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River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 7738
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, February 19, 2012 - 7:31 am: |     |
The Adventist State Of The Dead doctrine really has to do with the state of the live more than it has to do with the state of the dead because it involves whether the spirit equals just our breathe or whether we have a spirit inside us that can never die.
To the Adventist, when we are resurrected, we are resurrected as a clone, and that’s just how one of my Adventist friends put it.
He said he thought God has something like a large computer hard drive and the essence of who we are in life is somehow replicated and made to live again. Now can you say ‘Clone?
There is an area that I believe formers shy away from as do many evangelicals and that is the spirituality of man.
I can very well see the reasons behind that as spiritism was what EGW was apparently delving into and there is no question in my mind about it.
But there is a spirituality that is of God and indeed we do have spirits that will abide forever in heaven or hell, one of the two.
I suspect that the scripture in Genesis means just that when he said in Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:
That is the part of us that is made in Gods own image.
In John 4:23 it says But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
If our spirits were just breathe we wouldn’t be able to worship God at all, because our bodies are under a death sentence. The old lungs are going to quit on us and when the lungs quit, everything else shuts down accept our spirits which cannot shut down.
I believe, no, I know, that there is such a thing as a baptism in the Holy Spirit. Now don’t get exited, if you come to my house you probably won’t find me in a corner drooling spit and speaking in tongues. I do pray in tongues, I do not babble, in those times I am speaking to God. That my fine feathered friend is not spiritism.
But there is a spiritism to avoid, and my best advice is if it don’t line up with the word, stay clear of it.
I was talking to a former that had been baptized in the Holy Spirit and I ask, “How is your spirituality now?”
The form answered, “I am more spiritually alive now than I am body.
We all are more spiritually alive now, whether you have been baptized in the Holy Spirit or not. You received the Holy Spirit when you were again, but you weren’t baptized in him in most cases.
We have been born again and we are new creatures of a spiritual nature. Our bodies are the same as they were before we were born again. Oh you might have given it a little reprieve by stopping smoking, drinking or shooting up on dope, but its still the same old tired body you started out with,
A lot of the ladies try to hide it, but its there alright, them wrinkles ain’t going nowhere Sister, no matter how much makeup you put on.
Although one old lady I knew who was every bit of 80 had had so many face lifts she looked more zombie that human, she couldn’t even smile, all she could manage was some kind of a grimace.
I started to hang my hat on her when I walked by, but she moved! 
The fellow ask Jesus, “How can we enter our mothers womb again and be born again?” He just didn’t get it…yet…I’m pretty sure he got it later, but the Bible doesn’t say to my knowledge.
The former who was baptized in the Holy Spirit was one of my worst criticizers, but after she was baptized in the Holy Spirit the former says, “Now I get it!”
Its like the Adventist on their way out, they exclaim, “NOW I GET IT.” Yeah friend, he was there all the time.
Just yesterday Ross was all excited to share with us about a lady that was at Faf who had a wonderful break through.
I can already tell you what went on..her tears streaming down her face when she beholds that Lamb of God…I GOT IT! I GOT IT! I’M Saved!”
She became a spiritual person, more spiritual than body.
We born again creatures are left stuck in a body, but it won’t be that way long, we are alive forever more, because he is alive forever more. We have become more spirit than body.
Now this is going to get someone all wrought up, but don’t lets get our tails all twisted in a knot. It’s ok if we don’t all see alike.
At any rate its not the state of the dead that I’m concerned about, it’s the state of the live that I’m concerned about.
Paul exclaimed, Oh wretched man that I am! We all are because we have become spiritual beings left in a sinful body and the only relief we get is when we worship in God in spirit and in truth.
I am going to be writing more on spirituality and spiritism, I know it may be controversial, but I think this is an area where exploration is needed.
River |
Jim02
Registered user
Username: Jim02
Post Number: 1438
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, February 19, 2012 - 9:15 am: | |
Matthew 10:28
New International Version (NIV)
28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
J: A distinction has been clearly made between body and soul.
By implication, mortal death of the body does not include the death of the soul. By further implication, only God can destroy the soul.
This then is the flaw in the soul sleep belief in as far as the suggestion of a clone would apply.
Matthew 16:26
New International Version (NIV)
26 What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul?
J: Evidently, one's soul is the prime concerne.
1 Peter 1:9
New International Version (NIV)
9 for you are receiving the end result of your faith, the salvation of your souls.
J: It is clear to me that our soul lives.
I am not sure in what state. I do not think it is a death state as in cease to exist.
That would be a broken continuity.
There are repeated references to people sleeping in death. Ressurection and so forth, for those sleeping. A passage stating that Christ brings them "with him" at the ressurection.
As far as what their state of consciousness is in the interum or their participation on any level with the living on Earth, I am inclined to think they do not visit us, nor are permitted to do so. They Bible forbids communication with a familiar spirit. (someone we knew).
It may be the sleep, as in idling in stasis, not dead as far as the soul goes.
I am aware there are passages that speak of the souls or martyrs crying out. I do not know if that is figurative or literal.
There are examples of some who have been taken into heaven. Evidently they are conscious.
I think the emphasis in the SDA view is against ghosts and demon deceptions.
Even so, I am no longer able to conclude that there is a soul death at any point after physical death. But neither am I able to determine (at least for now) that there is an active consciouness until the ressurection for the majority of us, not counting the noted exceptions.
Revelation 20:4
I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
J: "Came to life" ........
I do have a questions about this topic:
In what way is this an important point of doctrine to the mainline faiths? What other doctrine(s) hinge upon it?
Jim |
Philharris
Registered user
Username: Philharris
Post Number: 2664
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, February 19, 2012 - 9:26 am: | |
River,
I've heard you pray a number of times and it was never babble. Rather, I understood every word.
Phil |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 7739
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, February 19, 2012 - 10:03 am: | |
Yeah, I might hesitate searching for the right words or stutter a bit and trying to get an unco-operative mouth to get out a prayer, but I don't babble. besides that I'm kind of shy when I pray in public because I spend most of my time in private prayer, but we bikers have some good advice.
When yer the lead rider, don't spit!
Jim, you've come a long way with that Bible since you first came to the forum. In time brother, in time.
Jim, you've come so far I no longer feel the need to draw both pistols on you. My hand might quiver a little close to the holster a bit at times, but you are getting there, just don't push yourself so hard brother.
River |
Jim02
Registered user
Username: Jim02
Post Number: 1439
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, February 19, 2012 - 1:10 pm: | |
Thank you River.
Jim |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 7742
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, February 19, 2012 - 3:39 pm: | |
if we were to travel to Mars to set up a colony there, we would first have to establish a base of operations when we got there with enough supplies to keep us alive until we could build...lets say a group of green houses.
You might look at it that way when you come out of Adventism, you have to establish a base point to keep you alive in this rarefied atmosphere where there are so many churches of different kinds.
Your base of operations has to be the cross of Christ, that is where the water and food is, he keeps you alive.
Once that is established then you build on that base, you may range far out into theology, but you are never far from the base of operations, it is your life blood.
The problem sometimes is that people don't place enough emphasis of importance to staying hooked into their base of operations and they venture out and end up in a place where there is not enough food and water, and its a long ways back.
Kind of a silly analogy isn't it? Over simplified and if we aren't careful with analogies we end up taking emphasis off the cross of Christ and his salvation.
I take the risk simply to try and get the point across that with our salvation assured in our minds by faith in Jesus, then we can explore theology safely being secure in his love.
Safe in the arms of Jesus, we don't have to know everything, but without that security, we are at risk of every wind of doctrine that blows our way.
River |
Nowisee
Registered user
Username: Nowisee
Post Number: 1074
Registered: 5-2009
| | Posted on Monday, February 20, 2012 - 10:50 am: | |
Jim, it's really good to "see" you! |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 13415
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, February 20, 2012 - 9:50 pm: | |
Jim--glad to see you! Your question about what doctrines hang on the doctrine of the human soul/spirit: the new birth is one of the most significant. We have spirits that are either dead to God and dead in sin (our natural condition) or born again by believing in the Lord Jesus.
The doctrine of eternal life also hangs on this. We cannot have eternal life if we don't exist when we die.
Colleen |
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