| Author | Message | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 1751 Registered: 7-2004  |
Address the issues I raised in post 1733. Look at each quote from the article that I posted along with the concerns that I expressed about the quote. I asked you for additional insights onneach of these at the start of the post, so although not worded as individual questions, those comments form my questions about this teaching. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3899 Registered: 10-2004  |
Rick, I don't dispute your conclusions about those quotes. I agree with you that the author did not provide any examples of the exact same thing elsewhere in Scripture. And as I said, I don't know where the idea originated or if there are any recorded examples of it in Jewish literature. But it sounds like we agree that Jesus was quoting Psalm 22:1. So are you saying that He was quoting it out of context? And that in spite of the fact that the rest of the Psalm so clearly describes His crucifixion, etc.? Does the rest of the Psalm not apply to Him? Psalm 22, as with so many other psalms (as the CT author pointed out), starts out with a complaint and then ends in hope and praise. The first verse cannot just be isolated out of context by itself. I don't see how it depends completely on whether or not it was a common practice for Jews to refer to whole Psalms by quoting the first line. Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on April 10, 2012) | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3900 Registered: 10-2004 |
"Instead of answers to those questions I get told I might as well go back to Ellen White." What I said is that if Jesus had to experience exactly what the wicked will experience, then we (you, me, all of us) might as well go back to Ellen's DOA theology about the "portals of the tomb." I stand by that statement. It's not emotion-laden rhetoric, it's just a matter of fact. Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on April 10, 2012) | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 13577 Registered: 12-2003  |
I don't think believing Jesus became sin and became a curse means He suffered exactly what the wicked will experience. In fact, I don't think there's really any equality there. Jesus suffered for the sins of the world, and all who are saved have their sin rolled onto Him. If that fact meant He had to experience what the wicked experience, we would have a problem: He would have to experience multiple eternal deaths. Obviously that's not the case! Jesus said He would be with the thief in paradise that day, and when He died He committed His spirit into the Father's hands. Obviously His spirit was alive, and He was not separated spiritually from the Father. But somehow He did experience the weight and burden of death. We're simply not told HOW that worked. His cry to the Father had to mean something. Of course He systematically fulfilled Scripture—but as I see it, Scripture was written to foreshadow the reality of Jesus' life, death, and resurrection, not the reverse. In other words, Jesus didn't come and then set about to fulfill Scripture. He fulfilled Scripture because it foretold what He WOULD DO. Jesus' being a propitiation in His blood (Rom 3:26-27) is clearly something much weightier and more impacting than the eternal suffering of the wicked. The eternal deaths of the wicked is never "propitiation". But Jesus became sin, became a curse, and offered the acceptable sacrifice, thus being a propitiation for our sin and satisfying God's wrath toward sin. I don't think we can compare what Jesus experienced and what the wicked will experience. Jesus' experience was unique. And I don't see any way to avoid understanding the words to mean what their literal meaning suggests according to a normal reading of the passages. I read that Jesus became what the Father hated as He became the propitiation for us. He turned away the Father's wrath from us by taking it as He became sin and a curse. But this idea doesn't mean that He suffered exactly what the wicked suffer. They experience the consequence of sin. Jesus' didn't. He took God's wrath FOR sin. That's different from experiencing sin's consequences. Not sure what it all means--and for sure Jesus didn't cease to exist, nor did His sinless spirit die. But He did experience God's wrath for sin, and He felt the distance on the cross. At least that's what the words say to me! Colleen | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3901 Registered: 10-2004 |
Colleen,
I wasn't trying to equate those things. That part of my post(s) was not in response to the discussion about becoming sin/a curse, but was actually in response to Rick's statement in post #1733 about "...if He took the punishment that we deserve..." Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on April 10, 2012) | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 1752 Registered: 7-2004 |
Jeremy, You have been the only one to say that Jesus had to experience or suffer exactly what we deserve. It seems that you have made a strawman out of the concerns others have with your position. | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 1753 Registered: 7-2004 |
Jeremy, Let's start with the core claim of the article. It claims tha Jesus isn't really saying that He is experiencing (whether as a feeling through His human emotions as Chris and Colleen have suggested or throuh someething else we do not understand) being forsaken.
So the article, and it appears you as well, are telling us that Jesus' words mean something very different than what they appear. Few people are going to accept that Jesus' words don't mean just what they say unless there is compelling evidence to support that claim. The author presents the following evidence: That Jesus was making a clear reference to the entire Psalm because the Jews referred to book by their first word; however, Jesus didn't use the first word He used an entire phrase and the author gave no evidence of anyone using phrases to reference an entire book That Jesus was doing the same thing we He said "It is written" or "You have heard it said" rather than quoting a chapter and verse. However, in these cases Jesus selected the exact verse that had the message He wanted to convey, He was not selecting the first verse of a book as a general reference to some of the surrounding material. That Jesus had done this before when He read from Isa as recorded in Luke 4. However, in this case Jesus again wasn't referencing one thing with a quote from elsewhere in the book, He was reading exactly the message He was conveying. His words meant exactly what they said. The claims of the article are built on having reasons for those claims. If the reasoning underlying the claims is incorrect, as I believe I have plainly shown, then you can not legitimately make the claim without new or additional evidence. That is what I asked you for in my first reply, if you are proclaiming that the articles conclusions are valid then provide the additional information needed that would show this is a pattern elsewhere in Scripture. It reminds me of the SDA argument about the comma placement in "Truly I was to you today". A plain reading of the passage makes "today" an awkward inclusion unless Jesus really means "Today you will be with me". And there are no other recorded cases of Jesus saying "Truly I say to you today" while there are plenty of examples of "Truly I say to you." I am looking for the other Scriptural examples that would say reading this in some other way than the most apparent meaning of the passage is warranted. No one is questioning whether Psalm 22 is a Messianic Psalm or whether Jesus quoted verse 1. The only question is whether by quoting verse 1 Jesus truly meant what is said in verse 1 rather than a cherry picking of later verses in the Psalm. Why not conclude that Jesus is pleading with the Father to rescue Him and save His life because that is what David is saying in verses 20 & 21 of the Psalm? | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 1754 Registered: 7-2004 |
Exactly, Colleen. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 7882 Registered: 9-2006  |
Colleen says: Of course He systematically fulfilled Scripture—but as I see it, Scripture was written to foreshadow the reality of Jesus' life, death, and resurrection, not the reverse. In other words, Jesus didn't come and then set about to fulfill Scripture. He fulfilled Scripture because it foretold what He WOULD DO. I would have to quickly agree with that, prophecy is always forward looking in light of old testament prophecy. I think assuming we can know a sinless saviors condition as our sins are rolled onto him is a far reach, yet this one thing I can know..that every time I read this passage of scripture I can read it with amazement, love and praise to him who those praises rightfully belong. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3902 Registered: 10-2004 |
Rick,
Let me restate the author's quote that you posted and see if you have a different reaction: In Psalm 22, is David saying "I have been forsaken by God"? No. It is clear from reading the rest of the Psalm that he is not saying that.
Exactly my point. The entire psalm is a Messianic psalm. Jeremy | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3905 Registered: 10-2004 |
Colleen,
Actually, the New Testament itself says on many different occasions that that was exactly the case: (All verses are NASB) Matthew 1:22 Now all this took place to fulfill what was spoken by the Lord through the prophet: Matthew 2:15 He remained there until the death of Herod. This was to fulfill what had been spoken by the Lord through the prophet: “OUT OF EGYPT I CALLED MY SON.” Matthew 2:23 and came and lived in a city called Nazareth. This was to fulfill what was spoken through the prophets: “He shall be called a Nazarene.” Matthew 4:13-14 13 and leaving Nazareth, He came and settled in Capernaum, which is by the sea, in the region of Zebulun and Naphtali. 14 This was to fulfill what was spoken through Isaiah the prophet: Matthew 5:17 “Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. Matthew 8:17 This was to fulfill what was spoken through Isaiah the prophet: “ HE HIMSELF TOOK OUR INFIRMITIES AND CARRIED AWAY OUR DISEASES.” Matthew 12:15-17 15 But Jesus, aware of this, withdrew from there. Many followed Him, and He healed them all, 16 and warned them not to tell who He was. 17 This was to fulfill what was spoken through Isaiah the prophet: Matthew 13:34-35 34 All these things Jesus spoke to the crowds in parables, and He did not speak to them without a parable. 35 This was to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet: “I WILL OPEN MY MOUTH IN PARABLES; I WILL UTTER THINGS HIDDEN SINCE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD.” Matthew 21:3-4 3 If anyone says anything to you, you shall say, ‘The Lord has need of them,’ and immediately he will send them.” 4 This took place to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet: Matthew 26:52-56 52 Then Jesus *said to him, “Put your sword back into its place; for all those who take up the sword shall perish by the sword. 53 Or do you think that I cannot appeal to My Father, and He will at once put at My disposal more than twelve legions of angels? 54 How then will the Scriptures be fulfilled, which say that it must happen this way?” 55 At that time Jesus said to the crowds, “Have you come out with swords and clubs to arrest Me as you would against a robber? Every day I used to sit in the temple teaching and you did not seize Me. 56 But all this has taken place to fulfill the Scriptures of the prophets.” Then all the disciples left Him and fled. Mark 14:49 Every day I was with you in the temple teaching, and you did not seize Me; but this has taken place to fulfill the Scriptures.” Luke 22:37 For I tell you that this which is written must be fulfilled in Me, ‘ AND HE WAS NUMBERED WITH TRANSGRESSORS’; for that which refers to Me has its fulfillment.” Luke 24:44 Now He said to them, “ These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.” John 12:38 This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet which he spoke: “ LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT? AND TO WHOM HAS THE ARM OF THE LORD BEEN REVEALED?” John 13:18 I do not speak of all of you. I know the ones I have chosen; but it is that the Scripture may be fulfilled, ‘ HE WHO EATS MY BREAD HAS LIFTED UP HIS HEEL AGAINST ME.’ John 15:25 But they have done this to fulfill the word that is written in their Law, ‘ THEY HATED ME WITHOUT A CAUSE.’ John 17:12 While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled. John 18:8-9 8 Jesus answered, “I told you that I am He; so if you seek Me, let these go their way,” 9 to fulfill the word which He spoke, “Of those whom You have given Me I lost not one.” John 18:31-32 31 So Pilate said to them, “Take Him yourselves, and judge Him according to your law.” The Jews said to him, “We are not permitted to put anyone to death,” 32 to fulfill the word of Jesus which He spoke, signifying by what kind of death He was about to die. John 19:24 So they said to one another, “ Let us not tear it, but cast lots for it, to decide whose it shall be”; this was to fulfill the Scripture: “THEY DIVIDED MY OUTER GARMENTS AMONG THEM, AND FOR MY CLOTHING THEY CAST LOTS.” John 19:28 After this, Jesus, knowing that all things had already been accomplished, to fulfill the Scripture, *said, “ I am thirsty.” John 19:36 For these things came to pass to fulfill the Scripture, “ NOT A BONE OF HIM SHALL BE BROKEN.” The ones that I have bolded are especially clear, especially John 19:28 where it specifically says that He said something in order to fulfill a Messianic psalm, Psalm 69:21, and also Psalm 22 verse 15! This also sort of gets into what we believe about God's sovereignty and whether things occur because He has decreed them and ordained them to take place. Acts 4:27-28 (NASB) says: "For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur." Jeremy | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3906 Registered: 10-2004 |
Rick and Colleen, I am not saying that Jesus' cry had no meaning. I am saying that it had the same meaning as the psalmist's cry. I think that this quote which I have posted before probably says it best:
As a sidenote, I find it interesting that the Catholic Church would never allow such heresy as Protestants have allowed to creep into the church, with regard to Christology. Also, as I show on my website, I have given contextual evidence from Matthew 27 which shows that Jesus was indeed referring His hearers to the 22nd Psalm. Quoting from my website:
Is it really just a coincidence that Matthew 27:43 quotes Psalm 22:8 just 3 verses before Matthew 27:46 quotes from Psalm 22 also? Or is Jesus (and Matthew's inspired account) telling everyone that they (the chief priests, scribes, and elders), as well as Himself and all the things that had happened at the Cross, were fulfilling the 22nd Psalm? It disturbs me that there is always so much opposition to the fact that Jesus is both God and man and therefore could not be separated from God--even from some who have said they agreed with this position in the past. Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on April 11, 2012) | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3907 Registered: 10-2004 |
Rick wrote:
If you're not saying that He had to suffer exactly what we deserve, then why should we assume that He had to suffer a certain specific thing that we deserve ("separation from God") in the absence of any Scripture saying that He suffered such? Jeremy | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 1762 Registered: 7-2004 |
But there is no evidence that Jesus was referencing the entire Psalm. That is the fundamentally flawed assumption that the article makes that neither you not the article has been able to provide evidence to support. | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 1763 Registered: 7-2004 |
Because Scripture says that He suffered being forsaken by the Father, a fact that you want to brush under the rug and ignore. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 13580 Registered: 12-2003 |
This whole reality is something God has not explained. I agree with Jeremy that Jesus' spirit did not die, nor was the Trinity separated. Even during the crucifixion and Jesus' death, "in Him all things [held] together" (Col 1:17). I have to take the words of Scripture to mean what they say, however, and I can't try to make an equation to express it. Somehow Jesus experienced separation, even though from God's perspective, Jesus was always His beloved Son, even when He became our sin and became a curse. As Charles Wesley said,
Colleen | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3909 Registered: 10-2004 |
Rick,
So you think that He was quoting verse 1 out of context? And I did give some evidence that He was referencing the entire Psalm in my post #3906 above. Jeremy | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 1764 Registered: 7-2004 |
So Jeremy, if He was referencing the entire Psalm, as you clearly claim, was He asking the Father to spare Him the death He faced, because Psalm 22 includes that:
Or are you insisting that we cherry pick which verses of Psalm He meant and which He didn't? Furthermore, He was not taking verse 1 out of context just because He wasn't referencing everything in the Psalm. Unless you are going to contend that David never felt forsaken at any point either. What disturbs me are your false dichotomies and accusations towards your brothers and sisters in Christ. You present your viewpoint and then claim that anyone not accepting your view is siding with EGW. You present your viewpoint and that claim that people are opposed to Jesus being both God and man. What I am opposed to is claiming that very straightforward words in Scriptue supposedly mean the exact opposite of what any normal reading would indicate. If Jesus didn't experience being forsaken at some level, even if it was only a human emotion not based in reality, then I find it hard to accept that He would say what He did. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3911 Registered: 10-2004 |
Rick, Didn't He ask the Father to spare Him from death in the Garden of Gethsemane? If you would like to argue that some of the verses do not apply to Jesus, then go ahead. But then you would be "cherry picking," according to your own words.
He would be taking it out of context because the Psalm, as is the common structure of the Psalms, begins with a complaint but ends with hope and praise and with the psalmist making it clear that he knows that he has not been forsaken (as in separated from/abandoned by God). Thus, just the complaint by itself with no other meaning, is out of context. And which is it, was He actually forsaken or was it only that He "felt forsaken"? If it was only the latter, then how is that taking the "literal meaning" or "normal reading"? Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on April 11, 2012) | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 1765 Registered: 7-2004 |
Colleen, To add to the Wesley quote, here is one from Luther on the subject-
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