another. 2Jo 1:6 And this is love, that we walk after his COMMANDMENTS. This is the COMMANDMENT, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it. So the Commandment it says, we had from the beginning, this is Jesus1s commandments, His New Covenant Commandments, and the beginning was when he was here and probably it was the mount of Beatitudes. Notice it is said YE HAVE HEARD well they were not alive when Moses gave the laws to the people but a lot of people were alive who heard Jesus talk Himself. They heard him give His New Commandment. End of part one Bruce Heinrich BH BH B | ||
| Wendy Forsyth |
Bruce, Jesus said "ye have heard" because the laws were read aloud by the priests in the temple. Do you honestly believe that Jesus said it as if He was the only one they had ever heard speak a law. I believe you have your chronology mixed up also. Twist as ye may, it doesn't fit. God Bless, Wendy I have noticed you have an offensive way of labeling your text as lessons, as if you are the only authority and none other may possibly be correct. I do not appreciate the style. | ||
| Bruce H |
Part 2 Commandments of God Let us Look at the New Covenant Commandments from the Mountain. Matt 5:21-22 21 YE HAVE HEARD THAT IT WAS SAID by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: (THIS IS OLD COVENANT COMMANDMENT #6 IN DECOLOGUE AND # 34 IN BOOK OF LAW) 22 BUT I SAY unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. So Jesus is saying that the Old Covenant Ten Commandments is not good enough that the standards are even higher so He compares the old commandment Ten Commandments and gives HIS New Covenant Commandment (BUT I SAY UNTO YOU). Notice that He is comparing it to the Big Ten which are part of all 613 commandments you will see as we go along. Notice that Jesus never calls the Old Covenant Commandments His, he says it like this 1) it is written in the Law 2) you have heard it was said 3) in the Law of Moses 4) In the Law Matt 5:27-28 27 YE HAVE HEARD THAT IT WAS SAID by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: ( THIS IS THE OLD COVENANT COMMANDMENT IN THE DECOLOGUE #7 AND # 35 IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW). 28 BUT I SAY unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. So Jesus on the Mountain gives a New Covenant Commandment, and raises the standard even higher for it is a better Covenant with better promises. (Heb 8:6). Notice that Again Jesus sets aside the Ten Commandments and replaces it with a better Commandment. Remember that if a Rabbi had been walking down a road and looked with lust at a young woman he would not have committed adultery with the Old Covenant Commandments. Matt 5:31-32 31 IT HATH BEEN SAID, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement: 32 BUT I SAY unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery. Jesus know goes after the Book of the Law to commandment # 579 Deut 24:1. Again He raises the standard in fact as you will see He raises them all the way. So Jesus replaces the Book of the Law with his New covenant commandment. Matt 5: 33-37 33 Again, YE HAVE HEARD THAT IT WAS SAID by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths: 34 BUT I SAY unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne: 35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King. 36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black. 37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil. Jesus again goes to the Book of the Law or Law of Moses and picks commandment # 226, and #227 Lev 19:12. Know this one he does not raise the standard but says don't make an oath at all. Could it be because He knows that we cannot keep them (I thought you had to become perfect). MATT 5:38-41 38 YE HAVE HEARD THAT IT HAS BEEN SAID, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: 39 BUT I SAY unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also. 41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. 42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away. Here Jesus states the Old Covenant Commandment which is Commandment # 524 (Deut 19:18-19) in the book of the Law and changes it also. Matt 5:43-45 43 YE HAVE HEARD THAT IT HAS BEEN SAID, Thou shalt love thy neighbor, and hate thine enemy. 44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. Now here Jesus is referring to the Great Commandment which is Commandment #243 in the book of the Law Lev 19:18, if you do not believe me look at the chain reference in your bible. The context of the verse, "You shall not take revenge or bear a grudge against your countrymen, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself," suggests that love is being commanded only toward one's countrymen. Leviticus 19:34 (the alien living with you) and Deut 10:19 command Israelites to love the stranger, that is the non-Israelite, as themselves but it is only toward those who live among the Isrealit community. Also Commandment # 561-562-563-564, which is found (Deut 23:3-10) I will state it for you. 1) Against Ammonites and Moabites ever becoming Hebrews. 2) Against concerning oneself with their well-being, The Ammonites and Moabites 3) Against hating Edomites and Egyptians. 4) In addition, there is the positive stipulation that Edomites and Egyptians can be admitted into the Israelite community in the third generation. He is know replacing this one and again raising the standard. Know you cannot hate your enemy or just love your neighbor but you must love all. So do you see the Big difference the Old says Love your neighbor the New say that ye Love one another. The Old say love as yourself the New say as Jesus loved us. Know here is the High Point and the point that most Old Covenant Christians seem to miss. The ultimate New Covenant Commandment. Matt 5:48 48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. Wow you mean God is not kidding I have to be perfect. YES. You may say well then nobody will make it, and I say on your own right. But with Jesus guess what, Heb 10:14 14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. So Jesus has perfected me forever even while he is in the process of sanctifying me, YES. So Jesus came to us and Gave us a New Covenant of Eternal Life and it has New Commandments and these are the ones that the Apostles are talking about in these texts. Mt 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. Know Adventist will say How dare you say this is the New Covenant Commandment (you see Old Covenant people Love the Old Covenant, Luke 5:36-39 especially 39), but I will prove this is the New Covenant Commandments because as we all know there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ (Rom 8:1) and what you have to understand you cannot be in the New Covenant unless you die to the OLD Covenant. Now notice what is says that the one who breaks one of the least commandments and teaches men so will be called what LEAST IN THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN. Know if you did this with the Old covenant you would be executed. Also notice where this text is it is right in the middle of the Mountain of Beatitudes where Jesus is giving HIS New Covenant Commandments. So this is the New Covenant Commandments not the old and we are not to teach others to break them. 1Th 4:2 For ye know what COMMANDMENTS we gave you by the Lord Jesus. 1Jo 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep HIS COMMANDMENTS. WHO'S COMMANDMENTS, HIS (Jesus). 1Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not HIS commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. WHO"S COMMANDMENTS, HIS (Jesus). Notice that is says the Truth is not in Him, remember under the New Covenant we have Jesus or the truth in our heart. 1Jo 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep HIS COMMANDMENTS, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. WHO'S COMMANDMENTS, HIS (Jesus). 1Jo 3:24 And he that keepeth HIS commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us. WHO'S COMMANDMENTS, HIS (Jesus). Notice it says dwelleth that is the New Covenant. 1Jo 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep HIS COMMANDMENTS. WHO'S COMMANDMENTS, HIS (Jesus). 1Jo 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep HIS COMMANDMENTS: and HIS COMMANDMENTS are not grievous. WHO'S COMMANDMENTS, HIS (Jesus). Remember his yoke is easy. 2Jo 1:6 And this is love, that we walk after HIS COMMANDMENTS. This is the COMMANDMENT, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it. WHO'S COMMANDMENTS, HIS (Jesus). Notice that they HEARD, could not be Moses. Re 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the COMMANDMENTS of God, and the FAITH IN JESUS. THOSE WHO HAVE FAITH IN JESUS ARE THE NEW COVENANT CHRISTIANS, NOTICE IT CALLES THEM SAINTS WHICH IS WHAT WE ARE IN CHRIST. Re 22:14 Blessed are they that do HIS COMMANDMENTS, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. WHO'S COMMANDMENTS, HIS (Jesus) Well you might say well Jesus also gave us the Old Covenant Commandments well let us see what Jesus says about the Old Covenant Ten commandments and Book of Law. YOU HAVE HEARD IT WAS SAID, Matt 5: 21,27,33,38,43 So it was said but, NOW I GIVE YOU A NEW COMMANDMENT, and, BUT I SAY UNTO YOU. Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; Know let me close with this. The Holy Spirit who indwells in us and is Gods Spirit is who gives us Commandments does not the Holy Spirit tell you that you must Love one another or should you argue about the Sabbath which is it? Bruce Heinrich bh bh bh bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb | ||
| Bruce H |
Wendy I am not trying to get out from under the Law. I love Jesus more than anything, and I am not just satisfied in giving him one day a week i want to give him all seven. I do not just want to give him 10 percent for tithes I want to give it all. I want to drink, sleep, eat, and breath Jesus. I do not want to argue over Old Laws that cannot save me I want to talk about HIM who has saved me!!! I would keep the Sabbath just as you do I would love too, the problem is finding one that does not have major problems with it. I have searched High and Low. And that brings me to a question for you. If God wants his Sabbath then why does he not BLESS it why does he curse it?????? WITH LOVE Bruce H | ||
| Wendy Forsyth |
right! we should not argue about the sabbath. I won't judge you for not keeping it( if it's the case) and you won't judge me for keeping it. Deal? Take care, Wendy | ||
| Bruce H |
Wendy Look up the very Last word for the Old Testament, Do you think that is a coincidence or is the God of this Great Book saying somthing. Wendy, I do not mean to be hard on you and I do believe that you to have a personel relationship with Jesus, How about telling us what he is doing in your life? Titus 3:9 it is a favorite of mine. Bruce Heinrich | ||
| Wendy Forsyth |
Okay Bruce you snuck one in on me by writing at the same time as me. Imagine. God did Bless the Sabbath day, He did not curse it! People have cursed it from the beginning. In what ways: -by ignoring it. -by changing it. -by abusing it. -by overtaxing it. By this I mean putting unhealthy requirements into it. I feel joy every time I know the Sabbath is coming.I think about Jesus all the time. As you can see I've spent alot of time on this today. 12 hours off and on. Don't let people discourage you in the church. You make your sabbath what you want it to be.Don't be bound by their requirements. Don't let them ruin your Sabbath rest any day of the week. With much love because He loved us first, Wendy | ||
| Bruce H |
----right! we should not argue about the sabbath. I won't judge you for not keeping it( if it's the case) and you won't judge me for keeping it. Deal? Take care, ----- Deal buy the way when I say study it does sound a little high and mighty, and you know as well as I do that pride is the biggest problem for a lot of us and especially for me, I pray daily for him to take my pride, and he is doing it but I must be patient and believe. Phil 1:6 Bruce Heinrich Bh Bh | ||
| Wendy Forsyth |
Bruce I believe you've got it with Malachi 4:4-6: "Remember the Law of Moses, My servant. Which I commanded him in Horeb for all Israel,With the statutes and judgements.Behold I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord. And he will turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the hearts of the children to their fathers, lest I come and strike the earth with a curse." Coincidence? If you desire the Sabbath then keep it. Having rest in Jesus is not exclusive to keeping the Sabbath day as your special day. He creates that desire in us. Only if more desired to have that rest every day of the week. Unfortunately most just put Him on and take Him off every week. Take care, Wendy | ||
| Bruce H |
Wendy I find it refreshing to have a grace oriented Sabatarian on our web. They are hard to find. As for the Sabbath I have many good past feeling about the Sabbath. The real problem is I have three Children and every Sabbath keeping church I have been to is legalistic and dry of the Holy Spirit, I have prayed to the Lord about this and I know that I must fellowship with those who are filled with the Holy Spirit for the Body of Christ is here on earth and is here and it is these people that I fellowship with. The Sabbath has been a real big interest of mine and I have done a lot and I mean a lot of study on it. I recomend that you do a study on it yourself. Br | ||
| Bruce H |
Wendy I have some books on the Sabbath both pro and Con if you are interested I will send you some just call 1-877-egw-myth and leave your number and I will call you and send you some. Buy the way book supporting the Sabbath are few and hard to get a hold of it may take me a while. I stoped giving out my library i lost to many books. Buy the way I have been thinking about a day of rest but it will not be Sabbath or Sunday I have found to many that fall under legalism for me I consider every day alike all for him. Bruce Heinrich B | ||
| Wendy Forsyth |
Bruce, I am just lately noticing the creeping in of my past in how I raise my children. I have three also and they are so tender. I want them to grow up knowing Christ as the Uncle Arthur books portray Him, with children climbing on His knees, sprawled on the grass at His feet, hugging Him spontaneously. If they grow up thinking as I and many others did that spirituality is nothing more than doing the right thing and being afraid to do the wrong thing, how will they feel free to run up to Him and say "I love you Jesus". I don't want them to have to search for the truth about grace I want them to grow up knowing it. I agree that you have to be careful where you put your kids, especially when you have been burned like we have. But that is why God put you in their lives, to filter what they learn. Don't keep them away from the things you love, make sure they know the truth and trust them to spread the gospel as missionaries within your own church. Children make the best witnesses. Sometimes they explain it cleare than others. Think of all the other children in Adventist churches who are growing up with a "salvation by food" mentality. Not to mention the adults. Most won't be receptive. But by living the example and speaking the gospel, some will be rescued. Follow the longing in your heart, trust the Holy Spirit speaking in you. Much compassion and understanding, Wendy | ||
| sherry |
Wendy, I think that if you can stay in SDAism, then do so. You know the will of the Father that that is what He'd have you do, then so do it. I knew that I had to leave - I had been so bound by Ellen's writings that I could not escape the bondage of guilt....nothing was good enough....and the gospel was twisted. I am thankful for my decision, even as it divides our home at this moment, I knew it was a necessary thing, and had spent much time (let's say years) in prayer regarding this. I left with great peace in my heart from God. I am rereading the Bible, and learning things I never knew. And again I say, understanding the covenants has really been a blessing. I am learning to follow the law of Christ, and more than that, I've got security in my salvation and an understanding of my sins all being forgiven at the cross - studying Hebrews has been liberating, and what can I say, Jesus is the Way. He loves me, and that astounds me. I see now that I am His child, and He has truthfully never left me nor forsaken me. I cannot tell you how many times I cried myself to sleep, terrified of death, and so scared that He was utterly disappointed with me and I was doomed. I've suffered with depression and suicidalness almost all my life literally! Some of it comes from my family of origin which had a lot of conditional love...and then coupled with SDAism, and what I studied in E.G. White left me destitute as well. If I only stuck with Desire of Ages, and Steps to Christ, I was fine...Your desire for your children is the same as mine for my children. And I guess, I am learning to be as a little child, learning to depend on Jesus more and more. Thank you for sharing and being here. God bless you, Wendy | ||
| Lydell |
Wendy, you asked why we left the church. I think for us it came down to this main issue. We had seen the lack of love for the lost in our congregation. We saw an almost complete lack of interest in or understanding of the gospel. We had come to realize that there was literally no opportunity anymore to share there, the minds were closed tight and locked shut. And more importantly, we had two small children. It dawned on us that to stay and raise our children in that environment was to testify to them, and to any of our friends who ever might want to visit our church, that we were approving that this was an example of what God intended church to be. We couldn't do that. It was NOT in any way what He ever intend church to be. So we had to get our children out of there. We left the denomination tho because we had gone back to truly only studying the Bible and saw all the doctrinal errors that were in the denomination. Because we see those, we don't want to be associated with the church at all. And mainly because we have been out of the church and a part of an honest to goodness real body of believers, we don't want to waste our time sitting under the teaching of gross doctrinal error. Many of us have come to realize that we were fooling ourselves by staying and trying to be a witness within the walls of the church. We did that ourselves for nearly 5 years. We realize now that within every SDA there is this little "protection" mechanism where if someone in a sabbath school class brings up a point that is contrary to the spoutings of EGW a wall immediately goes up and they stop listening. They are in an atmosphere where they are surrounded by those who are spouting EGWisms. Where they are bombarded with EGW's version of the scriptures, and any seed you might want to plant is immediate choked by weeds being planted all around it. In short, it seems that those who come out of the darkness into the light do so because of things they hear outside of the walls of the church, not inside them. Have we then washed our hands of SDA's? Not hardly. That's what we are doing on the Internet and when we are in contact with SDA friends. | ||
| Lydell |
Wendy, you asked why we left the church. I think for us it came down to this main issue. We had seen the lack of love for the lost in our congregation. We saw an almost complete lack of interest in or understanding of the gospel. We had come to realize that there was literally no opportunity anymore to share there, the minds were closed tight and locked shut. And more importantly, we had two small children. It dawned on us that to stay and raise our children in that environment was to testify to them, and to any of our friends who ever might want to visit our church, that we were approving that this was an example of what God intended church to be. We couldn't do that. It was NOT in any way what He ever intend church to be. So we had to get our children out of there. We left the denomination tho because we had gone back to truly only studying the Bible and saw all the doctrinal errors that were in the denomination. Because we see those, we don't want to be associated with the church at all. And mainly because we have been out of the church and a part of an honest to goodness real body of believers, we don't want to waste our time sitting under the teaching of gross doctrinal error. Many of us have come to realize that we were fooling ourselves by staying and trying to be a witness within the walls of the church. We did that ourselves for nearly 5 years. We realize now that within every SDA there is this little "protection" mechanism where if someone in a sabbath school class brings up a point that is contrary to the spoutings of EGW a wall immediately goes up and they stop listening. They are in an atmosphere where they are surrounded by those who are spouting EGWisms. Where they are bombarded with EGW's version of the scriptures, and any seed you might want to plant is immediate choked by weeds being planted all around it. In short, it seems that those who come out of the darkness into the light do so because of things they hear outside of the walls of the church, not inside them. Have we then washed our hands of SDA's? Not hardly. That's what we are doing on the Internet and when we are in contact with SDA friends. | ||
| BMorgan |
Lydell, Great post. You said: "We realize now that within every SDA there is this little "protection" mechanism where if someone in a sabbath school class brings up a point that is contrary to the spoutings of EGW a wall immediately goes up and they stop listening. They are in an atmosphere where they are surrounded by those who are spouting EGWisms. Where they are bombarded with EGW's version of the scriptures, and any seed you might want to plant is immediate choked by weeds being planted all around it." I agree with you fully. If I may add;they become distrustful of you and scritinize everything you say so they will not be deceived. You also wrote: ... it seems that those who come out of the darkness into the light do so because of things they hear outside of the walls of the church, not inside them." Yes, again you are right. There is no way you can stay after hearing things outside the walls. You become restless, and tired trying to contort your mind to fit it in with or loop it around the walls of "protection" within the church. BMorgan | ||
| Max |
Hi Wendy, You are so precious I just can't get over it! When you said, "The only person on this post that seems to completely throw away the law is Max," you paid me the greatest compliment ever paid by anyone on this website. Wendy, before we go any further, I think you need to know something about Bruce. He has Jesus Christ in his heart. He really does. And I know you do also. You don't need to say "trust me" on that. I understood that from the beginning. We'll do more on throwing out the law if you're willing. Love in Christ to you, Max | ||
| George |
To those Above, It says that if you believe in Him yu will have everlasting life. It does not say if you believe in Him and keep the sabbath and you will be saved. It says if you love Me keep my commandments. But does it say, if you love Me and don't keep my commandments you will be lost? Just a thought. What do you think? George |
