| Author | Message | ||
| Goose Registered user Username: Goose Post Number: 41 Registered: 11-2011  |
Sure wish folk would stay on topic | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3846 Registered: 10-2004  |
Goose, Sorry, threads always seem to wander into various topics around here.  Unfortunately, I'm not sure that threads can be split with this forum software. Jeremy | ||
| Mjcmcook Registered user Username: Mjcmcook Post Number: 261 Registered: 2-2011 |
~Goose~ It seems that if a person posts a thread that could even possibly have anything to do with creation, in anyone's mind, you are going to get responses like the ones on your original'thread' regarding who is responsible for T-Rex coming into being! So, Beware, the next time you have the urge to write a similar post! ~mj~ | ||
| Martinc Registered user Username: Martinc Post Number: 260 Registered: 9-2006 |
Goose, I liked your question so much I decided to write a little essay about it. It's almost done, and it's definitely on topic! Martin C | ||
| Kelleigh Registered user Username: Kelleigh Post Number: 308 Registered: 7-2011  |
This thread is a run away train. Hang on and enjoy the ride! :-) | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 13226 Registered: 12-2003  |
Can't wait to read it, Martin! Colleen | ||
| Martinc Registered user Username: Martinc Post Number: 261 Registered: 9-2006 |
Who Can Stand Before Him? Going to a museum can be a test of faith in the goodness of God, especially while we are walking the halls of the dinosaurs. Nearly everything there reminds us of death and violence. When you stand under the mounted skeleton of a tyrannosaurus rex and look up, you have good reasons to feel disquieted. With its massive head, 6-inch teeth, and savage maw, you can only imagine the despair of its victims just before the end came. The awful majesty of this creature seems to belong to the dark world of Darwin’s nightmares, where life is a violent struggle and a benevolent God is a vain hope. Atheists love the T-rex as a favorite argument for godlessness. Consequently some Christians have trouble with T-rex, thinking that a group of cynical scientists must have gathered up a great pile of random bones, and like boys with Legos, gleefully constructed the scariest monster they could imagine. However, there is no doubt in my mind that T-rex was real; I have seen whole skeletons such as “Sue” who survived the millennia mostly intact. Others, such as creationist writer Ken Ham, believe that T-rex was originally created by God as a vegetarian, but after the Fall, somehow changed its body into that of a predator and took a liking for fresh meat. Mr. Ham imagines T-rex living in the first Paradise, peacefully munching on shrubbery, accepting friendly pats from Eve. Today, when I see this monster close up, I can only see a perfect design for killing, and my first impulse is to hide. Like all predators, the body and behavior of T-rex perfectly suited the very pinnacle of the food chain, a design that could only come from one Creator. T-rex’s 6” teeth were useless for eating vegetation. Its binocular vision, massive jaws, and s-curve neck were designed for spotting, overpowering, and tearing apart prey. Do we wish to exclude this animal from God’s creation because it violates our standards of virtue or beauty? While we’re at it, we’ll have to ask ourselves about lions. Although less intimidating and more regal in appearance, they fill the same niche in their food chain. At what point does a predator fail to meet our standard of divine design? The earth is the Lords and everything in it (Ps. 24:1), and no part of it ever belonged to Satan. There is no Biblical evidence that Satan ever created or modified the body of any animal. T-rex was certainly not nice or pretty, but it belonged to God and held a needed place in its ecosystem. There it served God’s purposes until its time was up. And that brings us to another reason for the most terrifying predator of all time. In Job 41, God is telling Job about the fierce monster he created called Leviathan. God is obviously pleased with Leviathan, and uses the creature to make a greater point: “Behold, the hope of a man is false; he is laid low even at the sight of him (Leviathan). No one is so fierce that he dares to stir him up. Who then is he who can stand before me? Who has first given to me, that I should repay him? Whatever is under the whole heaven is mine.” Job 41:9-11 The Lord Jesus is called the lion of the tribe of Judah. As Mr. Beaver said in “The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe,” this Lion is no tame Lion. He has both magnificence and terrifying power. Even though He is the Lamb, He will always have the terrible teeth and claws. Like other great predators, He reminds us of our weakness and folly in His presence. We dare not stir Him up, or think we can make Him indebted to us. All heaven and earth has been given to Him, so all lesser hopes are false. So we don’t have to think of Satan when we see the terrible teeth of tyrannosaurus rex. Instead, we can give a little shiver, and delight in the amazing power and imagination of Christ who made everything for Himself (Colossians 1:16). “Oh come, let us worship and bow down; let us kneel before the LORD, our Maker!” Psalms 95:6 Martin C | ||
| Kelleigh Registered user Username: Kelleigh Post Number: 311 Registered: 7-2011 |
I enjoyed reading your essay Martin. You write well. Yes - what to make of those larger than life articulated skeletons? I visited the museum in Melbourne a few months ago and felt troubled about the same thing. You had my attention from the outset and developed a very thoughtful argument. You've given me a fresh perspective. The thing that still bothers me though is that at some stage T-Rex must have been a vegetarian. Death didn’t exist before The Fall. What did T-Rex eat before The Fall? And why was she created with big scary teeth? Maybe the vegetation required razor sharp choppers? | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 1398 Registered: 7-2004  |
Biblical Facts Versus Speculations I hope that I can layout, Biblically, what are clear facts and what are speculations along with the reasons why those points should be classified as speculations rather than facts. I think that all of the viewpoints presented require some degree of speculation. I'm not suggesting that a conclusion is incorrect because it involves some speculation. But I do think that recognizing the speculations required in our own positions increases our ability to listen objectively to other viewpoints without cries or insinuations of heresy. Facts: Angels are created beings (Psalm 148) Angels existed before the creation of the earth (Job 38:4-7) Angels are spirit beings (Heb 1:13-14) Angels reside in the heavenly Jerusalem (Heb 12:22) Satan is described as being richly clothed in jewels and gold while in the Garden of Eden (Eze 28:13) God, not satan, is the creator of all things (Col 1:15-16) Sin brought death to man (5:12) Speculations: Whether or not the creation of angels is part of the 6 day creation account. It is not specifically mentioned one way or the other. In order to reconcile Job 38, angels had to be created before Gen 1:2 but this still allows for their creation being implied in Gen 1:1. The idea of splitting Gen 1:1-2 apart from the 6 day account of creation is speculative. In favor of this view is the point that each of the other days begins with "And God said". Verse 3 starts that way, suggesting to some that this is where the first day of creation account begins. Others would contend that Ex 20:11 requires that verses 1-2 are included with the first day account. It is also speculative to split apart the timing of the creation in Gen 1:1 to indicate that the heavens were created before the earth based solely on the order they are presented in the sentence. It is speculative to conclude whether or not the creation of "heaven and earth" in Gen 1:1 (and referenced in Ex 20:11) is referring to the place where the Heavenly Jerusalem and the third heaven that Paul visited exist (2 Cor 12:2). One view is that heaven is heaven, if God's Word says heaven was created on the same day earth was created that includes both the expanse of the physical universe and the Spiritual "dwelling place" of God (1 Kings 8:30; Matt 5:16). The word heaven is used multiple ways in Scripture. It is used to refer to our atmosphere (Deut 28:12; Acts 14:17), outer space (Jer 8:2; Isa 13:10), and the dwelling place of God, the angels, and the saints. Because of this, some conclude that the creation of heaven and earth referred to in Ex 20:11 is referring only to the physical/visible heaven. The atmosphere and outer space but not to the "dwelling place" of God. (I use "dwelling place" in quotes because it is a direct quote from Scripture while at the same time Scripture recognizes that God is omnipresent which makes the idea of a specific dwelling place an oxymoron. Chalk it up to the mysteries of God). When satan sinned. Obviously he could not have sinned before he was created. And he was blameless from his creation until the time that he fell (Eze 28:15). It is speculative to conclude that the description of his rich adornment in Eden suggests that he had not yet sinned. Although it is equally speculative to conclude that satan fell before the creation of the earth. Whether the discussion of death coming about due to sin applies to plants and animals or only to man. As discussed previously in this thread, Rom 8:19-22 is the closest thing to a declarative passage on the subject and even it leaves room for multiple viewpoints (as seen on this thread). Whether God and/or the heavenly Jerusalem exist outside of time. This concept is a common speculation about God and His kingdom which has been used to explain apparent discrepancies in Scripture. Although a common explanation, it is a speculative one that is not spelled out in Scripture. | ||
| Lori Registered user Username: Lori Post Number: 136 Registered: 11-1999 |
Hi, Goose! In answer to your question, I think Gen 1:1 being a re-creation of the earth answers a lot of questions regarding things that can't be explained in a 7 day creation week. Without light and heat this earth would quickly become frozen. We aren't told what happened between the time God created the heavens and the earth and the time that he re-created the earth. Isaiah 45:18 supports a re-creation. "For this is what the Lord says....he who fashioned and made the earth.....he did not create it be empty but formed it to be inhabited." There's that empty word from Gen 1:2. If all light (and heat) were removed the first creation would have frozen. If there were large creatures who had roamed the earth they would have been sealed in ice. Explains the existence of an ice age and dinosaurs. The fact there were dinosaurs on this earth, at some point, is undeniable!! Perhaps, for angels, they were the equivalent to horses, dogs and cats that we have today. There are no definite answers but the earth could have been a wonderful playground for angels! Perhaps after the fall of angels God closed the earth for a period of time. One thing I do know-the Bible is not a scientific textbook. It says very little about science. The Bible is a communication of God's plan and spirtual phenomena--it is to explain spiritual things not earthly things. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3847 Registered: 10-2004 |
Thanks, Rick. I can see that the reason for at least some of our disagreements is that we disagree on what is speculative and what is fact. Much of what you say is speculative is speculative only if you don't take into account all of Scripture and don't insist on a harmonized account of everything Scripture says. Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on December 15, 2011) | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 1402 Registered: 7-2004 |
Jeremy, I must tell you that I have little patience for the "taking into account all of Scripture" argument. This is a popular argument from SDA apologists when they run out of any specific texts to cite. If you have specific passages that demonstrate these speculations to be facts, please post those for everyone's edification. Actually I find that many attempts to "harmonize" the accounts of Scripture require speculation. Again, I'm not saying that speculation itself is wrong, or that God does not want us to use our brains. I am merely contending for a recognition of what aspects of a teaching are speculative and what aspects are based on a plain and direct teaching of Scripture. | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 1403 Registered: 7-2004 |
Goose, I'm not certain that the digressions are as off-topic as you might think. Answering questions about T-Rex delves into who created and whether satan had any power to create or modify. It raises the question of what is meant when God declares His creation good. It raises the question of what did occur at the time of sin. The questions of satan's sin and fall are ancillary questions to the larger question about creation, sin, and death. So please don't think of the posts as hijacking your thread, instead try to enjoy the broad approach being brought to the understanding of your original question. | ||
| Martinc Registered user Username: Martinc Post Number: 262 Registered: 9-2006 |
Kelleigh, I'm glad you like the little T-rex essay. One of the things that strikes me about the dinosaurs is that their discovery in the last 200 years has forced Christians to ask hard questions. Just like the expansion of the known universe has expanded our view of God's greatness, dinosaurs also push the envelope of our faith. Since God is in control of history, not Satan, we have to see this as a blessing, not just a threat. Another problem that the meat-eating dinosaurs pose for us is, as you pointed out, how their anatomy strongly indicates predation. Through the ages, most Christians have accepted that before the Fall, there was no death. Lately, I have questioned that orthodoxy for the following reasons: 1. Most agree that there was plant death and decay in the Garden. That indicates for me that the processes of "corruption" were already written by God into the laws of physics and chemistry. Animals and man ate living things that they digested and eliminated, and as Chris showed us, this was part of a well-working ecosystem. These processes are not evil, but beautifully designed by a loving Creator. Satan had no part in any of that. 2. Animal death is another question, but seems to be only a small logical leap from plant death and decay processes that most agree were present. The Bible doesn't directly say that animal death was not present in the Garden, although it says plants were given to all for food. I'm not certain that disallows any predation. 3. The Tree of Life existed in the very good garden, before the Fall. What was its purpose? Could it be that eternal life has always been a gift of God? After the Fall, Adam and Eve were banished from the Garden so they could not eat of that tree and live forever. As Colleen pointed out, the curse of the ground affected the earth in basic ways, so that agriculture became a life struggle. Their bodies were also changed, but it does not specifically say how. 4. Before the Fall, they lived in Paradise, a walled garden. They were commanded to "subdue the earth," suggesting that not everything about the earth, especially outside of the protected garden, was as habitable or friendly. Again, subduing could include death of plants, if not animals. 5. Suffering and death are not equivalent to evil. In God's good hands, suffering is a tool of ultimate good. That Christians often assume that their suffering is only evil shows our Epicurean/Platonist influences. God's glory is not best displayed in making a perfect utopia for creatures to feel satisfied, pain-free lives. His glory is best displayed in His offering of Himself to suffer for, and shower abundant grace upon, the lost. God did not commit evil, but He decreed that evil fit right into His plans, and was not a surprise to which he desperately reacted. It may be that God wrote suffering into His cosmos from the beginning in preparation, not only for the Fall, but to prepare the way for Christ to suffer for us. He was always the Lamb slain for us, and He is the reason for creation. In Isaiah 40 through 47, we see a God who is far more than a reacting God. For that reason alone, I am willing to consider that suffering was somehow built into the very basic laws of the cosmos from the beginning. Knowing the Christ who poured out His soul unto death for us brings far greater joy than merely being comfortable in Paradise. Martin C | ||
| Kelleigh Registered user Username: Kelleigh Post Number: 313 Registered: 7-2011 |
Martin, you have really challenged my thinking. Last night I couldn't get to sleep. Kept thinking about T-Rex and trying to place her in a newly created world. To me she looks ugly and scary. So out of place. I guess I really did assimilate a Arthur Maxwell's bedtime story version of the newly created world - manicured landscapes with peaceful herbivores munching moose moss. It's time to put away childish things. In Australia we have large reptiles called salt water crocodiles. They're pretty ferocious and quite ugly looking. A few years back I visited a crocodile sanctuary while on holiday. My previous opinion about crocodiles changed that day. Instead of seeing ugly, I saw them as beautiful, majestic creatures that deserve our upmost respect. I fell in love with these creatures. Maybe T-Rex was beautiful in her own way too? Tonight I'm going to re-read the creation story in the context of your points. Thanks for sharing them. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 13233 Registered: 12-2003 |
Martin, thank you again. Your essay is wonderful, and your five points above are provocative. I suspect there's a whole lot we don't know...including how the earth changed after the flood, and what kinds of things could have survived before and after. I know, however, that my awe of God has only increased as I have realized that Satan is not responsible for thorns and decay. As an Adventist I learned that thorns and thistles were the result of Satan at work in the sinful world, that Satan was responsible for decay and death and hardship. The Bible is quite clear that God is responsible for all things, including the curse of the earth. God, not Satan, is lord of the dinosaurs and thorn bushes. We gave Satan so much illegitimate power. God is the One in charge of all creation—never Satan.] Colleen | ||
| Martinc Registered user Username: Martinc Post Number: 263 Registered: 9-2006 |
Kelleigh, My son loves the great crocodiles of northern Australia, and was a huge fan of Steve Irwin, the "croc hunter." He learned to love and respect all animals through that show, and was heartbroken when he died. Right Colleen, there is surely a lot we don't know. The Bible is deliberately written in such spare language, leaving many questions. I don't want to be dogmatic about any of this, and it is actually very liberating not to have to know everything. Knowing Jesus, the universe has taken on a brightness it never had before, knowing that its worst aspects are brimming with purpose. We will see our Redeemer with our own eyes as He fills the universe with Himself. Martin C | ||
| Kelleigh Registered user Username: Kelleigh Post Number: 317 Registered: 7-2011 |
Martin, the trip to northern Australia I mentioned was taken at the time that Steve Irwin died. We were staying in Port Douglas. I had a snorkling trip booked for Low Isle (near where his crew were filming the sting-rays) on the day of the tragic accident. It was a very sad time. The air in Port Douglas was palpable. Like when Princess Diana died. Steve Irwin was a great ambassador for conservation. | ||
| Kelleigh Registered user Username: Kelleigh Post Number: 318 Registered: 7-2011 |
"The Bible is deliberately written in such spare language, leaving many questions" It seems that God doesn't compel us to believe by providing all the evidence. With an exception. At one time in history it appears that God did compel belief. I like to think of this instance as an example that illustrates why having absolute proof doesn't work. Consider the Israelite's miraculous liberation from Egypt - the crossing of the Red Sea, the pillar cloud to guide their journey day and night, water from the rock and manna from heaven, divine communication through Moses, and the Urim and Thummim. Miracles, proofs, answers. Yet the people still rebelled and the entire generation that left Egypt with the exception of two men, expired in the desert. The liberated ones did not enter the Promised Land. We are told in Hebrews 'it was because of their unbelief'. Mind blowing isn't it? But we'd be the same. Demonstrations of power, miracles and proofs may compel belief, but not love. Miracles, proofs and answers do not prevent human rebellion in the long run. They may enforce obedience for a while, but only love can summon a response of love, which is the one thing God wants from us. That is why He sent Jesus. "I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself". "it is actually very liberating not to have to know everything" Ditto. (Message edited by Kelleigh on December 16, 2011) | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 1404 Registered: 7-2004 |
Knowledge is not the same thing as faith. The idea of compelling us to believe by spelling out what we would claim is sufficient scientific detail simply doesn't matter. Demons know with certainty the God exists, but that knowledge does not produce a trusting faith. When we start to internalize that even our faith is a gift from God (Eph 2:8-9), we see the utter emptiness of the knowledge-based (dare I say gnostic) religion we were a part of. |
