| Author | Message | ||
| Butterfly_poette Registered user Username: Butterfly_poette Post Number: 114 Registered: 5-2011 |
I don't support assisted suicide. If someone is not at the brink of death, I don't think they should be helped to kill themselves, even if they have an illness. Yet I do think it's fine for people to decide if they no longer want treatments, feeding tubes, or life support if there is no good quality of life and if those things are the only things keeping them alive. My mother and sister are both nurses in nursing homes. They see many elderly people who are bedridden and have feeding tubes. They need catheters and enemas quite often. They shouldn't have to be up in their 80s and 90s living like that. When it's time to go, it's time to go. | ||
| Goose Registered user Username: Goose Post Number: 35 Registered: 11-2011  |
I really appreciate your response, Handmaiden. For it comes from one not standing outside of pain, but inside. This is an issue with no clear cut boundaries. A scripture came to mind today and it was: Revelation 2:10 "Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life." | ||
| Goose Registered user Username: Goose Post Number: 36 Registered: 11-2011 |
Mjcmcook, you are perceptive. I actually do have a couple instances of profound suffering close at hand. One, my elderly mother, at nearly 95, is declining, and 2nd, my Germans Shepherd dog at just 3 years 4 months was recently diagnosed with severe arthritis in her left elbow, and that precipitated an event wherein she badly injured her right elbow. She is now home after two days in a veterinarian hospital where she underwent surgery. But I still do remember the many horribly suffering patients I saw as a chaplain resident in a level II trauma hospital. I mentioned in an earlier post, the man suffering from colon cancer with blockage. With no where else to go, I and his family witnessed his excrement exit is mouth! His wife bolted from his room and I had to go chase after her. This is just one instance of so many things I saw at that hospital--not an experience most people have,..so you have to grant that I speak from experience. I remember also a crisis call I received on my pager one morning, to the emergency department. A man that had been suffering from emphysema for years, carrying an oxygen bottle with him everywhere he went, and he was in decline. One day after his son's children had gone to school, he shot himself in the head. There was nothing I could do to help this man at that point, but his son was waiting in the "family room." His dad was dead and I asked if he wanted to view the body and he said, "No. I will just remember him as he was. I have to go clean up before my kids come home from school." God will be he judge of these suffering people and not us. I still feel that palliative care physician was right when he said "If any of you have any moral or religious judgments, either get into this persons shoes, or SHUT UP!" As humans we do seem to have a penchant for judgment. Even though it was written "judge not, lest you be judged." | ||
| Mjcmcook Registered user Username: Mjcmcook Post Number: 245 Registered: 2-2011 |
~Goose~ It sounds like you could use a (((((HUG))))) as well as prayers~ Consider that you have both in this post from me  ~mj~ | ||
| Handmaiden Registered user Username: Handmaiden Post Number: 272 Registered: 7-2008 |
Dear Goose, Words fail us when it comes to expressing the deep anquish of soul at losing a parent, a child, sometimes even a stranger's death or even a beloved pet. Death is painful for the dying and for those living, who go through it with them. i am so sorry for the ripping that you are in the midst of. Letting go is never easy...whether death comes suddenly or is drawn out to the extreme. Life is hard and death is even harder. My heart aches for you. All i know is that i know Jesus and the things that are too heavy and too hurtful for me to carry, i put in His hands. He is a Man of sorrow acqainted with grief... He knows it all. He bore it all. i only know the sorrow that has touched my life...but He knows the sorrow that has touched each and every life. i know we will never understand the depth of suffering that He endured, the full price of all of our sin. i cannot begin to imagine the horror of it all. But i do know that no matter how excruciating the pain, or how deep the pit like Corrie ten boom said God's love is deeper still. What shall separate us from the love of God??? i know as bad as all the evil is in this world that it could be worse even yet, but God in His mercy has held it back... only a portion really touches us. i know in my heart of hearts that no pain, no grief, no sorrow has ever come to me, that has not passed through His heart first and He took the blow for me. i love Him. i trust Him. i cling to Him. i count it all loss except for Him. He is all and all and everything to me and He is worth it all. Never let your trials get between you and God to push you away from Him. Put them behind you and let them push you into His heart for you and alllll those around you. i have learned .... first hand experience that trials and suffering are not our enemies but opportunities to grow in faith and to prove the faithfulness of God. Suicide is not the unforgivable sin. Mercy killing is not the unforgivable sin. i can completely understand someone doing both and have been closer to both than i care to admit. God does not judge these sins...they have been judged and paid for already, on the cross with all the rest of our sins. There is only one unforgivable sin, only one sin that will separate us from God forever and it is not murder... Moses was a murderer, David was a murderer, and so was Paul. i believe they are all in heaven now. The unforgivable sin is rejecting Jesus, as our Saviour and His sacrifcial suffering and death for our sin. There is no other sacrifice for sin. i do believe in heaven and hell. I do believe that our choice to accept Jesus or reject Jesus ends at our physical death. i do believe hell is a place of eternal torment. Rejecting Jesus as our Saviour is an eternal sin against an eternal God that requires an eternal punishment. Man was created for the purpose of being with God forever. We were created with an immortal soul that inhabits a mortal body. Man will live forever in heaven with God or in hell without Him. i do believe that for the unsaved-unbelievers, who are suffering in terminal illness that ending their physical life does send them on to a place far worse. i do believe saved/believers that are suffering ending their physical lives sends them into the arms of Jesus. i do not have the right to make that choice for them or even for myself. i know i am saved. i know where i am going and i long to be there .... there is nothing holding me here...i woould have gone long before now, if it were up to me. But it is not. i will serve God here as long as He leaves me here. My mother, who begged me to let her go...did not know Jesus for all of those painful years. She accepted Jesus the day before she died and her death was a peaceful one at last. i know i will see her again. i will always be grateful for the strength God gave me to endure what seemed unendurable. That verse judge not lest you be judged does not mean that we are not to judge anything at allll. We are to judge. We are to judge between good and evil. We make judgments everyday. We judge that it is right to stop at a red light and judge that a green light is ok to drive on. Our court system is based on judgment. What that verse means is that in the manner that you judge, you will also be judged. In other words if i judge harshly.. i will be judged harsly. If i judge comapssionately... i will be judged compassionately. if i determine that a crime deserves a certain punishment, then i know that if i commit that crime that is the punishment i will receive. We will judge the angels in heaven of course we are to judge here but like the golden rule - treat others how you want them to treat you...so judge others as you want to be judged. We are not to judge the lost they are already under condemnation. We are only to judge those of household of God and let us judge with mercy and not with pride...lest we also fall. Goose, i know that you will not agree with all that i have written and that is ok. But please know that you and your mom and your dog are all in my prayes and i do care. love handmaiden | ||
| Kelleigh Registered user Username: Kelleigh Post Number: 274 Registered: 7-2011  |
faith is a many splendored thing | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 1378 Registered: 7-2004  |
Handmaiden, If the idea of an unbeliever suffering great distress and pain near the end of their life is to encourage them to choose God, then isn't it also wrong to provide high doses of pain medication that would prevent them from experiencing what God intended? Again, this is the logical extension of your argument. I point these out, not to convince you or anyone else to favor assisted suicide. I have already been clear that I couldn't choose it, nor personally assist someone. Rather, I hope to increase understanding of the complexity of this issue. The simple arguments, on both sides of this topic, will also produce conclusions that we disagree with. One rule of logic is that if we can apply the same reasoning to a different subject and reach a conclusion that we reject, then the logic wasnt valid in the first place. | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 1653 Registered: 7-2003  |
I hesitate to say this for fear of sounding as if I am endorsing Catholicism (I am not), but having worked for a Catholic healthcare organization for 17 years there are certain things I’ve come to respect. One thing I respect is the level of scholarship and thought that the Catholic tradition has put into what is referred to as “a consistent ethic of life”. This consistent ethic of life recognizes the imago dei in every human life and therefore seeks to treat life as holy in all phases, beginning to end. Many people therefore assume that such an ethic would lead to efforts to preserve life at all costs. It does not. The paradigm recognizes that death and dying are part of the imperfect human condition as it now is and that death is unavoidable this side of the resurrection. The taking of human life is seen as within the purview of God alone, however that does not imply the necessity of taking what are termed “extraordinary means” to maintain life. Determining what is extraordinary is not as simple as creating a list of procedures and interventions. It requires careful consideration of individual cases usually by an ethics committee that includes theologians and medical professionals. What may be extraordinary in one case may not be in another. The determination is related to a number of factors, but in general attempts to determine if the interventions are likely to be both inappropriately burdensome and futile. Believe it or not, the problem we deal with almost exclusively is families refusing to let go of a loved one and insisting on extraordinary measures to extend the life of the loved one. We almost never deal with someone wanting to artificially end or shorten the life of a loved one. Our challenge is much more in the realm of helping people accept the reality and inevitability of death. | ||
| Handmaiden Registered user Username: Handmaiden Post Number: 274 Registered: 7-2008 |
Dear Rick, i encourage everyone i know to accept the Lord as their Saviour. Life is fragile. Death comes unexpectedly. No one is guaranteed tomorrow let alone the next minute. i would NEVER withold pain medication in the hopes of procurring a death bed conversion or as a scare tatic that hell is even worse than what you are going through now. It has been my experience that the unsaved with a terminal illness and in pain are angry with God and not very receptive to the Gospel. My point about the unsaved terminally ill in pain is that mercy killing them would NOT be mercy as it would send them to a far worse place of torment. The worse pain here i would think would be better than there. Again i do not believe in hastening anyone's death that is not our call but God's. i do believe in making the terminally ill as comfortable as possible. Again i think opening this door of mercy killing will end up like abortion. It will start out with rules and regulations and two doctors and of course VOLUNTARY. But then age and quality of life and cost and over population will be factored in and away we go. There have already been cases like Terri Shivo. Abortion was supposed to be for only certain extreme cases ...now it is used for birth control and gender selection. At first you could only abort in the first trimester ... and then well ok the second trimester... now a child can be murdered within minutes of birth. Mercy killing is a pandora's box better left unopened. Better left in better hands than ours. love handmaiden | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 1379 Registered: 7-2004 |
Chris, I too respect the Catholic consistency regarding the value of life. It isn't an endorsement of their theology to point out an area of ethics where they have employed logical consistency. The Catholic church has a rich history of philosophy and ethics. Handmaiden, Please don't misunderstand what I was saying. I didnt think for a moment that you endorsed any of the things I suggested that your arguments lead to. The fact that you didn't endorse ose conclusions, even though they came from the same logic, was my point. Just like your very valid point that mercy killing is a pandoras box best left unopened, some of the arguments against assisted suicide are a pandoras box of their own. For instance, insisting that the moments of our birth and our death should be in God's hands alone. That is a noble sentiment, and clearly comes from a heart for God. But applying that principle equally in medical situations could mean, no induced labor, no C-sections, and no life saving measures to anyone dying. I don't think any of us are in favor of that, but it is the pandoras box opened by insisting that only God can choose those times. I also think you may be wrongly concluding that I disagree with your conclusions. That isn't the case, at least not entirely. I think you make an excellent point about the potential for mercy killing to grow in application, that it is a dangerous precedent. And I loved your earlier point about having empathy with those who chose either suicide or euthanasia, and that this act did not put them outside of God's grace. I love how your posts express the compassion you feel for people. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 13197 Registered: 12-2003  |
Wow, what an interesting thread! The weekends get pretty overwhelming here sometimes, but I've clearly missed a great discussion. Chris, I am compelled by your summary above:
My father died 10 years ago in October. He had suffered many mini-strokes and had become quite diminished cognitively and verbally. When he developed a life-threatening infection, he was "ambulanced" to the hospital, put on IV antibiotics, etc etc. He did overcome the infection, but his overall condition was greatly compromised. His progressive problem he had of choking/not being able to swallow had become much, much worse. He was more likely to choke than to swallow if anything was put in his mouth, so he could not eat on his own. He had a DNR order, and my mother decided not to try to intervene with any life-prolonging procedures/treatments. My nurse-sis agreed, and I did as well. He died within two weeks, and I struggled afterward with the whole issue. We were newly out of Adventism, and it was a new thought to me that he was with the Lord. As I thought about it, though, I realized that perhaps I have to trust God with end-of-life as well as beginning-of-life. I had always felt sympathetic to euthenasia as well as abortion, but I was realizing that my new understanding of humans having spirits that exist apart from the body changed the way I saw both conception AND death. I don't feel I can decide these details for any other person; I only know that I have to trust God in each situation in my own life as it occurs. If I had the death of my dad to "do over", I'd at least say more than I said to my mom and sister. The outcome might still have been the same...but the decision to stop all IV fluids now seems to me to be not so clear cut as it did then. I do not feel dogmatic about these details, but I know that God asks me to trust Him. I'm not trying to hide behind platitudes...this is a question that still seems difficult to me. Colleen | ||
| Kelleigh Registered user Username: Kelleigh Post Number: 275 Registered: 7-2011 |
Chris's comment struck a cord with me also. Last year, after enduring the complications of end-stage diabetes for almost five years, my father in law's life extending medical treatment was withdrawn. He'd already had both legs amputated and had been in and out of intensive care for more than two years. On one occasion he was vomiting faeces. On another occasion endured the distress of a perforated bladder due to the slip of a scapel during surgery. The instances of his suffering are too multiple to mention here. Just before Christmas last year the treating doctor approached Mum and asked the inevitable question, should medical treatment be continued? Mum asked Dad what his wishes were. He said he wanted 'to go this time'. Mum respected Dad's decision and she lost her companion of 50 years. The treating doctor later related that many families try to hang onto their loved one and Mum had made a difficult yet compassionate decision. In two weeks time we mark the first anniversary of his passing. Dad died with unwavering faith and he is dearly, dearly missed. We have contemplated some difficult questions in this thread. If not already, many of us will be confronted by them personally one day. Because we are all different and circumstances vary, different conclusions will be reached. Reading this thread has helped mellow my opinion. (Message edited by Kelleigh on December 05, 2011) | ||
| Handmaiden Registered user Username: Handmaiden Post Number: 275 Registered: 7-2008 |
Dear Ric, Iron sharpens iron. Ok so i am NOT the most logical person. i do know right from wrong and good from evil. Human life is the most valuable and precious thing on earth by virtue of the fact that human life was not redeemed by silver or gold but by the precious blood of our Lord Jesus. i have never met a person that Jesus did not love or a person that Jesus did not die for. i meet a lot of unlovely people ( many of the residents in our rehalb clinic are fresh out of prison ) and i know that they need love the most. I ask God to give me His love for each one i meet and He always does. i believe in miracles and too often God is left out of the equation when major decisions or dilemmas are discussed. i work with doctors and they can be the worst at playing god. i dont have alllll the answers. When i have a tough decision to make, i always try to decide which side i would rather be wrong on. i would rather be wrong voting for life than wrong voting for death. i try to live my life without regrets. Thank you for your logic and your kind words. May God continue to sharpen your mind and strengthen your heart. May He bless you and your family and your ministry. love handmaiden Colleen and Kelleigh, i am sorry for the loss of your fathers and what you had to go through. You are right most of us will face this decision at some point in our lives. It is not an easy decision either way.May God continue to guide us and give us wisdom. love handmaiden | ||
| Goose Registered user Username: Goose Post Number: 40 Registered: 11-2011 |
Earlier, I quoted a verse from the Book of Revelations,... "Be thou faithful unto death and I will give thee a crown of life." I just kind of put that verse out there to see if there was any comment on it. The verse can not be used to support the idea that someone who chooses death with dignity will not have a crown of life. The verse in context is referring to being willing to be martyred. So, what do we think? Are the illnesses and diseases that befall and virtually eat away at humans akin to martyrdom?? | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 13227 Registered: 12-2003 |
I don't know that I can make a blanket response to that question, Goose. I believe that as believers, being faithful means walking through whatever God allows with trust, surrendering our "right" to direct the outcomes. It's always appropriate to ask God for what we wish, but I believe He's in the business of teaching us to trust Him even when we can't see how "it" could all resolve. He is certain. Always. Colleen | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 7509 Registered: 9-2006  |
This thread kind of affects me because I have taken care of way too many patients who are terminally ill to suit me and I am glad I am out of that and in a less stressful job. The one extreme situation that I was in was when I had to take care of a bone cancer patient. The patients wish was that we, meaning his brother and I, would keep him out of the terrible pain. The doctors put a morphine injection computer that injected morphine at certain timed intervals and it would be illegal to over ride that computer. However, and privately, he gave us the key to over ride the computer. He said he wasn’t saying to use it, but what he was saying without actually saying it was the pain would become worse as time went on. My philosophy has always been to give aid and comfort to the dying, but never to take that life. It still is. As time went on the computer was re-set to give one injection an hour, but in the last week of the poor mans life, the pain rose so sharply that the one injection was not doing the job. His brother asked me to over-ride the computer to every half hour and I gave him permission and said I would do it. Now anybody that knows medicine knows that the guy most likely is going to die from morphine poisoning. His brother and I took turns 24 hours a day staying up with this guy until he died, eventually it was every fifteen minutes that we over rode that machine. Did we kill the guy? I pray that we did the right thing, yet I pray God to forgive if we didn’t, to this day I do not know. In the end we were both worn to a frazzle and when it was over his brother hugged me and thanked me for helping him through this trying time of helping his brother die without going through the terrible pain. We both cried a little bit, we became very close in that time. It is very hard at times to know the right thing to do. I live in Washington and I am firmly against using lethal injection on a patient, but I’m not being glib about it either. I don’t think it should have ever become law, because that is a slippery slope. River | ||
| Skeeter Registered user Username: Skeeter Post Number: 1720 Registered: 12-2007  |
(((((River)))) I hope if I am ever at deaths door and in great pain there will be someone there beside me who will act with compassion to relieve that pain and pray with and for me until it is time for me to go. I pray I would have the courage and the compassion to do the same for someone else. | ||
| Trans4mer Registered user Username: Trans4mer Post Number: 76 Registered: 9-2011  |
Has anyone seen the documentary "How To Die In Oregon"? I think it was on the History or Science channel. I believe its possible to get it on demand with most cable / satellite or just buy the DVD. Death with dignity is growing in some states. I read that its being lobbied for fed. Washington and I think Montana now have it. The way it works as I understood it, that the patient himself/herself has to have medical verification and family witnesses but can drink a 'cocktail' that will painlessly end their life very quickly. I say it now, but one never knows, I'd do it in a blink if diagnosed with the big terminal C. Charles | ||
| Goose Registered user Username: Goose Post Number: 42 Registered: 11-2011 |
Thanks everyone, for all the continued discussion on this very important, yet not black and white topic. I found this question and answer on the deathwithdignity.org website and thought it worthy of sharing. Question: "Is the Oregon or Washington Death with Dignity Act the equivalent of "playing God?" Proposed answer: "Those whose spiritual beliefs include opposition to physician-assisted dying are free to not use the Oregon, Washington, or Montana law. However, many others with strong religious and spiritual beliefs also support a dying patient's right to make one's own end-of-life decisions. Limiting one's end-of-life options to suffering terrible physical and emotional agony and the loss of personal dignity is neither humane nor divine." "Those who are trapped in prolonged suffering prior to an inevitable death, and who choose to hasten that death, make that choice not as God, but as a conscious, self-determined individual. This is no more "playing God" than to suggest one more procedure, one more pill, or one more feeding tube may preserve a life that is all but ended." | ||
| Goose Registered user Username: Goose Post Number: 43 Registered: 11-2011 |
River described, a few posts above, how that a patient pleaded to be spared from the pain of dying of bone cancer which eventually required the dispensing of so much morphine, that the dose may have actually become lethal. It seems in the case that was described, the only difference between it and "death with dignity," is that it was others who made the decision when and how this person was to die. So, I am trying to see why this makes hastening death different than the individual making the choice. In fact, when I come to think of it, this person who had pleaded to not be allowed to suffer unbearable pain, did the same thing, except it was more prolonged. What if there are no or few caring and compassionate relatives or loved ones around to insure the pain is controlled such as in that case? I, again, offer a biblical example of how someone made a conscious decision to avert suffering a painful death,...and that act did not exclude him from going to be with God. The scenario of the Apostle Peter, where he fulfilled Jesus' prophecy of how he would deny that he knew Jesus, I believe, offers us some insight into how averting suffering is viewed/ judged by God. After foretelling Peter how he would deny Him, Jesus, in the very next breath said "Let not your heart be troubled....I go to prepare a place for you." We can not say that Jesus was not addressing Peter in John 14, because Jesus continued to answer the questions Peter had asked at the end of John 13. Is there that much difference between what Peter did, in deciding to avert a torturous death, and a person, diagnosed with a terminal illness, with 6 months or less to live, choosing to avert a torturous death? If there isn't any difference between these two situations, then we may offer a person choosing death with dignity the same hope that Jesus offered Peter. |
