| Author | Message | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 1531 Registered: 7-2004  |
Sorry, some of us get used to throwing technical terms back and forth to each other and forget that these terms are foreign to many who are following along. Cessationists believe that the Spiritual Gifts, healing, prophecy, tongues, and miracles (everyone seems OK with the gift of teaching, hmmm) were only meant to carry the church through the transition from the Old until the writing of the NT was complete. At which time God no longer needed to act in such a direct manner with His people. | ||
| Katarain Registered user Username: Katarain Post Number: 38 Registered: 1-2012 |
Oh. One of my coworkers believes that. She's protestant. Church of Christ, I believe. | ||
| Marysroses Registered user Username: Marysroses Post Number: 271 Registered: 4-2007 |
OK, so here's two cents from your resident Catholic. I think there is a lot of fear and misinformation, recognized or not, on both sides of the Protestant/Catholic divide. Harsh words never win anyone to Christ. As many uninformed Catholics spout nonsense about protestant faiths as uninformed protestants repeat fables about Babylonian fish gods and goddess worship about Catholics. I see it from both sides, having been raised baptist, and I joined the SDA church with my family when I was 15. I was SDA until my senior year of college, when I attended SAC in Keene TX, and was horrified at some things I was taught and things I saw happening around me. When I hear a fellow Catholic repeating untruths about Protestants, I correct them. Protestant brothers and sisters love Jesus and have a deep love of Scripture. They are baptized into the body of Christ and deserve respect as Christian brothers and sisters, not derogatory comments and false "horror stories". I do stand up to protestant bashing! I know protestants who return similar respect to Catholics, and some who don't. Lots of times, people have their mind made up and don't want to hear a different perspective, and that's ok, its up to the Holy Spirit not me, to soften hearts. Dr. Francis Beckwith, the former president of the Evangelical Theological Society wrote a book on being an "Evangelical Catholic" after stepping down from his office and resigning his position as a theology professor at Baylor University to renew his Catholic faith. Its not written to proselytize but to inform and explain his thoughts about the perceived divide between Catholics and Evangelicals. I'd recommend it to anyone wanting to really begin to understand the issues. Ric_b is exactly right that the Reformation caused some theology to become set in stone, which caused some things to become over emphasized or interpreted narrowly. There has been a gradual unwinding of some of the more rigid positions, especially during the last 50 years. Beating someone over the head with dramatic but false claims (Fish gods? REally? LOL) about Catholicism isn't going to change anyone's mind, least of all mine. I do agree with Ric's premise that the Catholic Church is more Christian than the SDA. That said, I will not debate Catholicism here, I'm just sharing my thoughts on the topic. Lynne | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 1535 Registered: 7-2004 |
Lynne, I'm glad you have taken the time to read along on this thread when I know that the posts and general subject cannot be pleasant for you. I hope that you experience respect in my comments about disagreements with RC theology. Likewise, I am not here to debate Catholicism. I think SDAism left many Formers with a great deal of misinformation about RCism. I know it did for me. I think bad information interferes with having meaningful conversation about the real issues. | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 2361 Registered: 7-2007 |
Jeremy, did you read the article in my post? The says very first paragraph says: The Roman Catholic Church contends that its origin is the death, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus Christ in approximately A.D. 30. The Catholic Church proclaims itself to be the church that Jesus Christ died for, the church that was established and built by the apostles. Is that the true origin of the Catholic Church? On the contrary.... Even a cursory reading of the New Testament will reveal that the Catholic Church does NOT have its origin in the teachings of Jesus or His apostles. In the New Testament, there is no mention of the papacy, worship/adoration of Mary (or the immaculate conception of Mary, the perpetual virginity of Mary, the assumption of Mary, or Mary as co-redemptrix and mediatrix), petitioning saints in heaven for their prayers, apostolic succession, the ordinances of the church functioning as sacraments, infant baptism, confession of sin to a priest, purgatory, indulgences, or the equal authority of church tradition and Scripture. So, if the origin of the Catholic Church is NOT in the teachings of Jesus and His apostles, as recorded in the New Testament, what is the true origin of the Catholic Church? Got questions.org is a reliable Christian apologetic source and ministry. I did not claim that the true church was not Christian by 300 AD. I said that the true church was pure because of persecution until 300 AD. Then because of Constantine's false conversion and mandatory edict that everyone must become a christian... there were many false converts claiming to be christian, who actually began the cult of the catholic church disguising their pagan practices under the guise of Christianity. It was as if the devil found out he could not beat them by persecution so he decided to join them instead. The true church believing the true gospel preached by the followers of Jesus and this original cult co-existed just as the cults and true church co-exist today. The true church was actually persecuted by the catholic cult in the name of Christ all along. Of course the pagans, who were now Christianized greatly outnumbered the true Christians, which I am sure for the most part went underground for survival and the counterfeit took its place as God's church on earth. It claimed to follow the Word of God but in actuality did its very best to keep the Bible out of the hands of the people claiming to this day that only the priests can read it and interpret it and tell the people what it says. | ||
| Starlabs Registered user Username: Starlabs Post Number: 35 Registered: 5-2011 |
Ric_b thank you for the challenge and you didn't deminish my enthusiasm in the least. Thanks for you patience with a newbie! | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 7641 Registered: 9-2006  |
Its good to see our resident Catholic is still around, I was afraid she had flown the coup by now. Stick around, tomorrow it might be on speaking in tongues, swinging from the rafters and down by da Riber side. Hey well! you can't say we aren't a lively bunch.  River | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 2031 Registered: 6-2006  |
Lynne, I'm still sorry that you were "beat over the head" (accusing, judgemental, hurtful) and treated so disrepectfully here in the forum. I hope you can still see those who are willing to listen to you and accept what you have to contribute. You are a dear lady who loves the Lord and I personally appreciate your insight. Leigh Anne | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 13345 Registered: 12-2003  |
Lynne, thank you for posting the above. It's good to see you! You are always articulate and thoughtful. Colleen | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 7643 Registered: 9-2006 |
Do you know what I like about every Catholic I have ever known?, and I don't mean a passing acquaintance or you might put it a digital acquaintance. But an every day acquaintance, a rubbing shoulders acquaintance, as in you got my back I've got yours. A fox hole acquaintance if you will. What I like most about them is their ability to believe Gods miracles and that puts most protestants to shame. That simple and humble faith is very hard to come by. I don't expect anybody to understand what I just said, because unless you have known them personally and up close, you can't know them. Their kind of friendship and intimacy is hard to come by, a friendship that is so strong that we are willing to lay down our differences, and allow each to be what they are and not stand taking pot shots at each other for it. Both knowing that we are at the mercy of a Holy and perfect God who can and does do miracles in our day. I don't experience that kind of friendship and closeness with protestants, for the most part they are in and out, off and on or somewhere in between. Maybe its just that I've had to live an 'its in the fan' life I don't know, its just the way things appear to me personally. River | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 1539 Registered: 7-2004 |
River, Have you ever considered that the RC belief that a miracle is occuring every week in communion might be a factor in making it easier for them to believe in God's miracles in general. And please everyone, I am NOT trying to start a debate on transubstantiation or on whether RCism sacrifices Jesus week after week. I am simply making an observation about how two beliefs might be related. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3859 Registered: 10-2004  |
Asurprise, Yes, I read the article in your post. And my point was that it would not have even been possible for the Roman Catholic Church to "apostatiz[e] from the true gospel of Jesus Christ and the true proclamation of God's Word" as the article says, unless it had its origin in the Apostolic root! For example, the LDS or SDA cults cannot apostatize from "the true gospel of Jesus Christ and the true proclamation of God's Word" because they have never had the true gospel of Jesus Christ and have never proclaimed the truth of God's Word! Here's my question to you: Do you believe that the Nicene Creed (which came out of Constantine's Council of Nicaea in 325 AD) represents true Christianity or pagan counterfeit Christianity? With regard to gotquestions.org, I agree that it has been a generally reliable source (although it seems to have become less so in the last few years) and that article seems to have been taken from a book by Christian apologist Ron Rhodes, whom I respect. But if someone is wrong, they are wrong. And some of that article, especially the part about theotokos is just dead wrong. Christian orthodoxy demands that we accept Mary as theotokos, as the Council of Ephesus affirmed in 431 AD. Otherwise, we are denying the deity of Jesus. Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on January 24, 2012) | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 7644 Registered: 9-2006 |
Yes, I have thought about the reasons it is easier for them to believe in Gods miracles in general and there is more than that one. It has been shown what we don't like about the Catholics and the question came to my mind in the shower this morning, "Well, what do ya like aboutem?" I just said what I like aboutem, I didn't say that what I liked about them interfered with my thinking or reasoning processes. River | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 2363 Registered: 7-2007 |
Leigh Anne; I admit I don't read everything on the forum, but I'm confused. Who treated Lynne disrespectfully on the forum? The only possible thing that I can think of, is something that happened back in 2008 when a brand newbie named Handmaiden wrote some posts to Jim02 to convince him not to join the RC church. By the time she got to the point where she was about to tell Jim her own conversion story, Marysroses got upset at Handmaiden for wanting to write it. (Handmaiden was rescued out of the RCC by God almost 40 years ago.) Not only Marysroses, but several other people jumped on this newbie, who decided to drop telling her story. It was too late. Marysroses had left the forum. Nothing was ever personally addressed to Marysroses by Handmaiden and everything I have written about Catholicism has NOT been to bash Catholics! I have been proclaiming the truth against the lies of the enemy. I DO believe that man has free will and that the truth needs to be preached to the lost. | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 2364 Registered: 7-2007 |
Jeremy; I understand what you are saying about the cults not being of the apostolic root. I get it. But you do not seem to understand that I am saying the same thing about RCC. They are NOT of the apostolic root but began three hundred years later. They are the original cult. They are a bush of a different root that began three hundred years after Christ just as the SDA is a bush with a different root that began 1800 years after Christ. The article says nothing about them apostatizing from the true gospel/church. They never apostatized from the true church any more than the SDA did. They were never a part of the apostolic root. They are a separate organism that has mingled true Christianity with paganism and co existed with the true church. But being much larger than the true church soon overshadowed the true church/believers and stood for centuries in its place. They say they follow the Word of God just like any other christian cult does but like every other cult they keep the true Word away from their followers and promote their false teachings. When does life begin...at conception not when the baby is born 9 months later. The conception of the Catholic church began with Constantine not with Jesus...it produced a big false "baby" centuries later and that baby has grown into a false religion of epic proportions sending millions to the an eternal life without God. It is, was and always has been a counterfeit religion. Mary may be a God bearer but she is not the mother of God. She is mother of the humaness of Jesus. She is a sinner having been born with a human father. Sin is passed down through the father. We all have human fathers except for Jesus. He was born without sin because He did not have a sin stained human father but God, Who is without sin is His Father. Mary did not remain a virgin. She is not a co-mediator or co-redeemer and she is not the queen of heaven which is a term given to Isis. Mary was a young virgin Hebrew girl, who was obedient to the will of God and that is all. "The children gather wood, the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead dough, to make cakes for the queen of heaven; and they pour out drink offerings to other gods, that they may provoke Me to anger." Jeremiah 7:18 | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 2365 Registered: 7-2007 |
Marysroses; I'd like to welcome you back too. Most everybody on the forum came out of a cult - the SDA religion. The SDA religion is not the only religion that's false though. I need to attack the lies of the enemy even though there are likely many Adventists reading what I write. In fact, I start many threads with them in mind, because I care about them and don't want them to be lost. Should I care any less about where you will spend eternity? I've also mentioned J.Witnesses, Mormons and Muslims. I wish they'd read what I write too. I hope that when you read these threads, it will give you some cognitive dissonance. When we were all in the SDA church, we didn't know it's roots were evil. We had NO IDEA that there was an evil spirit behind the church! It's the same way with the Catholic church. I beg you to please line it up with the Word of God! Catholic doctrine contradicts the Bible. You cannot have BOTH Catholic doctrine and the Bible. One is right and one is wrong. The Bible says that Jesus DIED, ONCE FOR ALL - Hebrews 10:10, but the Catholics sacrifice Him at every mass. There's one thing you need and that is the right Jesus! | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 1541 Registered: 7-2004 |
I know that you didn't get this from the Bible, so please explain what your source is for this wild claim. Your claims for the origination of the Catholic church don't hold up to history. Saying it over and over again doesn't make it any more true. And I would like to know why you keep avoiding Jeremy's question about whether you believe the Nicene creed is Christian or pagan. | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 1542 Registered: 7-2004 |
Asurprise, I wish you could understand the difference between saying that the RC church teaches the wrong Jesus and saying that Lynne doesn't believe in the right Jesus and is therefore unsaved. That, perhaps seemingly small, difference is what distinguishes between treating a person disrespectfully and discussing the errors in their church teachings. I don't belileve anyone here is challenging you for stating your disagreement with RC teaching (although I think you have been challenged to be more accurate and precise in your criticisms of RC doctrine and history). What I have challenged you regarding, and what I think all other challenges to you posts are also looking at, are your conclusion about whether another specific person is saved or can even possibly be saved in spite of the errors in e church they attend. | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 2368 Registered: 7-2007 |
Doc; your post was really insightful. I agree with it 100%! Thank-you for speaking the truth! | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 2370 Registered: 7-2007 |
"For if by the one man's offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ. Romans 5:17 Through one man Adam sin entered the world. verse Who sinned first? Eve did! The Bible does not say that sin entered the world through Eve. We all inherit our sin nature from Adam. We all have a human father through which sin is passed down. That is why Mary was also born into sin. If sin is inherited from both parents then Jesus would have inherited Mary's sin....and He would not be born sinless. Since Jesus did not have a human father and sin is not passed through the mother...then Jesus could be born without sin.. When a person gets saved, they don't stay in the cult they're in. The come out! And the Nicene creed was written very shortly after Constantine came on the scene. There would still have been enough real Christian influence for the purpose of the Nicene creed to be written, (which was to refute the false doctrine that Jesus was a created being.) |
