| Author |
Message |
Philharris
Registered user
Username: Philharris
Post Number: 2622
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Friday, December 16, 2011 - 8:43 am: |     |
Good morning folks,
I haven’t posted much of late. Partly because of other concerns and partly because my computer was down most of this week. Well I’m back. I just read an interesting devotional and thought I would share my observations since Gideon is one of my favorite biblical characters:
11 Now the angel of the LORD came and sat under the terebinth at Ophrah, which belonged to Joash the Abiezrite, while his son Gideon was beating out wheat in the winepress to hide it from the Midianites. 12 And the angel of the LORD appeared to him and said to him, “The LORD is with you, O mighty man of valor.” 13 And Gideon said to him, “Please, sir, if the LORD is with us, why then has all this happened to us? And where are all his wonderful deeds that our fathers recounted to us, saying, ‘Did not the LORD bring us up from Egypt?’ But now the LORD has forsaken us and given us into the hand of Midian.” 14 And the LORD turned to him and said, “Go in this might of yours and save Israel from the hand of Midian; do not I send you?” 15 And he said to him, “Please, Lord, how can I save Israel? Behold, my clan is the weakest in Manasseh, and I am the least in my father’s house.” (Judges 6 ESV)
First, the ‘angel of the Lord’ in verse eleven is simply the ‘Lord’ who is talking to Gideon when you come to verse fourteen. It was pointed out to me that the Messenger (angel) of the Lord was none other than a preincarnate manifestation of Jesus Christ. The logic is simple. This messenger, who obviously appeared in human form, was not a created angel, but rather was God himself who was speaking to Gideon.
Now, here is the part that I love and take great comfort form: God calls Gideon “O mighty man of valor”. God, knowing all there was to know about Gideon, both who he was at that moment in time and all that Gideon would ever do, made this unconditional statement about how he viewed who Gideon was or ever would be. Weak as Gideon was and how much he failed towards the end of his life, God viewed him as “O mighty man of valor”.
Moral:
None of us are who we are because of our performance. In the history of mankind it never was or is about our ‘performance’. Rather, it is all about having the right faith, the ‘faith of Abraham’. The challenges in my life continue but my strength and joy is not of self and never can be.
Phil |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 7517
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, December 17, 2011 - 1:30 am: | |
Hi Phil,
Firstly I am not convinced at all that the Angel was any other than what the verse 11 reads, an angel sent by God.
The fact that he uses the word Lord later after the start of the account in its own context would only indicate to me that Gideon was speaking with respect to Gods authoritative messenger.
But then that sidetracks the real issue doesn't it? Just saying your pronouncement that the Angel was actually Jesus threw me for a loop.
I wonder how the person that pointed this out to you harmonizes John 1:18 with the account in Judges?
Anyway, so after this rolling around in my head like a sack of marbles I was able to get past it to the real issue which is all about having the right faith when we again come into sharp agreement, the 'faith of Abraham'.
The faith of Abraham indeed enables us to continue to handle lifes 'curve balls'.
So even though we two are limited in our sphere of movement by much the same circumstance, there is no reason why we cannot by faith reach out and expand our horizons, going in the strength and joy of the same God who spoke to Gideon.
You are always an encouragement to me.
River |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 13235
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, December 18, 2011 - 1:09 am: | |
Wonderful insight, Phil.
I also understand the OT "angel of the LORD" to be the preincarnate Christ. In fact, in Judges 2:1 we see this:
quote:Now the angel of the Lord went up from Gilgal to Bochim. And he said, “I brought you up from Egypt and brought you into the land that I swore to give to your fathers. I said, ‘I will never break my covenant with you,
It was God, Yahweh, who brought Israel up out of Egypt and made a covenant with them. Later in Judges when the angel of the Lord appears to Manoah and his wife and tells them they will have Samson, He accepts their sacrifice and worship. Angels never receive sacrifices and worship. Only God receives these.
Colleen |
Philharris
Registered user
Username: Philharris
Post Number: 2626
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, December 18, 2011 - 10:32 am: | |
I would like to make it clear that when something is a POSSIBILITY it doesn’t rise to the level of CERTAINTY without creditable evidence to support that claim.
The fact that Jesus Christ is fully God and has existed from all eternity suggests the POSSIBILITY that certain passages such as I or Colleen made reference to are preincarnate manifestations of Jesus Christ.
The person who pointed this POSSIBILITY out to me knows Hebrew and suggested this base on the Hebrew structure of the word we translate as ‘LORD’ when referring to God. If we also believe that God (the Father) does not have a physical body why not consider it POSSIBLE that it was Jesus Christ who was speaking to Gideon?
Remember, it is the World’s logic to take possibilities or outright lies and repeat them until they are accepted as ‘truth’. When we study scripture or biblically related topics we should willingly leave many things as a POSSIBLITY and other things as a MYSTERY when scripture is silent or does not make a clear statement of FACT. Because the World perverts possibilies and turns outright lies into 'truth' doesn't mean we need to avoid exploring biblical possibities.
Phil |
Johnr1937
Registered user
Username: Johnr1937
Post Number: 29
Registered: 10-2011
| | Posted on Monday, December 19, 2011 - 5:23 pm: | |
Quote: Angels never receive sacrifices and worship. Only God receives these.
A point I must never forget, Colleen.
Also, J. Vernon McGee taught that the O.T uses "The Angel of the Lord" where Christ was meant, whereas the N.T. uses "an Angel of the Lord" when referring to an angel not being THE Lord. |
Indy4now
Registered user
Username: Indy4now
Post Number: 1078
Registered: 2-2008
| | Posted on Friday, December 23, 2011 - 7:03 am: | |
Thanks Phil for posting your thoughts! We just went over this story in our class at church and missed that point!
I think that as we grow in Christ and learn from the Bible that He is faithful, He is sovereign... that our faith grows and we are able to rest in Him. The more we keep our eyes fixed on Him, the more we see Him at work in our lives.
It truly is all about Christ. Thx Phil!
vivian |
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