| Author | Message | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3864 Registered: 10-2004  |
Phil Bubar's talk this morning was very, very good. He brought out some excellent truths that formers and transitioning Adventists need to learn, especially with regard to God and His sovereignty, etc. I was disappointed, however, that he seems to be misinformed about what Adventism teaches about the Trinity. He said that the issue of there only being one God was "not the issue" (in other words, that we were not taught wrongly about this in Adventism). In reality, however, that is the only "issue"--the only problem that current Adventism ("officially") has with the doctrine of the Trinity! They do not believe that God is one. Adventism denies that God is one being/essence and instead teaches that there are three separate (physical!) divine beings (three gods/tritheism). Unfortunately, this vital, essential point for transitioning and former Adventists never seems to be presented clearly at FAF Weekends. The truth of monotheism (which Adventism denies by teaching us a tritheistic form of polytheism) is the basic, essential, fundamental truth of Scripture, starting in the Old Testament and continuing throughout the New Testament. Scripture teaches, and the historic creeds of Christianity affirm, that God is one indivisible divine spirit Being, who exists as three distinct, but not separate, persons. I am only saying something about this because I am deeply concerned about it. For far too long, those coming out of Adventism have been unaware that they were taught a counterfeit "Trinity" in Adventism, and it has taken much too long for them to learn (if they ever do) that their view was wrong and that they need to "realign" with Biblical truth on the issue of the Trinity. No one ever told them, because those Christians on the "outside" didn't know--they heard the word "Trinity" and thought everything was fine! Jeremy P.S. For those of you reading this who would like to examine the differences between the SDA teaching and the orthodox doctrine of the Trinity, you can check out my website at http://www.cultorchristian.com/. You can also read my quarterly commentary from last month here: http://www.biblestudiesforadventists.com/2012/quarter1/week1/index.html (Message edited by Jeremy on February 17, 2012) | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3865 Registered: 10-2004 |
To clarify what I meant by "the only problem" Adventism "officially" has with the Trinity: The Trinity has often been summed up with 3 major points, such as the following: 1. There are three distinct persons 2. Each of these three persons is eternally divine 3. There is only one God (God is one being) The only one of these points that Adventism (officially, anyway) does deny is the last one (although they, of course, would use the words "one God"). But point #3 is the one that is a major problem in Adventists' (and even former Adventists') understandings. Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on February 17, 2012) | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 7730 Registered: 9-2006  |
Jeremy, thank you for being willing to speak up on one of the vital issues. I was thinking the other day about speaking or not speaking and I thought, 'If Paul Revere had said to himself,oh yeah, I know they are wrong in attacking us, but just don't say anything, we would all be wearing red jackets and powdered wigs. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3866 Registered: 10-2004 |
Thanks, River. Jeremy | ||
| Truman Registered user Username: Truman Post Number: 70 Registered: 1-2012 |
It's confusing, especially for someone who has never been SDA (like Bubar), because SDAs do say there is one God - but 3 beings.. as opposed to 3 persons but one being. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 7732 Registered: 9-2006 |
Matthew 9:37 Then saith he unto his disciples, The harvest truly is plenteous, but the labourers are few; Why? Many tire easily. Many are not willing to take the heat. For many it interferes with what they want to do. For many they are afraid. For many, when it gets old they quit. Many have the endurance for a day, but not a season. River | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3867 Registered: 10-2004 |
Mormons also say that they believe in three separate beings who are "one God." (And yet Christians don't go around claiming that Mormons believe in monotheism.) However, in both Adventism and Mormonism, "one God" simply means they are one in purpose, character, etc. But yes, I agree it can be confusing to never-beens and they need to learn more about what Adventism teaches. Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on February 17, 2012) | ||
| Skeeter Registered user Username: Skeeter Post Number: 1829 Registered: 12-2007  |
Yes, my SDA MIL says there is ONE God,and the trinity consists of three separate beings, The Father, The Son and the Holy Spirit who are like members of a "family" ... which to my mind makes it NOT one God but one "family" of God's united in purpose.  | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3868 Registered: 10-2004 |
Exactly, Skeeter. Jeremy | ||
| Seekinglight Registered user Username: Seekinglight Post Number: 619 Registered: 3-2009 |
Phil is a terrific guy--my former pastor when I was in MI, who was very supportive when I was losing my job at AU and looking for another one. Phil knows MUCH more than the avg. evangelical pastor about SDA, but he has much to learn, as well. To study out of SDA is really equivalent to getting a Masters in theology or Ph.D. in some cases. And our honorary 'masters degrees' can get into some pretty specific areas of theology that most ppl never even think about. It just never crosses their radars. Even very seasoned theologians often don't fully understand things like we formers do. We must be patient w/ them and be thankful when they do make progress  So many Christians are just apathetic to what cults are doing. At least, that's what I've seen. Dana Oh, one more thing.... I now teach at Seattle Pacific Univ, and they had a forum the other day where a guest speaker came to talk about evangelicalism and anti-intellectualism. Long story, but there was a American history prof. from our History Dept. on a Q & A panel. He had some interesting insights, so I went up afterwards. I told him I was a former SDA, and he knew right away what I was talking about and a lot of the SDA beliefs. He's personal friends w/ Ron Numbers. Anyways, I've had this happen a few times in the past where historians with whom I converse tend to understand SDA better than theologians do... | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3869 Registered: 10-2004 |
Oh, I agree, Dana. I am very appreciative of Phil Bubar and the fact that he cares so much about Adventists and formers, and is willing to learn about the problems with Adventism, etc. I wasn't trying to fault him personally, just expressing my overall concerns about this. Jeremy | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 7734 Registered: 9-2006 |
Is that why it took me three years to learn Adventist speak? I think there are areas that need to be talked about that don't cross former Adventist radar much, or they are afraid to talk, or don't want to talk, about these issues. I find that a lot of formers consider themselves experts within a few weeks, yet it take years to get a small understanding of evangelical theology. I wonder why that is? | ||
| Seekinglight Registered user Username: Seekinglight Post Number: 620 Registered: 3-2009 |
Of course, Jeremy. Thanks for sharing your perspective. We can always count on you to be very precise re: Trinity doctrine, and that is appreciated! Dana | ||
| Mjcmcook Registered user Username: Mjcmcook Post Number: 380 Registered: 2-2011 |
~River~ "I wonder why that is?" in your above post~ I have my own opinion about the "why" of this, but I dare not write it here! ~mj~ | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 7737 Registered: 9-2006 |
~mj~ Gotcha | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3870 Registered: 10-2004 |
River, You wrote:
I think a lot of it is probably just that we don't know what we don't know. And when Evangelicals don't know that we don't know, then they can't let us know that we don't know. That's why it is so important for those of us who discovered that we didn't know to let those who don't know that they don't know know! Did I answer your question, River, or just confuse you? Let me know!  In a nutshell, I think a lot of us have come out of Adventism still thinking that a lot of the words we shared with Christianity had the same definitions as evangelical Christianity, when in fact our SDA definitions were opposed to the Christian definitions. In other words, we thought that Adventism shared a lot of beliefs with Evangelical beliefs. Instead of realizing that Adventism shares zero beliefs with Evangelical Christianity. Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on February 19, 2012) | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 7741 Registered: 9-2006 |
I'm not confused Jere, I stood on my head to read it. | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 1194 Registered: 10-2008 |
Jeremy, I'm a little confused by your original post. I did not hear the talk you mentioned and I wonder in what context it was that Phil said the trinity isn't the issue. Could you explain further? Thanks, Carolyn | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 1672 Registered: 7-2004  |
Anyone who thinks they have learned it all, actually knows very little. Formers who studied their way out of SDAism have learned a great deal. But that great deal is only the tip of the iceberg. We don't even realize how much more we have to unlearn before we can really start learning. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3871 Registered: 10-2004 |
Carolyn, Sorry, I probably didn't make it clear enough for those who didn't hear the talk. He didn't say that the Trinity is not the issue (although it eventually almost sounded like that's where he was heading). His talk was on several different topics regarding a Christian worldview alignment that is needed for us formers. The second part of his message was on the Trinity. The first aspect of the doctrine of the Trinity that he talked about was monotheism--that God is one in essence. And he said that this aspect of the Trinity (that there is one God) "is not the issue"--meaning, in context, that it's not an issue that we were taught wrongly about in Adventism or that we need to have our worldview realigned on. If I remember his exact words, he said "This is not the issue, right? This is not the issue." Then he went on to talk about the deity of Christ, and there seemed to be some confusion about Adventism on that point--I think someone spoke up (Colleen?) when he asked whether there was an issue there. That whole part seemed kind of awkward, and like he didn't really know what Adventism taught. If anyone remembers it differently, please correct anything I've said. Hopefully the video will be posted soon. I was actually kind of surprised by what he said, because I know that yourself and others have talked to him a lot, and I emailed him about my website when I first published it (although I don't know if he ever got my email). Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on February 19, 2012) |
