| Author | Message | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 1327 Registered: 7-2004  |
Jim, Why did you walk away from SDAism in the first place? I don't mean tht sarcastically, I am truly trying to understand and offer whatever support I might be to provide. But I often feel like I am missing something when I get involved in threads with you. I assume that fault is mine, so I am trying to ask a few things to perhaps fill in the blanks. | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1414 Registered: 5-2007 |
Ric, I left because of recurring burnout from legalism. From the friction with my family, my then wife, and my kids. At first, I kept a good level of discipline and went way out of my way to keep Sabbath as a family. But as the years went by, the resentments only increased and it seemed after a point. Sabbath was a day to survive more than any thing. Having moved to a small town according to EGW advice, we discovered it was rather difficult to have SDA friends nearby. Every event, every get together was a distant comute. This only added to the resentments and boredoms. After awhile, I was the only one going to church. My wife (now my x) went back to Catholic church for awhile, now who knows?, My kids all left the SDA as well. The more I tried to make it work, the more it did not. Then there was my own struggle. Self imposed rules, plus all the legalism rules about keeping Sabbath holy. Through the years I stopped going a couple times, but would restart. Try again. Finally, I left and just gave up trying to make religion work. Which also explains why when people tell me just let go, quit struggling etc, falls flat. Because I have discovered, no religion is just as bad. I got tired of going to church alone. Discouragement set in when my marriage fell apart and I gave up going. Now, I am living on the husks of the past and there is precious little to salvage from that. When you look about you, take inventory, I am reminded of that passage, "come to your senses..." These past few years , I have been attempting to do just that, in a vacuum. I have things I have to deal with on top of the religon doctrine. Nevertheless, finding a firm foundation of peace with God is at the very top of my priority. Sometimes, it gets down to what I can handle at any one time. Familiarity has it's own comfort. I have resisted that since it is a cop out. The SDA logic and thinking often make more sense to me , even though I see it usually paints me into a corner. I guess I miss that. So much of what I read in the mainline beliefs is filled in conclusions. When I see this it runs me into rabbit holes trying to doscover how they come to these conclusions. I get wore out from it. The SDA more often use logic and it does not take me weeks to reach a point. However, the can be amazingly narrow minded and ignore passages too. That also is why I left. If I could understand the circular refernces to the law, maybe it would help. I do so much better with books that are well organized. I do not want to go back because I think it will work. Rather, I am cold, tired and lonely. I miss holy places. Quite places, reverence and peace. Now it's drums and stage lights. This was my church as a child. http://www.louisville-catholic.net/ I don't know any thing better that to turn back. Seek the old paths. Faith is walking on , even when it is dark. | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 2238 Registered: 7-2007 |
Jim; perhaps religion is your problem! You see, religion is simply man's efforts to get to God, couched in various creeds with varying levels and kinds of legalism; religions such as Islam, Roman Catholicism, Mormonism, J.Witness and Seventh-day Adventism. I was in a fairly comfortable place when I was an Adventist. I would "try" to keep the Sabbath, and ask God to forgive me whenever I messed up. In fact I just frequently asked God to forgive me and I figured that covered everything. I was careful to not wash my clothes on the Sabbath and careful to read the labels on cans. I was a fairly comfortable and happy Adventist. Then someone came along who spoke frequently to God about me, fasted and tried to talk to me about Adventism being a false religion. I was really shocked to find out that it was a false religion, but as soon as I did, I found I didn't have to take the Bible figuratively anymore! I could take it literally! I realized that the Bible was completely true - even verses such as Ephesians 2:8-9 "for by grace you [believers] have been saved." (Before that, I had to balance that with Ellen White's statement that people cannot say they're saved.) Anyway, I was VERY PLEASED to drop SDAism like a boxful of heavy rocks! Wow! The Bible is RADICAL good news! Jim; since you are confused because the Bible seems to you to contradict itself, take ONE verse that you can understand really really well and focus on that ONE verse for awhile. How about Acts 16:31, when after Paul and Silas were beaten and thrown into prison and then the earthquake happened and the keeper of the prison asked them, "what must I do to be saved?" The answer is: "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved." Acts 16:31. Or you could take Ephesians 2:8-9. Some verse that tells you VERY CLEARLY that salvation isn't up to anything you can do!!! I'm praying for you. | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 1329 Registered: 7-2004 |
Jim, What I am hearing is that you believe SDA teaching is wrong, but you miss having all the answers neatly aligned, so you consider going back to wrong answers because that is better than living with confusing questions. The other element I see in your statements is that temptation to return to SDAism is about solving your loneliness. Have you reached the conclusion yet that the SDA church teaching is dangerous, that it is teaching lies about God? Or is your concern simply that it is legalistic and arrogant at times? What have you concluded about Ellen White? Prophet? Un-educated, manipulated but well intentioned person? Lunatic? False prophet? If Ellen White is a false prophet, her visions and advice come from Satan. And what would this say about a church founded on those visions? | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1415 Registered: 5-2007 |
Asurprise, Ric, I spend hours, even in the middle of the night, trying to come up with yet another strategy, another way to make my way through this confusion. Yes, I have thought of focusing on what I do understand. But even there, it is a selctive process. Do I focus on what does not require anything from me? Or Focus on what I appear to understand that does require something from me.? Again, it revolves around how to remove (with biblical authority) the derailers. Those circular references to the law. In that I do have several that appear to release the law. I read some of them this morning. Something that I read this morning as well was in a book by Pastor Joseph Prince. He said , that the example of Laodecien sp , in Rev was an analogy that says, when we mix the law (cold) with Grace (hot) , we become luke warm. Because it prevents us from coming to an end of ourselves. This is why God says, Hot or cold is better. He said that when we mix the two, it causes confusion. BINGO! I can attest to that! This then IS the core of the struggle. Is the confusion because I am trying to disengage the law and feeling guilty if I do, or failing to understand how we are to in fact mix them "establish the law" through Spiritual means. I discover so far, that my self discipline methods to keep a law has not changed my heart in respect to those laws. I still see Sabbath as a huge burden and guilt trip load, I still have the same sin struggles. So whatever I am doing (so far) is not very effective. Though , I do sense and realize that God does give me a measure of grace despite my fumblings and confusion. There are things in my heart that I do believe are from God. A smoldering wick He will not snuff out. The attraction of SDA, yes Ric, I suppose part of it is the logic lure. I am somewhat given to a form of OCD. I like things in a row, sorted , and in order. (I do not sort my M&Ms, but I thought about it) That has it's advantages, but in life, things are not usually that orderly. Here is where I mirror SDA culture. Do not hunt and kill for pleasure. Try to eat sensibly and avoid extremes. Competition against others creates victims. Reverence for the House of Worship. Here is where I am mixed about the SDA: Their interpretation of Law and Grace. They hold onto law in priority over grace. They do not see the law as set aside in scripture and I am confused about that. They teach very similar to Paul's writings, they set you free in one paragraph then take it back in the next, more circles. Circles represent either a closed wall of protection, a completion. Or it represents a rut, stagnation and no forward progress. A circle can become a prison, an expression of confusion, a repitition ad nauseum. Circle teachings cause OCD as it were. What I do not like about SDA. Leeeeegaaallliiiissssmmmmm. Heavy reliance upon the Old testament system, its laws and rules. They ignore a lot of valid questions. The Federal System they function under. Top heavy, wasteful , bureaucratic. Lack of resource at the local level. The offcial stand on Abortion is a HUGE issue. Tolerance of SDA hospitals becoming abortion mills. Apparent errors in EGW, I am mixed about that. Some charges have merit, others are more of a gothcha nature. I stopped reading her writings ten years ago. Here is where I am at, I recongnize that I have to get out of this loop I am stuck in. I am needing to stop this yes no yes no cycle that happens no matter which way I turn to. I have considered that I should listen to the SDA theology explainations (without EGW) and see if their teachings hold a balanced truth. However there is that "Mixing" alert. Does balance, or along side actually mean mixing law and grace and thus creating confusion? It seems to me that most churches do this. This in turn causes me to re-examine the SDA position. Here is a loop example. If we live by Grace, not under the law, how do we know what sin is? Paul says by the law is the knowledge of sin. The SDA say, ok that is the 10C, eg Paul mentions coveting. Then they say, the set includes Sabbath. Thus , we have looped back to Sabbath keeping even if we are attempting to do so by grace. (as in saying, we will never keep it perfectly, but we will keep in in spirit). But what happens in practice, (with all churches) , we mix in rules and a new religion is born. Thus , I wonder hwo is it I am to live, what is my point of reference? If it is no longer the law, but ONLY the Spirit, then how do I know it when I see it? I get lost right there. One part of me wants to simply say, through the heart of love in all things. There would no longer be a mandate for any other rule keeping. Our motive to meet in church is out of love, not out of a mandate. Can we do that? Is that biblical? I need to know what I am about so that I can protect my mind within the group or whatever church I attend. Fitting in requires knowing where to take a stand and what to let be. What to tolerate and what to ignore. It is about maintaining peace even in the midst of others confusions and over zealous teachings. I feel so beaten down from trying to find truth, that it makes me withdraw. I think it is enough, if I can go some place where I can sit quitely with God. Stop thinking, and just be. Where is that safe place? The SDA was the last place I came close to that. I would sit there and tune out half of what I was hearing. There have been three places in my life that I felt there was reverence in the church. The Catholic Church, The SDA and when I went to the Lutheran Church early this year. In all three places, I was just there, in the moment, not thinking, not researching. I was in a place of worship. maybe it is about comfort. Is that wrong? Jim | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1416 Registered: 5-2007 |
I have been accused of not making a decision by more than one person. I recongnize that. What people fail to see is that when I do something without conviction, I also do it without much hope or expectation and often with a sense of guilt. I am unable to engage. When I go out of experimentation, I set myself up for a boatload of processing new information. I just want to stop all this. This is why I drop out. I am exhausted. When I get up on Sat or Sun. Another decision has to be made. Another week of struggling has gone by. What is the point? I get discouraged and tell myself, not yet, study more, pray more. I try to work myself up to go to a church all week. I am down to looking for glimmers of hope. Anything to say, see that spec of light? Follow that. | ||
| Jackob Registered user Username: Jackob Post Number: 638 Registered: 7-2005 |
Jim For your encouragement, I think your second thoughts about adventism are one manifestation of a problem with which we have struggled, albeit in different forms. The legalists systems provide a kind of order and certainty that living by faith cannot reproduce, and the old paths seem more familiar and attractive that living dangerously, by faith alone. In a legalist system grace is present, but it always linked with what the sinners do. If they obey enough, if they do whatever they can with what they have, God will bless them, will give grace, forgive their shortcomings and accept them. In this way, by a combination of God's grace and human effort, the believer is assured that he is approved by God, that God looks favorably over him. He did all He can, God was merciful and accepted even his less than perfect performance and granted him grace. But when such a believer decides to rest assured in Jesus Christ's perfect work alone, he goes in a strange land where he suddenly feels naked. He's thrown in an unknown territory where all he has as a cover against God's wrath is a promise, not connected with anything he did, does, or will ever do. He's having to trust in an invisible righteousness, in something that he cannot prove at all, in something that's not rooted or connected with his attempts to keep the rules. More than this, it's contrary to basic common sense. Common sense tells us, "If you do what is right, you'll be approved". The message of the gospel is "Even if you don't do what is right, you'll be approved". The stumbling block is that it seems to encourage sin, and it's like calling good evil and evil good. That's why law makes more sense than grace. Law fits with our intuition. Grace goes contrary to intuition. In his Dialogue with Trypho the Jew Justin Martin defends Christianity against the attacks it received not only from the Jews, but from the pagan Roman society. Very interesting is Trypo's reply that highlights the same dilemma regarding Christianity:
That's against our intuition. It's a message that only by supernatural intervention can be believed. It takes all the guts to be trusted because, in some sense, your only hope is in something invisible put into your account, and you have only God's naked promise for it. Gabriel | ||
| Cloudwatcher Registered user Username: Cloudwatcher Post Number: 602 Registered: 5-2009  |
Jim, Take a risk. | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1417 Registered: 5-2007 |
Jakob, I am open to what you are saying. I am trying to discover if it is just as you say. Thank You. Cloudwatcher, I hear you.  Jim | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 2240 Registered: 7-2007 |
Jim; It sounds as though you're turning to yourself and your wisdom, instead of to Jesus. You said: "Do I focus on what does not require anything from me? Or Focus on what I appear to understand that does require something from me.?" Notice the difference between the two sentences. "what does not require anything from me" and "what I APPEAR to understand that does require something from me." Even by your own words here, you are admitting that there are parts of the Bible that are PLAIN in saying that there's nothing you can do to earn salvation; that it's a free gift. Contrast that with what you are saying concerning the parts that "APPEAR" to tell you that you have to "do something" to earn/maintain it. In addition, to describe the second part of your statement concerning the APPEARANCE of having to earn/maintain salvation; you use words like confusion, circling and derailing. My suggestion was that you focus on one of those verses that are clear that salvation doesn't require anything. Guilt comes from the devil. The Holy Spirit uses conviction not guilt. Establish the law means that the law is still in effect for non-believers. I'm glad you've discovered that your efforts to "keep" the law avail nothing. I hope you know that God doesn't reward effort. Your efforts make no difference to a perfect, holy God. Isaiah 64:6 says "all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment." Are you trying to offer up your righteous deeds to God? Remember the parable in Matthew 22 about the king who invited people to his wedding banquet? Both bad and good people were invited, but what counted to the king? Only if the person had on a wedding garment. That wedding garment isn't made up partly of your righteousness and partly of Christ's righteousness, Jim. That garment is ALL Christ's righteousness. It's insulting to God to think YOU can do anything to earn it - partly or fully! The Old Covenant commandments are only there to condemn the unbelievers. Once you've gotten saved, you'll have the Holy Spirit within to convict you when you do wrong. Remember, when a person gets saved, their continued salvation isn't dependent upon keeping/breaking laws. Remember, a person's sins; past, present and future are completely forgiven. You're worried that if you mess up, you'll be lost - kicked out of the family; but that isn't Biblical. Ephesians 2:8-9 couldn't tell the believers; "for by grace you HAVE BEEN saved" if the believers could be lost. And those believers weren't any better than you are, Jim. | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 2241 Registered: 7-2007 |
Did you read Handmaiden's post four or five times? (Itching ears looking for a church") I didn't ask you to give you a "chore" to do, but because she made it so clear, and I think you would get it if you did! Did you read how she got saved? Here's what she said: Quote: For me it took only two verses to leave the rules and regulations of religion and cling to Jesus in relationship and liberty. This is the first one: if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. Romans 10:9 I read that verse for the first time in my catholic bible, when I was trying to prove the catholic church was right and this verse just jumped off the page and hit me between the eyes .... I read it again and again and again then said "where is the rest of the list"??? "Where are alllllll the things the catholic church says i must DO to be saved"???? No list ...just believe and confess and be saved. The second verse that hit me confirmed the first: Then they said to him, “What must we do, to be doing the works of God?” Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.” John 6:28-29 Jim; God has used Handmaiden to rescue several SDAs, including myself, out of that cult!!! | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 13132 Registered: 12-2003  |
Gabriel, that was an excellent post. Thank you. Colleen | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1418 Registered: 5-2007 |
I guess I need a pair of scissors for my Bible. | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 1334 Registered: 7-2004 |
No scissors needed, just a removal of the SDA tinted glasses that cause you to struggle with clear context. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 13133 Registered: 12-2003 |
Yes. Jim, what Gabriel said about learning to let go of the tangible law in favor of the intangible Jesus is exactly right on. Your worldview will shift...and Scripture will become more and more clear. Colleen | ||
| Rossbondreturns Registered user Username: Rossbondreturns Post Number: 297 Registered: 10-2009  |
Jim as a SDA PK I had the word ingrained into me through the Adventist viewpoint. If there is anyone who should have taken scissors to the Bible it's me. Yet I found I didn't have to, once I switched from the SDA filter to the filter of God the Holy Spirit and Him alone. Things began to make sense. It is only when I finally shattered my Adventist glasses that I realized that I needed the full contact lenses of the Holy Spirit. If you can't trust the Holy Spirit to illuminate the word of God- and trust the Holy Spirit alone- then you will always keep putting on you Adventist glasses whether or not you realize it. This might sound funny if you've never worn glasses but I think it drives the point home. When I got laser eye surgery it took me TWO MONTHS to stop "taking off my glasses" and putting them on the nightstand. Finally I retrained myself to stop doing that. When you are Born Again you are filled with the Holy Spirit and sealed for Heaven period. However you can thwart growth as a Christian by stubbornly holding onto the same old glasses you've worn your whole life (or however long it's been)- it's not until you take off those glasses and break them do you realize that you can see clearly without them. Ross | ||
| Cortney Registered user Username: Cortney Post Number: 290 Registered: 8-2006 |
Jim, maybe you would be comfortable in a Lutheran Church? That's where I am now, not a lot of pomp and circumstance, grace-based indeed, and a beautiful, reverent worship service. | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1419 Registered: 5-2007 |
Ross what is SDA "PK" ? About SDA filters, I think you mean , legalism, works, grace plus works, lists etc.. Possibly to include the EGW translation as well. I do my best to not filter that way. Which is where most of the dissonance began. But , I wonder , exactly what is meant by the Holy Spirit, in this sense. I observe two facts. Every church division claims some special insight and they pronouce it confirmed by their belief it comes through The Holy Spirit. 2nd, I have but one mind, it is the same mind that processes information from the Bible, from the SDA perspective and from The Mainline view. Honestly, the forum has armed me with a whole lot more arguments against the SDA theology on Law than I ever saw in the past. I still fall short in putting it to rest. There are passages that still cause me to hold back from concluding that the law is canceled for Christians. 1 John 3:4 says: “Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law; for sin is the transgression of the law.” I have a book from the forum called Sabbatarian Concordance & Commentary. I wish I could find more books like it , focused on law and grace. Confusion happens when two sets of instructions are given at the same time from the same source. Since the Bible does not contradict itself. Then my rightly dividing the word is evidently in question. Asurprise, I use the word "appear" to state imply that I could be wring, though this is how I am reading it. What I am saying is that there are parts in the Bible that plainly say Grace plus behaviour (works, fruits, change, law). From what I can tell, not only is there no license, there is no free pass to ignore sin at all, nor to ignore the law. In the effort to magnify grace, to make it above all, complete unto itself, it "appears" to me that we are setting aside the commandments of God. If I am to accept Grace as the only and single concept, and that it cancels the 10C for Christians. I have to understand how to function in the new system, of which prsently I am not even sure is a valid comprehension by mainliners, or SDA. Who has it right? I don't know ! I already know I cannot figure this out. That leaves me with sensing God's leading and more trial and error. Courtney, The Lutheran church is one of the few that I have been more drawn to. | ||
| Christo Registered user Username: Christo Post Number: 286 Registered: 2-2008 |
Hi jim, I have heard it stated by health care professionals in the field of Psychology that spiritual abuse is the most destructive type of abuse there is. Even topping drug, alcohol, physical or sexual abuse in terms of what it takes to overcome it's obstacles to peace. The reason for this is that the only relief for all of these maladies is submitting all your cares to God. Those who have been spiritually abused, which includes almost all on this forum, have been taught characteristics of God, that are more in accordance with dysfunctional parents, rather than a God that is loving and merciful. Which makes one who is involved in spiritual abuse , or having been involved in spiritual abuse, reluctant to submit ones life to God, out of fear of mistreatment. God will never mistreat you, and always has your best interest in mind. I found a verse in Genesis that really touched me the other day, but first I wanted to share some testimonies about Abraham. Romans 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Galatians 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. James 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Now what did Abraham believe? He believed God! What did God tell him? God not being a respecter of persons, he told Abraham the same thing he tells us. I am going to leave you with one of the things God says, and God wants you to believe. Genesis 15:1 After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward. Be Rewarded, Chris | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1420 Registered: 5-2007 |
Chris, I talk to God, I knwo He knows I am one mixed up bewildered person. I know how to be a good legalist, even how to be "good" in the general sense. What I want is to belong, to have a place and a purpose, to care for and be cared about. To have peace with God in that what I am doing is not more deception or going the wrong way. If God is waiting on me, I do not know what it is except to resort to my own trying to be good , trying to be better. If I am waitig on God. I do not know if it no forever. Or just for now. Doing things at random seems senseless to me. Trusting God, believing God. I try to do that everyday. I get lost in the silence, and in the details of searching for answers. Another weekend is upon me. |
