| Author | Message | ||
| Mjcmcook Registered user Username: Mjcmcook Post Number: 331 Registered: 2-2011 |
~River~  ~mj~ | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 2343 Registered: 7-2007 |
All or most of us know that it's unlikely for an Adventist to be saved. What I mean is, an Adventist is taught that part of salvation is up to their "works" and it isn't really, not REALLY. a gift. Or if a gift, one with strings attached called works like effort and perseverance, that a person has to do in order to KEEP this Free Gift. While they believe that way, they haven't accepted God's Gift. Remember Dale Ratzlaff's testimony where he told his congregation that Ellen White wasn't right about everything? He had gotten saved BEFORE he left the Adventist church, and believing Ellen White to be right in everything would have made that impossible. She had said that no one can say they are saved. An Adventist I knew, recently passed away. Passed away where? That's the question. If she believed the SDA church and Ellen White, she wouldn't have been able to accept Jesus finished work and Free Gift. Again, some years back a co-worker who was SDA died. As someone put it, he was a tortured soul. And I could see it too - the continual misery in his face, etc. He had gone from one cult into another, ending up an SDA. Where I work, one doesn't dare share the gospel much, so I didn't tell him much. Here's sort of a little parable: Shawn (I hope no one here is named Shawn) welcomed his friends into his home for a light lunch. They couldn't stay long because they were just passing through. "We're traveling the Blue road," one of his guests told him. "It's the most direct and smooth paved of the routes and will get us to our destination the fastest." The others nodded as they looked at Shawn as if trying to convince him to accept the route they planned. They had reason to. A long time ago, Shawn had told them that there was no bridge over a vast chasm that the road supposedly crossed. They had gotten so upset at him that he had never brought it up again. Now, looking back at his friends, Shawn's heart clenched within him. He loved them, but couldn't bear their anger. He didn't want to upset them. For a moment, he paused, his emotions warring within him and then he smiled. "I hope you have a good trip," he said. They smiled back. After they walked back outside, they each hugged him and got into their car and drove off. Shawn waved as long as they were in sight. Surely someone would warn them. There were businesses and stores that they would pass before they got to their road. Surely someone else would warn them in time. He put the matter out of his mind and went back into the house. It was a beautiful day for traveling. The sky was mostly clear and the leaves were coming out on the trees. The friends in the car were singing as they went. Trees lined the road on both sides. Then the road curved and they suddenly saw what the trees had obscured. A vast chasm and NO bridge. The driver slammed on the breaks, but there wasn't anywhere near enough time to stop. The car went over the edge and the occupants screamed in despair as the car plunged down and down. For the briefest of moments, their friend Shawn's face flashed in their memory and his words long ago that there was no bridge. Today he had reassured them by his actions that the road was okay, but if only he had been enough of a friend to warn them one last time. Would they have listened? They didn't know, but they still wished he had told them again. They would wish it forever. Another person who worked where I work was Jewish. He was a wonderful man, outgoing and friendly unless you even hinted that you wanted to tell him the gospel. Then he was abruptly hostile. I went to his retirement party and as he gave me a friendly hug, I asked him for his home phone number. At first he said yes, then he said; "you want to tell me about THAT, don't you?" I knew what "THAT" was and sighed. "Yes," I said. "Then I don't want to give you my phone number," he said. After he retired he moved out of state. Six months later I learned he'd had a heart attack. At least I'd tried to tell him, but nobody is guaranteed tomorrow. Any of us could die in a car crash or because of a heart attack. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 7622 Registered: 9-2006  |
I'll give you another parable. Two men were sent out as snipers during the civil war. They positioned themselves on a hill overlooking a town, they were close enough that they could hear the sounds coming from the town. One man started shooting every thing that made a sound, women, children, even dogs. The other man put his hand on his weapon and said, "Man, what on earth are you doing, you're killing everyone in sight!" The other man said, "I can't see a darn thing, I'm near blind." The moral my friend? Take aim and hit at what you are shooting at. Don't just shoot blindly, if you do you could become dangerous even too yourself. River | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 2344 Registered: 7-2007 |
River; I'm not "shooting wildly." I have a specific "target" in mind, and not because they're my enemy. They're my "target" because I care for them too much to let them slip into hell, unwarned. My "target" are those who have not accepted Jesus as their Savior. (The Jesus of the Bible Who finished the work and Who died once for all time.) Do you think I like contending for the faith? I don't like being pounded to the ground every time I do it. I know it's difficult to tell someone a painful truth who's been sweet to you when you've been hurting. I know that you don't want to hurt them when they were kind to you, but is that love? They will hurt for all eternity if they don't get saved!!!  I understand what you're saying, but I want you to understand what I'm saying too. (Message edited by Asurprise on January 20, 2012) | ||
| Skeeter Registered user Username: Skeeter Post Number: 1768 Registered: 12-2007  |
Just caught up on this thread. WOW !!! I am just so sad to see all this. I love you all, and I know you all love each other, but sometimes I think maybe we (myself included)try so hard to make ourselves understood that we sometimes say too much. Things that get posted, and maybe we go back a few minutes or a couple of days later and read what we posted again and..... realize how it must "sound" to others... but it is too late.... there it is POSTED and all we can do is cringe and wonder "what was I thinking ???" But too late.... there it is for all to see and there's no changing it. Embarassing.... I know, I have been there plenty of times. Sometimes about all we can do is take a deep breath, pray for understanding and move on. Love you guys Francie | ||
| Truman Registered user Username: Truman Post Number: 9 Registered: 1-2012 |
Here is a wild idea, and I say this with love: How about teaching the attributes of the true gospel (primarily by example, secondarily in words), rather than telling others their beliefs are wrong? My guess is few (if any) Catholics, SDAs, JWs, or Mormons will renounce their beliefs and accept what you are teaching if they perceive you as attacking their beliefs (remember, their perception is their reality). Of course there are some from those groups who are open to having a serious discussion. I have enjoyed some spirited debates with Catholics... When one raises the point of only following scripture, Catholic scholars find that amusing. "You're telling US that we should only follow the books that WE voted to include as scripture?", they ask. "God never said you could only follow those books. The New Testament books weren't even written, much less considered 'scripture', when the early Christian church began." And so it goes, not getting any easier from there. Moral: If you are going to have a serious debate with serious Catholics, you had better do your homework and know your history. | ||
| Mjcmcook Registered user Username: Mjcmcook Post Number: 333 Registered: 2-2011 |
~Truman~ My response to your sentence in post #9 where you write~"How about teaching the attributes of the true gospel(primarily by example, secondarily in words,) rather than telling others their beliefs are wrong?" This is what I was trying to convey in my post #330 where I talked about using "velvet gloves instead of hammers!"~ most people, myself included, do not respond well to being talked to, in an "in your face" manner, whether in 'person or on paper'~ ~mj~ | ||
| Gcfrankie Registered user Username: Gcfrankie Post Number: 858 Registered: 1-2007 |
What really suprises me is the fact that some of the sads who leave the church join a catholic church considering the sda church is so set against them and teach they are idol worshipers. Asuprise I understand what you are saying but back up and put the other shoe on. When you were still tight with your cultic religion and someone came on to you about your religion how far would they have gotten? Would you have not gotten disgusted with them? I know I would have. I know you do not want to see them get caught up in another cult but sometimes you have to leave things in God's hands. Have you gotten on Carm? It is a blog and just read what is being typed by sda's, catholics, etc. I have found this is a good way to learn what other religions believe. Thank-you Skeeter for what you said about posting something and then days later going back and reading it and it was totally different from what you meant or you were just having a bad day and you wish you could take it back. This is done and over with so lets put it to bed and forget it and go one from here. Love to both you Asuprise and River. Gail | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 7625 Registered: 9-2006 |
There is no hard feelings on my part to you Asurprise and I don't think you are feeling hard at me. I objected to your methods, not what you believe. You believe you are contending for the faith and I honor that. Its your methods that make me cringe every time you do it. I'm just asking you to be a little bit more gentle and considerate of my two Catholic friends by not constantly sniping at them. By your own admittance you have a target in mind when you do this. I should have said something before this and its been a long time coming. Thats the reason it can't be put to bed Gail. I was willing to put it to bed, but it ain't happening don't look like. River | ||
| Leonie Registered user Username: Leonie Post Number: 39 Registered: 10-2011 |
I went to church today! Mainly because an old friend was going to give the sermon. He is like an uncle to me..... Nevertheless, beeing a former, I was suspicious about what I would hear, the whole frame, if Jesus would be uplifted. Surprise, the worship was Christ-centered! There were songs about Gods love for us, there were honest prayers, everything a worship should be.... Jesus once said that he had sheep from many folds, these sheep would also hear his voice and follow him. I get sad when I read stuff like the above, that noone in the sda church will be saved. I do not agree..... However, you will be judged by the light you have. From the one who has received a lot, a lot will be demanded. If you have understood the salvation -the free gift, you must follow the light you have received and cannot go back to what you believed before. Then you cannot rely on your own works anymore.... But if you never understood the truth of the gospel, how can God hold you accountable? In my mind many Sda's are like the pagans mentioned in Romans. Those who have never seen the light. I sure was one of them myself before getting my eyes opened! I believe we will see many adventists, catholics, witnesses and so on in heaven. I believe God is so great - and most of all, he judges our hearts. We are not saved by membership, but by what is in our hearts. That can never free us from our responsibility of searching sciptures, and daily make sure we stay close to Christ. Bottomline- I think we will get a lot of surprises when we get to heaven :-)) Monica | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 1505 Registered: 7-2004  |
Monica, I am glad that you had a good experience today. I agree with you that we are not saved by memberships, but I disagree that salvation is based on God judging ou hearts. Just like our actions, if we are judged based on our hearts we will all be lost. The only way that we are saved is if we are credited Christ's righteousness instead of relying on anything that is from us. I would also challenge your idea about:
This is one of the false teachings that we were fed again and again in SDAism. It lacks a Scriptural basis.
It sounds like you are suggesting that the pagans were saved based on their works, despite not knowing God. Again, we were taught that in SDAism, but it simply doesn't fit with the context of Romans. Yes, Rom 2:14-15 read by themselves would seem to indicate that this is the case. But you have to read all of Paul's logical "argument" here in order to understand his point. Paul continues onward showing that everyone, both Jew and pagan is ultimately condemned by their actions (look forward to Rom 3:9-12 to see where Paul is going with his logic). I would agree with you that we can't know whether a person is saved based on their church membership, we can only comment on that church not the persons. I have no doubts that God has His sheep in many places and that we will amazed by His grace. | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 2347 Registered: 7-2007 |
Thank-you Ric_b I too, believed that "if someone is living up to all the light they have, they'll be saved." I was wrong. Truman; the Jews were the ones entrusted with God's word. All the New Testament books except Luke and Acts, were written by Jews. (Luke got all his information from Peter who was a Jew.) Peter called Paul's writings scripture (2nd Peter 3:16). They had the full cannon of the Bible by 90 AD when Revelation was written. The RCC (which tried to add the Apocrypha to the Bible) didn't start until 300 AD when Constantine made a law mandating that everyone be a Christian. That brought false converts into the church who simply hid their paganism by giving their various gods Christian names. Truman, one cannot lead by example. You have to tell the gospel. It didn't work for me to be shown a shining example of Christianity. I myself, was a shining example of "Christianity" when I was lost as an SDA. There's a man at work who is a Mormon, but he's sure a "shining example of a Christian." But he's not a Christian. What he has is a deception that has already sent many to hell. Gail; my beliefs had to be attacked. I had to be shown that the Bible contradicts Ellen White. It took two years, but with God's help, I came out! Monica; the false religions have light, but it's a false light coming from the devil who makes himself an angel of light. When that book called; "The Shack" came out, I was really impressed with it's wonderful portrayal of God's love and bought copies for many of my relatives. Later I regretted doing that, because the book preaches universalism, saying that God's children are in all religions such as Mormonism. The trouble is, a religion won't save anyone. Religion is man's attempt to reach God and it will fail EVERY time. The ONLY thing that will save anybody is Jesus' blood on their hearts - meaning the person HAS to accept Jesus finished work in their behalf. None of the religions allow this. | ||
| Skeeter Registered user Username: Skeeter Post Number: 1769 Registered: 12-2007 |
Ric said "I would agree with you that we can't know whether a person is saved based on their church membership, we can only comment on that church not the persons. I have no doubts that God has His sheep in many places and that we will amazed by His grace." I totally agree In the case of Adventism, I do not blame the members who sincerely believe what they are being taught is truly from God, BUT I DO blame the denominations leaders, those in the General Conference, etc who KNOW and have known even while EGW was still living that she was WRONG about so many things... they KNEW even back then that there is no Biblical basis for teaching the doctrines of soul sleep, the Investigative Judgment, Sunday being the mark of the beast and Sabbath being the "seal" of God's people, etc. etc. etc.... and yet they continue to teach it. There are many wonderful people in the SDA church, as there are in Catholicism, Mormonism, JW's,etc. and I am convinced that many of them are very "sincere" in their beliefs, BUT to quote D.M. Canright "Sincerity does not sanctify error". Sincerely believing something does NOT make it TRUE. I know it is NOT easy to accept that those things you were taught in many cases since birth are FALSE when you have believed with your whole heart that they were true to God's word. BUT, sadly, I have found that sometimes it has less to do with "honestly believing" you have "truth", than it has to do with stubborn pride, and FEAR. Adventism is more than just where you attend church and get together over potlucks. For most SDA's, "BEING" SDA is their whole identity as a person. Just the thought of not being SDA is so frightening to them that they have no desire to and even a deep sense of fear of learning they have been wrong. So they close their ears, and pull that blasted veil down tightly over their eyes because they do not WANT to learn anything else, even if it is TRUTH, because that would mean they would have to give up their whole identity and start all over again. It is scary. Sadly they just cant understand that it REALLY IS BETTER, and brings great joy and peace to know God's truth rather than the SDA version of truth. We can preach the Gospel of Christ to them until we are blue in the face and they are sitting there snoring.. but unless and until they are WILLING to hear it, it is useless. ONLY when the Holy Spirit convicts them and gives them the desire to search for truth outside the boundaries of Adventism will they find truth. I have come to the conclusion that it is MY job to pray for them and to answer any questions they may ask of me,Believe in God and His word, and show love to those around me, but it is the job of the Holy Spirit to do the changing in their hearts. I do not have that ability. Francie | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 1506 Registered: 7-2004 |
One of the problems with the "living up to the light you have" is that this is a works-based salvation. You are being judged on your "living". Being sincere is not the criteria for salvation. It is not the fact that you have "faith" that saves you, it is in Whom you have faith that saves. You can have a sincere belief in yourself and your own ability. You can have faith in your bank account or in the lottery or in false religions, but none of these can save you, no matter how sincere your faith in these gods. The question is raised, how can God hold us accountable for something that we didn'thave a chance to know. This is what Paul addresses in the first two and a half chapters of Romans. Unbelievers are being held accountable for their sin. And God makes clear (through Paul's writing in these chapters) that there is sufficient revelation of right and wrong through nature and conscience that all men, whether they have direct knowledge of God or not, have done wrong again and again. All have sinned, with or without knowledge of the laws of God. This leads to a number of questions that are not answered for us in Scripture. What about sinners who never had the opportunity to hear the Gospel? Why did some people have so many opportunities to hear the Gospel, while other people had so few? What does God do with people who were so poisoned by false teachings that they never wanted to hear another word about God? I think it is best that we don't speculate about these answers but simply trust that God has better plans than we could ever come up with, He is God after all. | ||
| Mjcmcook Registered user Username: Mjcmcook Post Number: 336 Registered: 2-2011 |
~Francie~ Thank-you for your beautifully written post! You have captured the essence of what I also, believe~ We Pray~speak the TRUTH in a Loving "tone"~ And get out of the way; so the Holy Spirit can do the rest~ Too many times "we" get in the way, and try to do the Holy Spirit's job~ and though, well meaning, may make things worse, not better~ ~Blessings~ ~mj~ | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 1507 Registered: 7-2004 |
Francie, Seems like you and I were writing some of the same thoughts at the same time. We can sow seeds but we can't prepare the ground, provide the rain, or the sun. Only the Holy Spirit can change hearts. But God still uses weak, broken people like us to proclaim His truths. I think that it frees us to proclaim His truth more calmly and more lovingly when we have embraced that we don't have to convince someone else to change. It is when we start feeling the pressure we place on ourselves to change the other person that often go too far, get too emotional, and appear to be personally attacking. When we quit trying to do God's job and focus on only what He asks of us, we are more effective. | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 2348 Registered: 7-2007 |
Francie; it's our job to preach as well as pray because Jesus said to preach it. Jesus said: "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature." Mark 16:15 It's the truth that sets people free. John 8:32 People can be sincere in their religions, but they are sincerely lost. | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 2349 Registered: 7-2007 |
I know, I don't like to hurt people either. I know that feeling, where I hate to tell someone, however kindly, that they're wrong. It's easier to just smile at them and allow them to go to hell than to tell them something that will give them cognitive dissonance and hurt them. I'm not being sarcastic, it's just easier to be friends with people if we aren't hurting them by telling them a painful truth. Let me put it this way. It was easier for God to let Himself be crucified than to let the whole world go to hell, because He LOVES us. (John 3:16) | ||
| Leonie Registered user Username: Leonie Post Number: 40 Registered: 10-2011 |
I have been reading all the posts that you have written - and I simply have to admit that I still have a lot to learn. Guess I'll never feel that I "know it all" - hopefully I'll have an eternity to learn everything, from the Source Himself! As for now, I just praise the Lord that He has opened my eyes about the heresies of the sda church, and that He has set me free. And walking along, I'll just have to take babysteps, until I learn more. Hope you have patience with me as I try to unlearn years of false teachings.... Monica | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 1509 Registered: 7-2004 |
We are all still "unlearning". That is part of why we "meet" here together. |
