| Author | Message | ||
| Pegg Registered user Username: Pegg Post Number: 612 Registered: 2-2006 |
My apologies if this article has already been discussed here. It is published on the official site of the Northern England Conference of Seventh-day Adventists. The author, who is credentialed as a GC Associate director, argues that in misrepresenting itself as "Christian" SDA has left its youth vulnerable to proselytization by other religions, specifically Islam. In part, he states: "Emanating from our desire to be accepted by mainline Christianity, we have presented ourselves as Christians, defended Christian history and its heritage, and preferred to be seen as presenting the gospel of Christianity.Hummm...KK | ||
| Rossbondreturns Registered user Username: Rossbondreturns Post Number: 350 Registered: 10-2009  |
I feel a article of my own coming on with the exact same title. Since the answer to the question asked by the articles title is quite clear when looking at Adventism from the outside. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3879 Registered: 10-2004  |
WOW! So he is admitting that presenting themselves "as Christians" is knowingly deceptive! "We do this in spite of the fact that we know that we are different from mainline Christianity in fundamental areas." Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on March 12, 2012) | ||
| Gcfrankie Registered user Username: Gcfrankie Post Number: 880 Registered: 1-2007 |
It is about time someone who is a GC Associate Director or higher up is honest. Now if just the rest of them would be honest. I would like to be a fly on the wall when they have to meet Jesus and have to explain this. Gail | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 7802 Registered: 9-2006  |
How stupid can one person be? He says, "We are not Christians, we are Christ followers." Note the four pillars of the Christian church. 1. Believe that Christ died and rose the third day. 1 Cor 15:1 and Romans 10: 9,10 2. Sola fide, by faith alone. 3. Christ deity. 4. Absolute and complete atonement for our sins at the cross. I would say that they closely resemble Muslim more than Christianity. He said they were also 'people of the book', but what book...Harry Potter? River | ||
| Marcell Registered user Username: Marcell Post Number: 93 Registered: 4-2004 |
Wow. Just, wow! | ||
| 1john2v27nlt Registered user Username: 1john2v27nlt Post Number: 390 Registered: 5-2009 |
River, I know that was not a serious question; but 'the book' must be the Clear Word because although they claim to be 'people of the book' & sola scriptura, & 'heirs of the reformation' the signature doctrines cannot be supported from the bible alone. So they have published a horror that mingles the false teachings right into the words of scripture. or it is the Remnant Study Bible - for the same reason. J9 | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 7803 Registered: 9-2006 |
Now here's a quote for ya! "by claiming Christianity as our primary identity and defending it, we place ourselves on a weak philosophical foundation." Or in other words a politically incorrect foundation. Would you say they desire the popularity vote? "Now boys, lets get out here an get the popularity vote in and to heck with being identified with Christ and his cross. Lets leave that to the Sunday goer's and Pork eaters!"  River | ||
| Skeeter Registered user Username: Skeeter Post Number: 1850 Registered: 12-2007  |
"people of THE book" They ARE indeed people of the 'book' but it is the WRONG book. "The Great Controversy between Christ and Satan" is their "book" ! It is that book that is their guide more than any other. | ||
| Skeeter Registered user Username: Skeeter Post Number: 1851 Registered: 12-2007 |
River, your last post is making me crave a BLT ! | ||
| Marcell Registered user Username: Marcell Post Number: 94 Registered: 4-2004 |
This seems to just be another case of the Adventist mindset that how things appear are more important than how they really are. As Adventist have become more and more upwardly mobile, it seems they crave more approval from everyone, mainstream Chrisianity, the "world", now Muslims. Which might be helpful if they were willing to actually take a look at real change. but is seems there is this slippery 'redefining' of themselves (by the organization) to morph into whatever seems expedient at the moment. I'd be curious as to what 'mainstream SDA's' think of this. | ||
| Pegg Registered user Username: Pegg Post Number: 613 Registered: 2-2006 |
Anyone else having trouble with the link? I've tried it from 3 different computers and can't get it to go through. The last time I see a post in which I can determine that the person (likely) just read the link was 3/12/12 at 3:52 PM (Eastern Standard Time + Daylight Savings Time). Very weird! | ||
| Rossbondreturns Registered user Username: Rossbondreturns Post Number: 351 Registered: 10-2009 |
Well that's one way to silence someone. That said I have a tab opened from before they had this "problem" so I still have the entire article. | ||
| Pegg Registered user Username: Pegg Post Number: 614 Registered: 2-2006 |
I'm no conspiracy theorist, but that is creepy! Feels like someone's looking over my shoulder.  How on earth did they do it SO fast? I had made a post here, on the Closed Formers FB Group and on CARM. The latest post I saw was on CARM. Are you able to repost the article here, Ross? All I have is a link on my favs list. ~~ Thanks | ||
| Mkfound Registered user Username: Mkfound Post Number: 176 Registered: 1-2011 |
I haven't seen the article, but from the quotes you are posting, this type of thing is fodder for anyone opposed to sdaism. I think either an sda, who might have a problem with not being 'Christian' or a former saying, 'yes, we knew it' wrote to the editor and commented. Then swift damage control, let's make the article disappear. | ||
| Pegg Registered user Username: Pegg Post Number: 615 Registered: 2-2006 |
If my memory serves me right (and that's all I have to go by at the moment!), the article was first posted on 3/29/11. It's been sitting up there for almost a year. Apparently not one SDA has "complained" about it (if that's what happened) prior to this. Honestly, if I was SDA, I'd be pretty hot to know how this happened. | ||
| Pegg Registered user Username: Pegg Post Number: 616 Registered: 2-2006 |
A friend has just told me that he can't even get the root link to work (what he said -- I'm a dork!!). He says it may mean that the entire website is down at the moment. | ||
| Rossbondreturns Registered user Username: Rossbondreturns Post Number: 352 Registered: 10-2009 |
Here's the text of the article that i copied and pasted into OpenOffice...sorry for any formatting issues. UK Adventists convert to Islam – why? 2011-03-29 00:00 (comments: 0) Petras Bahadur, SEC Adventist Muslim Relations director and GC Associate director, discusses the role of Adventist identity in retaining our youth, and relating to Muslims about the end-time movement. Islamic growth Few of us realize just how rapidly the world population of Muslims is growing. Muslim Population Growth notes the following in this regard: ‘As of 2011, it is predicted that the world's Muslim population will grow twice as fast as non-Muslims over the next 20 years.’ For almost 1,400 years Islam was a distant religion with little impact on the West. Today the situation is far different. Muslims have migrated to the West, and in many places their religion is now intertwined with the fabric of western society. In the US, the same report states ‘that the Muslim-American population has been growing rapidly as a result of immigration, a high birth rate, and conversion.’2 It also highlights the fact that the population of Muslims in Europe ‘has more than doubled in the past 30 years and will have doubled again by 2015. In Brussels, the top seven baby boys' names recently were Mohamed, Adam, Rayan, Ayoub, Mehdi, Amine and Hamza.’3 Kevin Brice of Swansea University has done research that shows that the number of people converting to Islam has risen from about 60,000 in 2001 to about 100,000 in 2010.4 This group includes successful white women such as Tony Blair’s sister-in-law, the ‘journalist and broadcaster Lauren Booth, 43 – Cherie Blair's sister’, who ‘now wears a hijab whenever she leaves her home.’5 Adventists convert to Islam So Islam is not a religion that is far away from us any more – it is very much a part of European society. In fact, during the past few years we have had reports of some Adventist young people in the UK finding a spiritual haven in the Muslim faith. A few weeks ago, I was phoned by an Adventist who was concerned about his brother who has become a Muslim, and who recently converted their younger brother as well.Within one Adventist church alone, three Adventist youth have become Muslims in the last couple of years! The Issue of identity So we can see that Islam is not only an attraction for Westerners generally, including Christians, but for Adventists as well.The question is why? Why would an Adventist young person find Islam an attractive spiritual option? I believe the answer is two-fold: a) There are those that find Islam attractive because the Christian framework no longer provides them with meaning in their lives; and b), the Muslim religion provides them a new identity and seems to provide them a deeper meaning in life. This religion provides for converts a new value system, that is not only spiritual and moral, but also intertwined with the culture of hospitality and care for one another. By now you must be asking ‘how is it that Adventist who converts to Islam didn’t find such identity and security as an Adventist?’ ‘Why did he or she have to consider a new Muslim identity in the first place?’ Such a move was probably not sparked by personal curiosity or an interest in religious research – it was more likely caused by a challenge from a Muslim friend at work or in school. By asking the relevant questions, the Muslim friend caused the Adventist to begin doubting his belief system. Then, under the influence of this friend, the Adventist begins to ‘discover’ the new Islamic values that appear clear and logical when explained to him. A value system that is intertwined with behaviour (hospitality and brotherly love) and logical understanding of truth. Inadequate identity The question we must now ask is: What was the problem with his previous identity, that he wanted, or needed to, discover a new one? It is my contention that such members have a misunderstood or incorrectly positioned religious identity. This identity is based upon a Christian religious framework that has historical baggage. Adventists have tried hard to align themselves closely with mainline Christianity, and avoid the ‘sectarian’ stigma. Within this framework, we have come to consider a Roman Catholic as our ‘brother in faith’, while a Muslim or a non-Christian person is regarded only as a ‘brother in humanity’. Emanating from our desire to be accepted by mainline Christianity, we have presented ourselves as Christians, defended Christian history and its heritage, and preferred to be seen as presenting the gospel of Christianity. We do this in spite of the fact that we know that we are different from mainline Christianity in fundamental areas.We ignore those differences, however, and continue to use the same general identity as other Christians. A Muslim’s definition In the Muslim mind, however, the term ‘Christian’ still carries a lot of negative baggage. They define Christians very negatively as people who eat pork, drink alcohol, and lead largely secular and immoral lifestyles, strongly influenced by Hollywood’s productions and the western media in general - which appear to consistently undermine good value systems. They also view Christians as those who have crusaded against Islam in the past, and who are still doing it today, particularly in places like Iraq and Afghanistan! So when the young Adventist is challenged by a Muslim concerning his faith, and he begins to defend ‘Christianity’, he may find himself unable to do so successfully! The Muslim will point out the failures and inconsistencies of historic, mainstream Christianity. He will expose the harshness and brutality with which denominations have opposed each other; the unconditional support that state churches have given to cruel and unconstitutional governments; and the manner in which conquered and colonized populations have suffered in the name of Christ! Which identity should we defend? Even though, as Adventists, we do not ascribe to, or support these excesses, by claiming Christianity as our primary identity and defending it, we place ourselves on a weak philosophical foundation. In my opinion, our primary identity should be that we are ‘followers of Christ’ and are the ‘People of the Book’ and being an end-time movement we call ourselves, Adventists! As followers of Christ and the Bible, we reject certain ‘Christian’ teachings that are un-Christian and certain practices that are unbiblical (such as the day of worship, the eating of unclean foods, secret rapture… etc); in reality we would be better off defending Christ rather than such aspects of Christianity. We would be better off presenting the Bible to a Muslim rather than Christianity per se. Is it better to call ourselves Christians or Followers of Christ, or to defend Christianity (and everything it entails) or to defend the Bible as the criterion. For Muslims the Quran is clear in Surah 3.55 that ‘those who follow Jesus are superior to those who reject the faith.’ So even the Quran affirms that to be a follower of Jesus is the right thing to do. Moreover, in the Quran the term used for those who follow the Biblical scriptures is ‘People of the Book’ as recorded in Surah 3.113 and Surah 29.46 (and many other verses). So ‘People of the Book’is also a term that is quite correct for us to use. In reality, we know what we mean when we refer to ourselves as Christians – basically we are followers of Christ. However, if that term means something so radically different, and offensively negative, to someone we are witnessing to because of a historical baggage, then we really aught to consider using a term that better addresses who we are and takes away any negative connotations. Either use the terms that give correct the definition of who we are such as ‘followers of Jesus’, ‘People of the Book’, ‘End-time movement of God’ and ‘Adventists’, or use the term Christian by explaining the correct meaning and accepting that historically Roman paganism and Greek mythology has had a negative influence. Our identity is powerful As Adventists we need to understand the beauty of what the Lord has done. We are his final bulwark against universal apostasy – the bearers of his final message to the world (Revelation 14).We are the ‘People of the Book’ and our very name reminds the world that his day is the seventh-day Sabbath, and that he is soon to return. As Adventist we promote a lifestyle that is endorsed by God. We believe that certain foods are unclean according to Leviticus 11, including pork. We avoid alcohol and encourage a vegetarian diet. We promote biblical morality and right living, but not at the expense of God’s saving grace. Christ and his salvation are the foundations of our faith. We do not ascribe to a lifestyle of works but live in a way that demonstrates our unconditional love and commitment to God. As Jesus said ‘If you love me, keep my commandments’, we understand that if we are saved then our lives need to reflect his values. Like the Muslims we are also a universal brotherhood – a vast global community where members and visitors alike may find fellowship, practical care and brotherly love. When this positive Adventist identity is shared with our youth they will no longer be uncertain about who they are or where they belong. Neither will they hesitate to share this identity with their Muslim friends and acquaintances. 1. Muslim Population Growth, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_population_growth 2. Muslims in America – A Statistical Portrait, 18 December 2008, http://www.america.gov/st/peopleplace-english/2008/December/20081222090246jmnamdeirf0.4547083.html 3. The Growing Muslim Population in Europe, August 08, 2009 http://ztruth.typepad.com/ztruth/2009/08/the-growing-muslim-population-in-europe.html 4. Boom in UK Converts to Islam, Al Jazeerah, 05 January 2011, http://english.aljazeera.net/news/europe/2011/01/201115141940879721.html 5. Guardian, Sunday 24 October 2010 14.25 BST, http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2010/oct/24/lauren-booth-converts-to-islam Petras Bahadur- SEC Adventist Muslim Relations director and GC Associate director | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 9682 Registered: 3-2004  |
I cannot get to the original link so I was doing an internet search and found this. It is written by a man who was an SDA evangelist who became Muslim. He mentions another SDA evangelist who became Muslim also. http://www.imanway.com/en/showthread.php?t=1487 | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 13500 Registered: 12-2003  |
Wow. They betray that they have no understanding of being born again. They can't explain or defend Christianity because to them it is all philosophy and ideas, practices and doctrines and tradition...they are not born again. A true Christian will be able to see the difference between Muslim belief and the personal and legal reality of Christianity. I find it quite fascinating that in order to protect their young from Islam, they are advocating a return to more historical truthfulness: "We are not Christians." Just wow. Colleen | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 1886 Registered: 3-2009 |
I had no problem getting to the link. Hec | ||
| Nowisee Registered user Username: Nowisee Post Number: 1096 Registered: 5-2009 |
I got it, too. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 9691 Registered: 3-2004 |
Adventism is all about the intellect and how they feel. It is not about the spirit because they don't believe each of us has a spirit that is born dead and made alive when we accept Jesus Christ. Diana |
