| Author | Message | ||
| Goose Registered user Username: Goose Post Number: 90 Registered: 11-2011  |
What do some of us think about this quite startling statement by C.S. Lewis? If it is true, what he is saying, how do we reconcile it with what Jesus said, "No one comes to the Father but by Me."? “But the truth is God has not told us what His arrangements about the other people are. ... There are people who do not accept the full Christian doctrine about Christ but who are so strongly attracted by Him that they are His in a much deeper sense than they themselves understand. There are people in other religions who are being led by God's secret influence to concentrate on those parts of their religion which are in agreement with Christianity, and who thus belong to Christ without knowing it. For example a Buddhist of good will may be led to concentrate more and more on the Buddhist teaching about mercy and to leave in the background (though he might still say he believed) the Buddhist teaching on certain points. Many of the good Pagans long before Christ's birth may have been in this position" (C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity, pp. 64, 208, 209) | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 2042 Registered: 6-2006  |
This reminds me so much of the formers here who believe they were saved (in spite of what EGW says) while they were still SDA. As Lewis prefaces this paragraph "God has not told us what his arrangements about the other people are". I think what he is saying is that God's elect are all over the place and pulled from other religions, backgrounds, etc. Even Lewis was an athiest before he fell in love with Christ...  Leigh Anne | ||
| Got2bfree Registered user Username: Got2bfree Post Number: 28 Registered: 7-2011 |
Goose: This is a tricky subject, indeed, and I know I risk having snowballs thrown at me for this post. Dr. Dallas Willard says it so much better than I ever could. First he quotes Romans 2:6-10: "God will give to each person according to what he has done. To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger." Dr. Willard goes on to say, "What Paul is clearly saying is that if anyone is worthy of being saved, they will be saved. At that point many Christians get very anxious, saying that absolutely no one is worthy of being saved. The implication of that is that a person can be almost totally good, but miss the message about Jesus, and be sent to hell. What kind of a God would do that? I am not going to stand in the way of anyone whom God wants to save. I am not going to say 'he can't save them.' I am happy for God to save anyone he wants in any way he can. It is possible for someone who does not know Jesus to be saved. But anyone who is going to be saved is going to be saved by Jesus: 'There is no other name given under heaven by which men can be saved.'" The full context of the quote can be found at http://www.dwillard.org/articles/artview.asp?artID=14 There are many things I don't know, but I do know this: God is good and God is not willing that anyone be separated from him for all eternity. If there is someone on Earth who has not had the benefit of hearing the name of Jesus, but who responds to God in the context of how he has revealed himself to her, she will (I believe) be saved. | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 1626 Registered: 7-2004  |
I'm not certain of what God will do with "someone on Earth who has not had the benefit of hearing the name of Jesus, but who responds to God in the context of how he has revealed himself to her". The Bible does not spell out those details. I don't believe we can safely say that they will certainly be saved. I think we can safely say that whatever their fate, God will have been merciful, holy, and just. I would like to believe that many people who never had the chance to know the name Jesus will be saved, but there is nothing in Scripture that tells me this is the case. Without wishing to throw any snowballs (besides we have had too warm of winter for any real snow) I think there is a potential danger in speculating on subjects that aren't specifically explained in Scripture. If we believe that Scripture is both accurate and complete, then we must accept that those things that are not explained in detail to us are left that way for a reason. I am; however, very concerned about Dr Willard's interpretation. There is no one who is almost totally good, at least not if we are going to believe Scripture completely. And salvation has never been about being worthy of salvation, God isn't in the business of saving worthy people; He saves sinners. | ||
| Got2bfree Registered user Username: Got2bfree Post Number: 29 Registered: 7-2011 |
Rick, I agree that there is not a particular passage that can be quoted, but this is something I have believed for a long time, even before I read this quote from Dallas, whom I respect. It is something that, in my opinion, is supported by the totality of scripture. That being said, I should also say this (and I realize now that this is part of the quote from Dallas that I left out): "I would never tell anyone to whom I was speaking to do anything else than place their confidence in Jesus Christ and abandon themselves to him in everything they do." Believing that God will save some who've never heard the name of Jesus doesn't change my job description: to preach the gospel and make disciples. | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 1627 Registered: 7-2004 |
I would suggest that we be cautious when employing this model. Our opinions, worldview and speculation make it into our understanding of the "totality of scripture" much more easily than they make it into specific passages and examples from Scripture. The "totality of scripture" is a personal experience and reaction to Scripture, so it differs widely from person to person and can never be specifically examined. I'm not saying we have to abandon any overall reactions to Scripture that we might have. I would only encourage each of us to allow our reactions to the "totality of Scripture" to be conformed to the specifics of Scripture as well.
I think regardless of what we conclude about the question above, this is the right response in regards to our actions. | ||
| Truman Registered user Username: Truman Post Number: 47 Registered: 1-2012 |
O.K., I'll bite. Let me give give a counterpoint: In the parable of the sheep and the goats, Jesus said that if someone has done kind things for the sick, those in prison, the hungry, etc., he or she has done them for Him (Jesus). The "sheep" even say "Lord, when did we do these things for you?" One could make the case that perhaps many of the sheep will have never known the name of Jesus; but they still came to the Father "through" Jesus, due to their love (which, naturally, produced kind acts). It doesn't seem like a stretch to me, especially since billions of people (if we include those throughout history) never knew about Jesus. | ||
| Bskillet Registered user Username: Bskillet Post Number: 929 Registered: 8-2008 |
I may be called heartless, and my answer on this issue is certainly not in keeping with the way modern man thinks about human nature and free will and all that. But I approach this problem the following way: 1. No person on earth deserves or is worthy of eternal life. Paul clearly makes this point in the first three chapters of Romans, especially in Romans 3:10-18, where he quotes the OT in such depth that he leaves no room for doubt. C.S. Lewis--as much as I like him-- is simply wrong on this issue, because of the fact that Paul unequivocally says that the kind of person C.S. Lewis describes, doesn't exist: "There is no one righteous. Not even one. ... There is no one who seeks God. ... There is no one who does good." Now, it is possible he is speaking of what Leigh Anne is saying, and if that is the case, he might be right. However, from my memory of the book in question, he isn't. 2. Following from point one, it doesn't hold that people who fail to ever hear Gospel somehow deserve a special and different dispensation from those who have. Why should they? God is not required to deliver the Gospel to them and give them faith. If He were, then salvation would not be by grace. And any way, I would argue this is unfair to those who do hear the Gospel and reject it. The hidden assumption behind the points offered by Lewis and Willard, is that there is some innate goodness in certain people so that they seek after God acceptably through the lens of their false religions, and if they had only had had a chance to hear the Gospel, they would have believed it. As Paul confirms to us when he quotes the Psalmist, "There is no one who seeks after God." Such hypothetical people do not exist. 3. God delivers the Gospel to those He chooses to save, period. Nothing is impossible for God. To claim that there are some who would have believed, had it been possible for them to have heard the Gospel, and who on that ground deserve salvation, is to say that God is hemmed in by the technological, communicative, and transportation capabilities of mankind at any given point in history. God was incapable of getting the Gospel to the Aborigines in Australia for a millennium and a half, but now that we have the jumbo jet, God suddenly becomes able to deliver the Gospel to them? This is silly. God is sovereign over human technological, communicative, and transportational capabilities and development. He is also sovereign over humanity's historical paths of geographic dispersion and settlement. It is, in my view, much more sound to believe that 1) God is always successful in saving those whom He chooses to save; 2) that no one is worthy of salvation; 3) that all are deserving of hell; 4) that therefore there is moral no requirement on God to save anyone; 5) that therefore God chooses to whom He delivers the Gospel and to whom He gives the gift of faith; and 6) accordingly that those who never hear the Gospel before death were never going to be saved anyway. Is it possible that God sovereignly arranged it so that all who would be saved happened to live in places and times where they would hear the Gospel? This is, IIRC, how William Lane Craig answers the question, and I think it is much more consistent with the Biblical Word. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 13387 Registered: 12-2003  |
Rick, I completely agree with your conclusion above. I've struggled with this question a lot, but in the last few years it's resolved in my mind. I knew that the Bible said that Jesus' name is the only name under heaven whereby we might be saved. Yet it made sense to me, as I heard it preached in Loma Linda University Church a few years ago, that because of Jesus' death, all those sincere people of other religions who never heard of Jesus would be saved. Yet Scripture doesn't actually say that. Jesus had an extended conversation with Nicodemus in John 3 where He unequivocally stated that unless a person is born again, he cannot enter the kingdom of heaven. Moreover, he stated that flesh gives birth to flesh, but Spirit gives birth to spirit. In John 3 18 He says that those who believe in Him are not judged; "he who does not believe is judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." Further, in John 5:24 He says, "…he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life." The NT is really clear that belief in Jesus and being born again are necessary to be in heaven. But what about those who do not hear? The thing that has made me realize that God is bigger than the physical limitations we experience is the fact that so many people stuck deeply inside Muslim cultures are receiving visions of the Lord Jesus who reveals that He is true and directs them to find Christians or the Bible. God is the One who saves people. We do not depend upon one another in order to be saved. He knows how to reveal Himself to each person. Moreover, Romans 1:18-20 says that the truth about God's eternal nature and divine power are revealed through what has been made, and all men are without excuse. Creation does not reveal the truth about Jesus' atonement, but those who acknowledge God through the signs He has placed in the heavens will not be ignored. God knows how to reveal Jesus to those who acknowledge the reality of Him. He asks us to be Jesus' witnesses; those are our marching orders. But, as a Honduran friend of mine who is a local Honduran missionary with her husband says, "God doesn't need us, but He uses us." I believe that God reveals Jesus to those who don't have other ways of hearing. I can't make comprehensive, definitive statements about all people for all time, but I know that God is bigger than our limitations. We can't limit God's work by our hindrances. Colleen | ||
| Kelleigh Registered user Username: Kelleigh Post Number: 369 Registered: 7-2011  |
Thanks Colleen, that rings true. I wrote this earlier this morning. Will still post to add to discussion. What does it mean to "believe in Jesus"? Believing in Jesus means that we believe that God loves and forgives us - that is the message of the Cross. Likewise we are to take up our cross and do the same for others. Salvation is not tied to expressing the name "Jesus" like a magic amulet. Salvation is based on the universal principles of love and forgiveness that transcend religion, and include everyone. | ||
| Kelleigh Registered user Username: Kelleigh Post Number: 370 Registered: 7-2011 |
Ric, post #1627, thank you, those ideas ring true also. quote{I would only encourage each of us to allow our reactions to the totality of Scripture to be conformed to the specifics of Scripture as well.} I'd like to understand what you mean by that, i.e what are the "specifics of Scripture" that should direct our understanding of the "totality of Scripture" in your opinion? PS. I must be formatting challenged! | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 1628 Registered: 7-2004 |
Colleen, I love this statement:
bskillet, I think your 3rd point is particularly valuable, not that I disagree with any of them. | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 1629 Registered: 7-2004 |
Kelleigh, What I mean is that when we read Scripture we come away with "big picture" ideas about God and how we think God might act in other situations. These views are always some combination of our own views (i.e. the whole point of the book Your God is too Small) and what is actually written in Scripture. Many times these "big picture" ideas are influenced by outside sources, like the "big picture" of the Great Controversy. If we allow ourselves to continually re-examine how we have defined God and the "big picture" by comparing specific passages in Scripture we will grow in our understanding. But if we merely set aside or re-interpret the specific passages to fit the "big picture" that we have, then our view will not change, it will not be slowly transformed into alignment with only what is in Scripture. I hope that makes some sense. | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 2043 Registered: 6-2006 |
I do have a semi-related comment/question. If I asked "so if the SDA church is truly the remnant church, then is it true that no one else will go to Heaven except for them?" As long as I've been connected to my SDA family, I've heard some of them (including my husband) answer "well, there will be some people who aren't SDA, like people who have never heard of Jesus, natives in remote tribal villages, that will be in Heaven some day". Is that some kind of an Ellenism? I've always thought it sounded like a stock answer and a strange fixation. Just curious... | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 1631 Registered: 7-2004 |
The concept of being saved by "living according to the light that you have" is widespread in SDAism. I'm not sure if that originates with Ellen or was added by other followers. Regardless IF salvation is based on how we are living, it is a works-based salvation instead of a faith-based salvation. | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 2415 Registered: 7-2007 |
"Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name [Jesus] under heaven given among men by which we must be saved." Acts 4:12 "For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, SO THAT THEY ARE WITHOUT EXCUSE. Romans 1:20 But if a person seeks Who made everything, then the One Who made everything will reveal Himself to them. Look at this true story of a young Muslim Indonesian girl named Dini. Her testimony has been reenacted on this youtube video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58InvOzj_YM | ||
| Kelleigh Registered user Username: Kelleigh Post Number: 371 Registered: 7-2011 |
Bskillet, you are not heartless. You look to the Bible for answers and apply them to the questions of life. This is what we all try to do! I believe the message of the Bible is that we are all deserving and worthy of God’s love. We are His creatures. If we were not worthwhile God would not have gone to the great length He did to redeem us from darkness. God asks us to love and forgive everyone, even our enemies, because that is what He does. Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be driven out. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself. John 12:31-32 For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead has also come through a human being; for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ. 1Cor. 15:21-22 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the Sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme. Mark 3:28 Therefore just as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all. Rom. 5:18 For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all. Rom 11:32 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. 1 John 2:1-2 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him and declared, “Here is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!” John 1:29 | ||
| Starlabs Registered user Username: Starlabs Post Number: 56 Registered: 5-2011 |
Bskillet, I totally feel like what you have said is correct. You are putting man in his rightful place. Adam as our representative sinned and now sin has been imputed to every living person from him on. We are sinful and deserve death. We as humans naturally think higher of ourselves than we ought too. I don't see evidence from the Bible that we even seek God, but that He has to put that into our heart to seek Him. Jesus' death on the cross is our only salvation. CS Lewis seems to be traveling down the road to universalism. But, we not everyone will be saved. Is it our call to say God is unjust? No, He is Soverign. He does as He sees fits. I think from SDA I always got this view that God was getting judged to see if He was being just. Now I understand that's not our call. Again, God is Soverign. Can we explain how some will be saved, say that are mentality ill that can't understand the concept of Jesus or the fetus who never got a chance at live on earth? Where the Bible is silent we too have to be silent. We can of course wander, but we can't say with any certainty. It just comes down to the fact that God is Soverign and He will take care of all these issues. Our finite minds may never understand. I just put my trust in God. | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 2418 Registered: 7-2007 |
Did anyone see the movie where Jesus appeared to Dini and told her "follow Me"? Kelleigh; John 3:16 says that God sent His Son to die because He "so loved the world," but two verses later it says that "he who does not believe [in Jesus] is condemned already," so God, even though His love is greater than we can imagine, cannot simply save someone on that basis. They have to be as good as God. How can someone do that? Simple. Accept Jesus. Then God sees you clothed in Jesus' perfect righteousness! "Gospel" means good news. It's far, far better good news than we could have imagined as Adventists! | ||
| Truman Registered user Username: Truman Post Number: 48 Registered: 1-2012 |
Indeed, God is bigger than us, and certainly bigger than any of our flawed interpretations of scripture. As counterpoint to quoting proof texts: "For the Son of Man is going to come with His angels in the glory of His Father, and then He will reward each according to what he has done. I assure you: There are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom." Matthew 16:27-28 |
