| Author | Message | ||
| Indy4now Registered user Username: Indy4now Post Number: 1074 Registered: 2-2008  |
I CRINGED everytime I hear an adventist say, "you know... James says that faith without works is dead." Besides this verse in James, and the other in John about "if you love me, you will keep my commandments", I've seen these taken out of context a lot by adventists. I cringe everytime I'm in a discussion and an adventist pulls out his "if you love me, you'll keep my commandment" card and trumps all discussion. It doesn't matter if you ask them to go back and read John 13-15... the "commandments" are the 10C's. sigh. Same with James 2:26, "... so also faith without works is dead." I cringe to hear those words too... since to an adventist, it's about keeping the 10C's. I've just finished reading a book called "Faith Crisis" by Ron Dunn. On p. 167, he discusses this passage in James. I loved how he articulated his points. So I want to share this with you.
Here are 2 points he brought up: 1) The issue that when James uses the word "works", he is not referring to "10C's". Although I wasn't happy that the author referred to the Law that Paul wrote about was "Jewish ceremonial law". I don't believe that there is a separation of moral/ceremonial in the Mosaic covenant... it's all one document. 2)The author brought up the difference between Paul's "justification" which was before God and James "justification" which was before men. I thought that was a valid point. If you have any thoughts about James and this passage, I would like to read them. post! vivian | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 13179 Registered: 12-2003  |
Vivian, the context of the book of James has helped me tremendously. It is arguably the earliest book of the New Testament, possibly pre-dating Paul's book of Galatians. He wrote to the scattered Jewish believers who had fled Jerusalem because of Nero's persecution of Jews (and of Christians), and also to those who had been in Jerusalem during Pentecost a few years earlier and had returned to their homes as Christians—after leaving as orthodox Jews. The only Scripture they had was the OT, and Paul had not yet written his explanation of the New Covenant which had been God's grace to him (Eph 3:9). First, James identifies the "royal law of Scripture" as something OTHER than the 10 C's--he uses the text from Lev. 19:18: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself" (see v. 2:8). Then he goes on to make the point that any offense against a brother, such as showing partiality, qualifies (according to their Jewish framework) as breaking the law. James's point is that if they mistreat one another, they are guilty of breaking the law—all of it. Even if they're punctilious about keeping the "moral laws", they are guilty if they offend each other. So James concludes his exhortation by saying, in verse 12-13, "So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty. For judgment will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment." The law of liberty is NOT the 10 C's...nor the Mosaic law. The law of liberty is the law of Christ, the gospel and the new birth that gives one a new heart. It is in this context that we have to read James 2:26. Faith is the framework of belief in Christ which results in the new birth. If we have been born again, we will do the work of God because the Holy Spirit motivates us. This is NOT a verse advocating proving one is righteous by good works. The context is realizing that a Christian—nor a good Jew—can mistreat a brother and be innocent. Christians are to live by the law of liberty and do the work of the Spirit, listening to Him. Then he will produce the works of God. Colleen | ||
| Lori Registered user Username: Lori Post Number: 122 Registered: 11-1999 |
The point of confusion begins with the object of ones faith. The object of your faith determines what you see as valuable production. In turn, the "works" we produce actually reveal the object of our faith!!! Christ is the working object of Faith!! Even the "works" we produce are IN Christ and therefore the merit of our works belongs to the Him as well. It is all about Christ!!! | ||
| Indy4now Registered user Username: Indy4now Post Number: 1075 Registered: 2-2008 |
sorry... distracted by life! Haven't been back in a while. Lori, I completely agree with you. James starts his book in verses 1:2-4 saying to "Consider it all joy, my brethren, when you encounter various trials, knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance. And let endurance have its perfect result, so that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing." He knew these people would be persecuted... probably because their "works" revealed Who they were following to other people. In my experience, my faith continues to grow because my relationship and knowledge of God continues to grow. The more I know about Him through His word and the more that I experience His faithfulness the stronger my faith becomes. So through the "various trials" that God has allowed to occur in my life, those trials have made me grow in my relationship with God... they have produced endurance (don't know how strong my endurance is... ) and are perfecting my faith in God. I agree with you Colleen when you wrote,"This is NOT a verse advocating proving one is righteous by good works." Works doesn't justify you before God... works reveal to what or whom the object of your faith is. It is important to identify that the works that James is talking about is not about keeping the Law... but about the everyday good works of Christians. So I wonder... and maybe Colleen you might know this answer. If a Jewish person went to Pentecost and came back Christian, what was the defining act that others would see that they were Christ followers? vivian | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 7505 Registered: 9-2006  |
Quote: I CRINGED everytime I hear an adventist say, "you know... James says that faith without works is dead." Besides this verse in James, and the other in John about "if you love me, you will keep my commandments" Ok, we know what a dead faith is, faith without works is dead. The question I asked is, what is a living faith, if there is a dead faith, what is a living faith? To me that answer is, a living faith is a living hope that has it foundation in a living savior. To me it is not necessarily the works we do, but who we are 24/7. We are an ongoing work in Christ Jesus. In sharp contrast is the Adventist way of life which produces the exact opposite, it produces works without hope (assurance). On the other hand those who have that living hope has deep assurance even in times of great distress. Oh grave, where is your victory, oh death, where is your sting? I would imagine a Jewish person who went to Pentecost and came away a Christian would come away declaring that Jesus is Lord.  | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 1390 Registered: 7-2004  |
Vivian, I can only speculate about defining acts, but "preach the Gospel" comes immediately to mind. Living the unmerited grace you believe in would be another (which would preclude favoritism). | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 13220 Registered: 12-2003 |
I agree with Rick's answer. I believe those born-again Jews would be unable to be silent about Jesus. Think about those of us who suddenly know Him, and how awkward it is around entrenched Adventists when we talk about Jesus. It's totally uncomfortable! I think the same would have been true for those first Christians. And then, they'd be able to love their still-observant-Jewish loved ones for God instead of for their own sakes...and that reality would be completely mystifying! Colleen | ||
| Indy4now Registered user Username: Indy4now Post Number: 1076 Registered: 2-2008 |
duh... of course preaching the gospel and declaring Jesus is Lord would be the defining act. I was kinda hoping for "they gave up the sabbath"! ha! After all... that was my defining act! Colleen you brought up a very interesting thought about how these new Christians would be able to love their "still-observant-Jewish" loved ones which would be "completely mystifying!" I can't help but think that their journey out of Judiasm into Christian is somewhat like the emotions and experiences formers have gone through. vivian | ||
| Indy4now Registered user Username: Indy4now Post Number: 1077 Registered: 2-2008 |
p.s. when I wrote "duh..." I meant "duh" on my part. Hadn't thought of those things. Hope no one took that the wrong way! | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 13228 Registered: 12-2003 |
Hey, Vivian...I understood! Colleen |
