| Author | Message | ||
| Rain Registered user Username: Rain Post Number: 33 Registered: 9-2011  |
The recent post containing the link to the comments on the current SS quarterly has led me to one very solid conclusion: my understanding of the Trinity is completely flawed. While what I've read of the comments on the SS quarterly are extremely helpful in pointing out the flaws in Adventist theology, I'm having extreme difficulty in grasping the orthodox idea of what the Trinity is. I've been searching online but haven't found anything that explains it to where it "clicks" for me. Can anyone help me out? Also, I hope everyone here has a happy new year!  | ||
| Bskillet Registered user Username: Bskillet Post Number: 911 Registered: 8-2008 |
Jeremy's website Cult or Christian is very helpful. | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 1664 Registered: 7-2003  |
Rain, For what it's worth, it's probably never going to "click" for you or anyone else because the Bible describes a God that limited creatures like ourselves just can't fully comprehend. The God of the Bible is truly too awesome to wrap our finite minds around. The best we can do is accept what the Bible does tell us about Him even if we can't fully grasp what a being like that is like. I am not going to use any metaphors (and really hope that others won't either) because nearly every metaphor I've ever seen anywhere ends up compromising some important aspect of what the Bible teaches about God. As far as I'm concerned, they're all kind of bad because there really is no direct correspondence in the created universe. Here's basically what we can know about God: 1. There is only one single living being that is God (YHWH). 2. The Father is fully that God (YHWH), The Son is fully that God (YHWH), and the Spirit is fully that God (YHWH). 3. The Father, Son, and Spirit are personally distinct (but one in being, essence, or substance). To put this another way, there is only one single living spirit being that is God, but this one spirit being is eternally defined by relationship. The Father loves the Son, the Son loves the Father, the Spirit reveals the Father, the Spirit magnifies the Son, the Father sends the Spirit, the Son sends the Spirit, etc. So there are true subject/object distinctions between the Father, Son, and Spirit, but the Father, Son, and Spirit are one single spirit being that is eternally in relationship with Himself. Put another way, God does not lack for anything and does not need His creation for relationship or love. God is relationship and love in and of Himself. The fact that we are relational beings is a reflection of the one Being who created us who is always in perfect relationship with Himself. I think as former Adventists it helps to start with a really strong understanding that there is just one indivisible being that is God (not three) and that He is a spirit. If we start there we'll already be closer to an orthodox Christian understanding of who and what God is. From there we just have to accept that that one being is perfect in Himself and is defined by eternal relationship. The closest we can get to describing these relationships is by using the term "persons", but most scholars admit this is an inadequate term, it's just the best we have. So we talk about one single being that eternally exist as three persons. To make it really simple, one "what" and three "whos". If that blows your mind, it should. God is just that awesome. Truly we worship a wonderful and marvelous God. | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 1665 Registered: 7-2003 |
One other note on this: The concept of a Triune being is terribly hard for any of us to grasp, but I think it's especially difficult for SDAs and former SDAs because of a faulty understanding of spirit. Many former SDAs continue to believe that there is no such thing as a human spirit that can survive independent of the corporeal body. So when the Bible says that God is spirit, they're not sure what to make of that and tend to imagine God as a corporeal being despite the biblical evidence that He is not. This forces SDAs and many former SDAs into imagining the Father, Son, and Spirit each with some sort of corporeal form (just invisible to our eyes). However, when the Bible talks about spirit it's not referring to our ability to see something necessarily, but to the fact that spirit is non-corporeal. So instead of imagining three beings with three bodies, we should be imagining one single being without a body. That one spirit is then defined by eternal relationship. At least for me, it's a lot easier to try to wrap my mind around a single omnipresent non-corporeal spirit in relationship with Himself then it is to try and imagine a corporeal Trinity. I really think that is where many SDAs and formers get tripped up. P.S. I am going to guess that the discussion of God as pure spirit will bring up questions regarding the incarnation. Please note that the Son *added* humanity to His divine nature. So it is not quite precise to say that the Son became a Human, although that is correct in so far as it goes, as long as we understand that He didn't transition from being God to being human. It would be more precise to say that the Son never ceased being the one spirit being God while adding a second nature to His person. So the Son added a human spirit and human body to Himself while never ceasing to be the omnipresent spirit being YHWH. So we can still say that God is spirit, but the Son has identified Himself with humanity by adding the nature of humanity to His divine nature. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3852 Registered: 10-2004  |
Chris, excellent explanations! I think you nailed the biggest problem for SDAs/former SDAs: the understanding of "spirit." Because of the SDA denial of spirits, we had to imagine three gods walking around up in heaven while trying to convince ourselves that these three gods were really "one" in some sense. This is almost exactly what the Mormons do with their "Godhead." Rain, here are a couple of links that I put at the end of my commentary, to some helpful explanations of the Christian Trinity: http://www.irr.org/trinity-outline.html (Christian apologist Robert Bowman's study "The Biblical Basis of the Doctrine of the Trinity") http://www.cultorchristian.com/christiantrinity.html (a short collection of helpful Christian quotes on the Trinity) Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on December 31, 2011) | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 1666 Registered: 7-2003 |
Really great commentary Jeremy! I read every word and posted a link to it on my Facebook page. I'm really impressed. You're right, if you deny the reality of a non-corporeal spirit than you can't possibly begin to understand a God that is spirit. | ||
| Mjcmcook Registered user Username: Mjcmcook Post Number: 290 Registered: 2-2011 |
~Chris & Jeremy~ Thank-you both so very much for your clear explanations regarding GOD as Spirit~ I really appreciate your devotion to Truth, wherever it will take you~ Praying God's Blessing on your lives in '2012'~ ~*~mj~*~ | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3853 Registered: 10-2004 |
Thanks, Chris. It was your studies on the Trinity right here on this forum back in 2004 that helped me start to see the differences between the SDA doctrine and the Christian Trinity, for which I am very grateful. Thanks, MJ, same to you. Happy New Year MJ, Chris, and everyone on the forum! Jeremy | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 7538 Registered: 9-2006  |
I think of the trinity in this way. There is only one ultimate all powerful being and that is God. His power exceeds anything that we might understand. |
