| Author | Message | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 1869 Registered: 3-2009 |
In a response to the news of some old friend who died, I said that she is now laughing with the Lord. The poster told me, "not yet", and quoted 1Tes. 4; Eccl. 9 and Psalm 115. I know how to deal with 1Tes. and Eccl. But how do you deal with Psalm 115:17; Psalm 6:5 and the entire Psalm 88? I would appreciate some help here. Hec | ||
| Kelleigh Registered user Username: Kelleigh Post Number: 299 Registered: 7-2011  |
In Psalm 115:17 I think the author is employing a literary device to illustrate the importance of praising God on earth rather than making a theological statement about life after death. A dead body is silent. The grave is silent. The author is saying, "don't be as mute as a corpse people! Praise God!" The author is overwhelmed by the unfailing love and faithfulness of God. His message is one of gratefulness and praise. The author may also be comparing the pagan gods mentioned in v 4-8 (those that cannot speak, cannot see, cannot smell) to a dead body, that is, 'the gods of the pagans are as much use as a dead corpse. Don't be as useless and sensless as the pagans and their gods'! ("those who make idols are just like them" v 8). 'Instead sing praises to God now and forever!' | ||
| Kelleigh Registered user Username: Kelleigh Post Number: 300 Registered: 7-2011 |
After reading Ps 88 and 6:5 I think the concept of the grave, here too, is being used as a literary device. The grave is a powerful metaphor for silence and it is the antithesis of praise. "Who can praise you from the grave?" In Psalm 88 again the grave is a metaphor for silence and ineptness. I also like to think of it as a prayer of Jesus. Verses 10-12 may present a set of rhetorical questions. "Can those in the grave declare your unfailing love"? Yes! Absolutely. The dark tomb of Christ "declared God's unfailing love" most eloquently and profoundly. (v 11) (Message edited by Kelleigh on December 13, 2011) | ||
| Free2dance Registered user Username: Free2dance Post Number: 525 Registered: 2-2010 |
Hec, The Bible often speaks of the spiritually dead as being dead, and those who belong to God (His saints) as being alive. Read it again in that context and spend time thinking about the literal meaning of the last text in the passage. The first portion of the Psalm is talking about pegans and godless people. They are the "Dead". 1 Not to us, O LORD, not to us, but to your name give glory, for the sake of your steadfast love and your faithfulness! 2Why should the nations say, "Where is their God?" 3 Our God is in the heavens; he does all that he pleases. 4 Their idols are silver and gold, the work of human hands. 5They have mouths, but do not speak; eyes, but do not see. 6They have ears, but do not hear; noses, but do not smell. 7They have hands, but do not feel; feet, but do not walk; and they do not make a sound in their throat. 8 Those who make them become like them; so do all who trust in them. 9O Israel, trust in the LORD! He is their help and their shield. 10O house of Aaron, trust in the LORD! He is their help and their shield. 11You who fear the LORD, trust in the LORD! He is their help and their shield. 12The LORD has remembered us; he will bless us; he will bless the house of Israel; he will bless the house of Aaron; 13he will bless those who fear the LORD, both the small and the great. 14May the LORD give you increase, you and your children! 15May you be blessed by the LORD, who made heaven and earth! 16The heavens are the LORD’s heavens, but the earth he has given to the children of man. 17 The dead do not praise the LORD, nor do any who go down into silence. 18But we will bless the LORD from this time forth and forevermore. Praise the LORD! I think verse 18 deals with the problem. But WE (God's people) will bless the Lord from this time forth and forevermore (without end). The Hebrew word used here is "`ad" which can mean, "up until" since physical death is inevitable, then clearly something survives that praises God between physical death and ressurection. Look at Psalm 116:15, the very next psalm: "Precious in the sight of the LORD is the death of his saints." This doesn't say, precious in the sight of the LORD is the ressurection bodies of the saints. It says their *death*. Our God is not one who takes pleasure in watching us suffer. When saints die, they go to be with Jesus. They have to, how else would Jesus return to earth *with* the saints? "...so that he may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all his saints." 1 Thes 3:13 Thats how I see it anyway. I loved reading this the first time I saw it. Hope this helps. Nikki | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 1870 Registered: 3-2009 |
I can see Psalm 115 that way. How about Psalm 88? Hec | ||
| Free2dance Registered user Username: Free2dance Post Number: 527 Registered: 2-2010 |
I see Psalm 88 the same way. The dead who are cut off and remembered no more, I believe, are those who do not belong to Salvation. I don't know if David knew or understood that, it's just how I read it with the rest of scriptures teachings in view. Furthermore, David asks questions of life after death and the Lords intentions. He isn't making a statement about what is truth, he is asking about it. I'm no scholar, but that is how I see it. There is FAR too much in scripture that teaches life after physical death for me to see it any other way.  | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 1871 Registered: 3-2009 |
Thank you to those who answered. I do wish that some others could give their opinions. I'm not quite sure that SDA will accept these metaphors explanations. An if so, they would need some more evidence than just my saying it. Hec | ||
| Kelleigh Registered user Username: Kelleigh Post Number: 319 Registered: 7-2011 |
Hec, I agree with you. Many SDAs probably wouldn't accept the metaphors explanation. We modern readers are out of touch with the way people of the Bible era thought and communicated. We often approach Scripture with little or no regard for the context in which Scripture was written and understood in Bible times. People who lived during the Bible era were familiar with, and accustomed to, interpreting figures of speech in the written word. So much more than than we are today. Ancient literature was often highly metaphorical. The Bible itself is replete with beautiful, rich language and literary devices, as well as plain speaking. Jesus Himself taught in parables. Today the emphasis of our modern education is on science, technology and economics. The study of literature and poetry is not emphasised. When we approach the Bible today is it any wonder that we naturally apply a literal, scientific, concrete framework to the Scriptures because 'that's what we know'. The ancients were different. They often wrote in poetry. Even English literature was written in a poetic form until a few hundred years ago. Phil menitoned Beowulf, an epic poem typical of early English literature. 'The Cantebury Tales' and Milton's 'Paradise Lost' are other familiar examples. From about the 1700s (?) onward, writing began to change (the 'novel' was born for example; as ideas in science and technology developed so did the requirement for a more literal and concrete way of communicating information etc). Today, when we read early English literature, we need some help identifying and interpreting figures of speech. Our own language and expression has changed that much! Consider the Scriptures. They are centuries older, originally written foreign ancient languages, in the context of ancient culture. We come along and try to apply modern thinking. We trip over metaphors and interpet them concretely. "Who will praise you from the grave" is interpreted 'people must be unconscious after death' etc. Unfortunately a favourite tool of skeptics is to defame the Bible based on a ‘plain sense’ reading of figurative speech. They love to point out confusing and contradictory passages as ‘proof’ that the Bible is unreliable and cannot be trusted. Do we Christians sometimes fall into a similar way of thinking? Defaming others who settle on a 'less literal’ interpretation of some Bible teachings? | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 7516 Registered: 9-2006  |
Huh..you should have seen how modern critics tore me limb from limb over the story I wrote titled 'The Year Of Our Discontent', the story was written in the style Mark Twain. That isn't so long ago, but when you dare adapt that in a story nowadays the critics do not even understand the language. One critic said, "Well, this must have been before the internet." Well duhh. Good grief I think common sense has up and fled for high country. River | ||
| Kelleigh Registered user Username: Kelleigh Post Number: 328 Registered: 7-2011 |
Funny how the English lanugage is constantly evolving. Mark Twain is so out of it dude. :-) A few nights ago we were having a spirited conversation about 'guys and their cars'. A senior lady related an experience from her teen years, "You should have seen him in his new chevy! Chundering up and down the street!" Of course we younger ones split our sides laughing! And there's the another thing. Humor has changed. Fancy finding the thought of someone vomiting as funny! Anyway, for anyone born after 1950 in Australia 'chundering' used to mean driving a vehicle fast or something. | ||
| Kelleigh Registered user Username: Kelleigh Post Number: 330 Registered: 7-2011 |
(funny how I cant spel) | ||
| Thegoldenway Registered user Username: Thegoldenway Post Number: 215 Registered: 5-2011 |
One of the things I have learned in my bible study on death is that in the bible death has to do with separation. What causes our bodies to die is when our spirits separate from our physical bodies. It's the same with being dead to God. Anyone who isn't born again is dead to God. Being dead to God is being separated from Him in spirit. An unbelievers spirit is separated from Him. As Jesus was dying He said 'Father into Your hands I commit My spirit.' Death is separation. That is what I am seeing so far. lynn |
