| Author | Message | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1400 Registered: 5-2007 |
Most of you know my situation. Confused and perplexed. Stuck outside of fellowship for really most of ten years. Before you suggest strategys. Understand , I pray, frequently, I listen to sermons on radio , Tv, web, I read, a lot of Christian material. I read my Bible. So, if I were to estimate based upon that, I probably do those 'Things' more so than the average born again saved church attending Christian. 'Going through the motions as it were', 'learning , but never coming to a knowledge of the truth' So, don't bother with more 'are you saved' beatings, it does not guide me anywwhere but into more discouragement and trying even harder to "believe". My hope, belief and trust is that I am saved, even if I am stranded. My hope, is not in myself. It is in Christ and His mercy, His Love. Now the question that continously hangs on my back is this. Where do I find a place to fellowship and how to I interact and fit in when as yet, I have not been able to find a way to set aside or somehow come to a way to allow for inconsistancies in doctrine. Including the ones I have not even been able to work through. For example: Still struggling with the scope of Law and Grace. NC vs OC. How are they defined? What exactly are or what is meant by 'God will write His laws upon our hearts'? Scripture in the NT says all Scripture is profitable for ......... Since NT did not yet exist, I assume He meant OT. And by default, we could assume, the letter thsi statement was written in, and by extension, all Apostolic writings. The greater point was , he referred back to the OT. OK , then, after I run the OT OC through the sifter, what is left in the OT I should allow in my guidance? Or is it safer to stay out of there all together? Then you have most churches teaching a form of the 10C and of course tithe. All of which are part of the OC system. This in turn circles me back to ok then, the OT must have continuing relevance, maybe even the law??? I read in circles and the churches teaches in circles. What about hell. I see readings that support both ways. Eternal and anihlation. I have yet to be able to come to terms with that. Just cannot imagine our God being an 'ongoing' eternal punishing God. It contradicts. Then there is abortion. Churches that practically participate in it by their passive leave the decision to the mother stance. Mind you, I am all for forgiveness and restoration for any sin. But to be neutral as it were on the essential question is to be a part of it. It sends the message to my mind that the elders and the body of that church condone murder in the final bottom line. This makes everything else they teach or uphold is an outright contradiction of the heart of love they claim to have. On what principal then? It is ok to terminate an innocent life because of a mistake, sin or violence of another? Is it then ok to steal from my neighbor to correct the loss I suffered through a theft by someone else? So then , all these things create a conflict. What church to a join? Under whose church authority do I subject myself to when I cannot even reach a consensus on their base theology. Or in the latter, abortion stance. How do I approach it at all? I understand there is no perfect church. Churches and people are both contradictions in themselves. We are all sinners and fall short. I have tried to come up with a set of attitudes that would allow me to cope with and negotiate a fellowship in an unknown church as yet. No perfect church. No perfect teachings. No whole accurate consensus on doctrine. Don't talk. Don't ask questions? Overlook or ignore what does not fit. See what is good and focus only on that. Don't fret. Don't accuse, rather seek to excuse. Trust In God. Just be there. I don't have to decide on every theological ball tossed my way. So I have these concepts as a means to at least participate on some level. Then I go to my own basic doctrine as I understand it. Unsettled and mixed up . I look at how I am wired and my dispositions and sensibilities and look for a place similar. This draws me to SDA. Conflict upon conflict, longing upon longing. Where other that SDA do I find a turning away from Hunting for sport, obsession with competition, endless preoccupation with ball games and being wrapped up in materialism and seeking after wealth. I have discovered since I have no interest in most of that stuff, I do not fit in with those groups and they consider me strange. So unless I can get into chasing a ball, gutting a deer, or straddling a Harley, or buying the latest toy, I am strange. How do you sense love? Thsi past week , a pastor stopped at where I work and was bragging about his teen daughter killing her first deer. How he coached her, how he overcame her resistance, how that deer 'needed' to be killed, because it stood there so long waiting to be killed. It made my stomach turn. This is love? Sigh.... | ||
| Butterfly_poette Registered user Username: Butterfly_poette Post Number: 93 Registered: 5-2011 |
I have thought of going to a non-denominational church. I just don't feel I want to have much dogma anymore. I'm tired of all the restrictions of Adventism. | ||
| Butterfly_poette Registered user Username: Butterfly_poette Post Number: 94 Registered: 5-2011 |
When people are raised Adventist, they are raised not to do many things that are popular in the culture around them. The problem is that Adventists find it hard to relate to the people around them. I do wonder how many people stay in Adventism just because that's where they feel comfortable. I have found some Adventists that are avid sports fans and shopaholics, yet we don't seem to talk about those things when Adventists are together. It's like it "doesn't exist" among SDAs. If your family isn't into those things, then it's easy to not be involved. I know it must be hard when hunting, sports, and competition isn't your thing, and all the men in the area go out and do that. You'd rather do something else. Men need their friends and it's hard to get close friends when you don't do what most of the other people do. As for materialism, I really do wish that more Christians of all denominations would turn more away from it. Materialism is from the Devil. All the rich nations of the globe are so caught up in it. There is more to life than buying stuff. I do wish that less people spent so much of their free time shopping. There are better things to do than spend time in stores and malls. As for the pastor who got his teen daughter into hunting--I don't know why he just HAD to push her into killing a deer. why why why Hunting is something that is very popular in some areas. People see hunting as part of life, and that's what people do. I don't have any wish to get into hunting. There is a niche group in my area (northeast Connecticut) who does hunting. Killing animals is nasty, yet the population MUST be kept down. My mother has hit a few deer. One was killed instantly, and my mother was slammed in the back by another car. Nobody hurt seriously. The second time the deer broke a leg and had to get shot by the police. I don't like hunting, yet there can't be so many deer running around to get hit by cars. Adventism does make people so different from everyone else: no dancing, no coffee, no activities on Sabbath, no jewelry, no makeup for some, no hunting, no fishing.... If it makes you feel any better I didn't even know the Red Sox won the World Series in 2007 until a week later.  | ||
| Free2dance Registered user Username: Free2dance Post Number: 512 Registered: 2-2010 |
I don't have time to say much, Jim. However, I would like to pose a question to you. As an Adventist, I saw clique after clique. People only wanted to be around people who were just like them and they spent an awful lot of time talking about people who were into things they were not. They sized up their motives, they expressed why God wouldn't approve of the way everyone else did things and they sat in their pride over their more refined habits. So...where is the love in that? My husband and I are Christians. We attend a church and are a part of a couple different fellowships. We are not sports fans, hunters, bikers, or shopaholics (We hate shopping and live in a humble home). Be careful about the broad brush—it can rob you of beautiful fellowship. Pray about it and trust God to place you where He wants you. | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 2001 Registered: 6-2006  |
Hey Jim, It seems like you have your questions and answers all figured out for yourself. I realize you've been doing this church searching for 10 years and it seems like you've been asking the forum for that long too. Not sure if you're realizing this, but you seem to have a formula. You put it out there, we suggest churches, you explain why they don't work for you. I guess my question is, are you posting these threads simply to record your frustration? If so, that's cool. I'm sure many formers are stuggling to find a good church home. On the other hand, are you hoping for a different answer than you've been getting? It would be great to know exactly what you expect or want from the forum. Since you've made this particular post several times over the years, it seems like you're either not satisfied at all with what the forum (as a whole) suggests and/or you're hoping that someone new comes along with the solution. Being that we're all here in this together, I'm not sure you'll find answers from people or come up with a solution within yourself... I'm writing this with all due respect. You're frustrated, I get it. However, with as often as you've started "I need to find a home church" thread I'm getting the feeling that maybe the forum can't solve this one for you? | ||
| Free2dance Registered user Username: Free2dance Post Number: 513 Registered: 2-2010 |
One other thing, the title of your thread is concerning to me. Before I make any assumptions, what exactly do you mean by it? To be up front with you, it sounds like a chapter title out of pilgrim’s progress. Are you stating something about yourself? If you see yourself as one with itching ears not willing to put up with sound doctrine, then this is not something any of us here can help you with. It is between you and Jesus. "For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear." 2 Timothy 4:2-4 (Message edited by Free2dance on November 02, 2011) (Message edited by Free2dance on November 02, 2011) | ||
| Trans4mer Registered user Username: Trans4mer Post Number: 48 Registered: 9-2011  |
Jim02, I can relate to your dilemmas mentioned here. What worked for me, is simply plowing thru and studying for yourself. I think what you might be experiencing is 'withdrawal' of all the micro-analyzing of the Adinventist machine. I suggest staying away from that dogma and study material on this website. There's a TON of it here. It might turn out like getting used to a new diet, Ha! Charles | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1401 Registered: 5-2007 |
Hi Butterfly, Yes , I have been looking in my area for nondenom. It is a possibility. I brought up the hunting/sports as a cultural example that is part of the problem. I have visited several churches and that is what they do. It is not that I am fault finding, it is that I find it boring (chasing a ball) and I question the competition culture it teaches children. I have heard the arguments both ways. So, I get it, if that is what makes a person happy, fine. I refer mostly to the commonality factor. In approaching these churches, I try to be open to fitting in somewhere in the long term. Hunting, sports and motorcycles are not starters. About deer populations. Yep, no easy answers. Here again, pretty hard to make friends at church when you are not into the pattern of teh majority. In short, I was simply stating that for some of us formers, culture shock is a big obstacle. Being stigmatized or trying to fake your way in a group because of culture leaps has been a problem. Free2dance, Birds of a feather I guess. I have said before, I miss being normal. I used to be normal in that group. Not perfect, by no means. there were always conflicts and dissonance. I do recall many times we would go camping, talk around a camp fire, talk about end times. I know we felt we had THE truth and that we could hope for seeing Christ return without having to die. I do not recall putting other people down. Though we were paranoid about the Papal system and such as that. We did not have pride that I recall. Most of us felt like we were always struggling to do better, to be more genuine. We knew about filthy rags. We had a lot of EGW said this or that banter back and forth. I knew some of the types that were arrogant, judgemental. The controllers, the police types. I met some of the scary types too. But I chaulk these up to characters and I agree, one shoudl be careful about broad strokes of the stereo typing brush. Grace, No Grace I do not have the answers all figured out. I was sharing what I have been attempting to do so far. Trying to expand on coping attitudes to transition and engage. As I read postings , letters to the magazine, stories, it is about how different ones have made the transition. Oddly, I do not recall reading about the ones who get stuck halfway between worlds. Colleen sometimes makes a general reference to them, but I do not know who else is stuck. Many here have expressed that they were once where I was. That is why I have hung in as long as I have. I am cognizant of the fact that I may be harming others and not doing myself or anyone any good. Most of the questions I have asked cannot be answered anyway. Mainly, I have been exploring how people make peace with not knowing, with not being sure if they are doing the right thing or not. I have not been hoping so much for a different answer, but unlocking answers that I have not heard. Not for novelty sake. For conviction sake. Indeed , you may be right. The forum cannot solve the church question for me. In fact I have considered that I may never join another church at all. Perhaps I can be a friend of a church and not fret about membership. Free2dance, The itching ears title is that I ask myself and others, do we pick our churches based upon our convictions first above all, or more based upon where we find comforts? Since leaving SDA, having a sense of having been decieved or being in error, I have tried to get it right this time. Taking nothing as a package deal. When I tried to follow the teachings of the forum members as to why they left the SDA, I had to take inventory of what I believed as truth. Eventually I discovered so many things were not black and white. Churches, my supposed places of refuge where also mixed up. So I attempted to adjust to that reality as well. In all this , the itching ears echo has kept ringing. Was I running away from SDA or leaving it out of truth's sake? Being caught in the middle I have learned many things that maybe one day, may be a help to another, or maybe my own downfall. I left the SDA mostly because of repeated burnouts. That is a good case of itching ears. I wanted something better. A better hope, a better way, a lighter burden. In all this I was looking under every rock on the forum. Now I think , I am messing up peoples Spiritual yards. Silence on some questions is probably the better part of wisdom. Jim | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 13105 Registered: 12-2003  |
Jim, you're not harming anyone here. I think Leigh Anne's concern above is that you may be harming yourself by repetitive and circular questions. When people leave SDA because they find "issues" with the doctrine, they remain "Adventist" in their heads unless they commit themselves to Scripture and to acting on God's word and allowing the mundane and obvious words to define reality for them. Jim, it's like looking at those colored "pictures" that appear to be a conglomeration of small colored bits and shapes...and then, one day, you allow your eyes to go slightly out of focus, and suddenly there is a three-dimensional picture there that is hidden from the "normal" glance. That 3-D picture is what Scripture becomes when we see it from the perspective of being surrendered to Jesus. We're no longer looking at it with "normal" human eyes; we're allowing it to reveal what is unseen: spiritual truth that is ours when we are born again. We have to be willing to walk and to act when God opens the doors in front of us. We have to be willing to have Jesus be the substance and destination of every circumstance of life. We have to be willing to let Him be our "answer". He reveals what we cannot see when we surrender our minds to Him and let go of our need and our right to analyze things to death. I have to decide that I can't solve my dilemmas, but I can trust God--and let go of the "what ifs". Colleen | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1403 Registered: 5-2007 |
Good Morning Colleen, C: I have to decide that I can't solve my dilemmas, but I can trust God--and let go of the "what ifs". J: If what you say is true. Then it really does not matter what church I go to. C: spiritual truth that is ours when we are born again. J: Either I already have a Spiritual truth that am I trying to run away from (SDA) or I have not yet been able to incorporate the mainliner theology and thus, by opinion, I am unsaved and without truth. This is part of the circle trap. Either God is telling me turn back to the old paths, or I am somehow missing the truths that would lead me out of the confusion. Thus, itching ears , in my case, I am at a point in my life where my prayers have become, I am willing to go either way, but only with conviction, since without it , either way, it is meaningless if there is no faith behind it. My faith does however remain in Christ. In His mercy I at least embrace that truth. But where to from here? This I do not know. (Message edited by jim02 on November 03, 2011) | ||
| Free2dance Registered user Username: Free2dance Post Number: 514 Registered: 2-2010 |
Jim, you should come fellowship face to face at FAF 2012 with others who have sat on these questions. It might be good help. | ||
| Skeeter Registered user Username: Skeeter Post Number: 1690 Registered: 12-2007  |
JIm : "Either I already have a Spiritual truth that am I trying to run away from (SDA)..." Do you REALLY believe the SDA denomination has "spiritual TRUTH ??" If so, WHAT "truth" do they have ? While I believe the SDA churches I have attended/been member of, do have many good sincere people in membership... I now realize they are (as I was) sincerely mistaken. sincerely believing something does not mean it is correct theology. As long as they continue to hold on to a false prophet (among other problems,,, but I see EGW as the biggest since the other problems mostly stem from trying to downgrade or dismiss much in the Bible in order to hold up Ellens writings) they cannot teach TRUTH because even those churches that greatly minimize Ellens writings still have her embedded throughout the Sabbath school "lessons" and the sermons. Just because some pastors may not name her by name does not mean they are not using her teachings. IMO one of the first things they should do is toss all those lesson quarterlies in the dumpster along with their "clear word" and begin using the BIBLE ONLY Jim: "..or I have not yet been able to incorporate the mainliner theology and thus, by opinion, I am unsaved and without truth." Jim, I have no doubt that you are "saved". You have stated many times that you are in constant communication with Christ. You have an ongoing relationship with Him and that is the most important thing. As far as the "without truth" part.. NO ONE has ALL "truth" we are all in various stages of learning, and we do not all learn exactly the same things in the same ways or for the same purpose. Jim: "This is part of the circle trap. Either God is telling me turn back to the old paths, or I am somehow missing the truths that would lead me out of the confusion. Thus, itching ears , in my case, I am at a point in my life where my prayers have become, I am willing to go either way, but only with conviction, since without it , either way, it is meaningless if there is no faith behind it." Jim, I am sorry to disagree with you on this point but when you say you are "willing to go either way" I cant see it. I dont see a willingness to move FORWARD, instead it seems you are standing still, looking back (to SDA) and waiting for God to give you a definite PUSH in the right direction. You speak often of needing to go and try a new church, but have you actually done it ? If you attend a church a few times it does not mean that you have to stay in the first one you try. But you do need to TRY. Pick a church, walk through those doors and sit down. Listen. Accept the smiles and handshakes from the people there. Listen. Sing songs of praise with fellow Christians, and LISTEN, listen for God speaking to you. Don't shut yourself out from fellowship because you think you may not fit in,. Going to a new church is unfamiliar, it is normal to feel out of place at first. Expect it. But sit down, pray, sing, and listen. If they are using the BIBLE ONLY and you are welcomed warmly, go back a few times and see if that is where you should "stick" If what you hear is sound doctrine, you will know. Dont be afraid to ask questions. If not during Bible study then ask to speak to the pastor in private after church. God most probably isnt going to smack you upside the head and say "go to THIS church". But once you are there He will let you know if you should stay. If after a few visits it still does not feel right, then move on. You WILL find where you belong Jim, but not until you are willing to get out there and search for it. Jim : "My faith does however remain in Christ. In His mercy I at least embrace that truth. But where to from here? This I do not know." Your faith is in Christ, so YOU ARE SAVED! as far as "where to from here ?" Fellowship with others who also desire to "embrace the truth". You wont find that sitting at home. Get out there and start exploring Jim. Make a promise to God and to yourself that you will start THIS WEEK seeking fellowship. Make it into an adventure.... go "church shopping" if you need to for a while, see what is out there and God WILL let you know when it is time to stay put. But right now, you seem to be in the middle of nowhere....time to make a move. Walk through those doors with faith that God will be there with you and will let you know when you are in the right place. You are not going to find it if you don't LOOK. Jeremiah 29:12-14 12 Then you will call upon Me and go and pray to Me, and I will listen to you. 13 And you will seek Me and find Me, when you search for Me with all your heart. 14 I will be found by you, says the LORD, and I will bring you back from your captivity; I will gather you from all the nations and from all the places where I have driven you, says the LORD, and I will bring you to the place from which I cause you to be carried away captive. Believe it Jim, and step out in Faith.Just do it.  | ||
| Rossbondreturns Registered user Username: Rossbondreturns Post Number: 293 Registered: 10-2009  |
I don't often go to the Nike School of Evangelism but I gotta agree with Skeeter. Just Do It. (Skeeter we don't owe them money for using this do we...if so you're paying). (Edited to remove a but since I don't like to repeat myself). (Message edited by RossBondReturns on November 03, 2011) | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 2224 Registered: 7-2007 |
Jim; you have to decide whether to: A. Join a cult such as the Seventh-day Adventist or Roman Catholic church so you can have a list of rules to make you feel like you're accomplishing something, while (as you and I well know) still lacking any assurance of Salvation. Or... B. You can accept Jesus' finished work in your behalf, admitting that you cannot add one thing to save yourself. Meanwhile, you're just "spinning your wheels," not accepting Jesus' sacrifice in your behalf. You are taking an awful chance doing that. Any of us could have a heart attack or get in an auto accident and suddenly find ourselves in eternity! You will NEVER figure it out in your head! You have to accept it by faith! "But without faith it is impossible to please Him [God]." Hebrews 11:6 | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1406 Registered: 5-2007 |
Asurprise, Accepting Christ's finished work is my primary aim. It is the circles I run into in scripture that cause the confusion. | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 2227 Registered: 7-2007 |
Don't aim to accept Christ's finished work, Jim. Just ACCEPT His finished work in your behalf! Isn't it obvious to you that the law only exists to point out sin? It's a tutor to lead the sinner to Christ and once the sinner has come to Christ, he is no longer under the law. Haven't you read Romans 7:1-4? It points out that once the sinner has come to Christ, that if he goes back to the law, he commits spiritual adultery. | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1407 Registered: 5-2007 |
Asurprise, I wish it were that simple. But as I have attempted to express in my post 'Comprehending Romans'. It keeps referring back to the law. When you say to me just accept, at that same transaction ,I have to ignore the other 90% of the text. The text nowhere in my understanding when I read it simply leaves it at 'just accept'. It back loads everything with circles to the law, and an array of "if's". My argument is , I am getting incomplete navigation to use an analogy. You have to have three reference points to fix a position and take a heading. Where you are, where God is, and where His Law is. If I ignore either God or His Law from my position, I have no means to navigate. I am left without a reference or a means to any objective course. I look at the purpose of the law. To identify sin. If each of the laws represent sin by commission or ommission, then it is always a true. Since the NT scriptures keep saying we must not live in sin, or to put away xyz, then it remains that we have a work to do. But how do we know what sin is? The law. Where there is no law, sin is not taken into account. Now I know that the law ends up killing. But the Law is also Spiritual and a constant. If then , I am clearly not under, controlled by, obligated to any of the law. Then I am free to go where? Lash the wheel, hit the throttle and just see where you end up I guess? When I see the circles back to law, by implication, and when I see other faiths saying that we keep 90% of law (reinstated) I jam up. Because if we are using 90% of the set on the same tablets, then 100% apply and the Sabbath is also a moral law. In order for me to break free. I have to somehow understand with conviction the law is no longer applicable to Christians 100%. 100% no law, or 100% we keep the law, the tablets. Then once I am free from the law, I have to understand how to navigate. How to recieve the Law of Christ and how to defend myself and my mind from the ministry of death. I have an assortment of teachings I gleen from the NT. I have not been able to incorporate them effectively because I am trying to listen to instructions from the scriptures that run me in circles. What exactly is causing this mind numbing confusion , I am not sure. I am not the only one with this problem. Sometimes , I feel as if I am the only one expressing it. That makes me foolish. I get that too. Jim | ||
| Handmaiden Registered user Username: Handmaiden Post Number: 263 Registered: 7-2008 |
Dear Jim, First of all I would like to say that it is not my heart or my intention or my motivation to “beat” you up. My heart and intention and motivation is to get you to move from no man’s land into the kingdom of God. Jim, it does not matter if you pray and read your Bible every second of every day for the rest of your life… that is NOT what makes you a Christian. What makes a Christian is whether or not you have accepted and FULLY TRUST in the finished work of Jesus ALONE. It is NOT what you DO, BUT WHO YOU HAVE and WHO HAS YOU. I can tell a lot about a person by what comes out of their mouth. Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. Luke 6:45 Is it all about them and what they have done or is it all about Jesus and what He has done? I hear you talk and talk and talk about confusion and what you have done, but I don’t hear you talk about Jesus and what He has DONE in your life. God is not the author of confusion. The devil is the author of confusion. If you are confused it is because you refuse to leave the sda church and it’s false jesus and it’s false doctrines of demons and it’s false prophet …..you refuse to leave in your HEART. You are always LOOKING BACK to Egypt and LOOKING BACK to Sodom and Gomorrah. LOOKING BACK to how good you had it when you were in slavery in Egypt and all the treasure you had in Sodom. You are halting between two decisions, going forward with Christian liberty or going back to the bondage of the sda. If GOD be GOD then leave ALLLLL, forsake ALLL and follow HIM. You KNOW in your heart that egw and her false, deceptive, bondage, religious system, is not the way. Why do you hesitate?? How long will you halt between two opinions?? How long will you desire the “comfort” of the enemy of God?? Truly God is better than the comfort of 10,000 friends. What does it profit a man to gain the whole world and lose his own soul? Mark 6:36 Far better to be saved and lose EVERYTHING and even be tortured for Christ then to live in the lap of comfort and "fit in" without Him. God is a jealous God and He wants ALLL of you. You have a divided heart and it is making you unstable in all of your ways. James 1:8 I believe that your confusion over law and grace is more an excuse to avoid the descision rather than a dilemma you want solved. I believe you know the solution is not found with your mind/REASONING. The verses that have you spinning your wheels are spiritually discerned. There is no requirement that you understand every verse, or every doctrine or every principle in the Bible to be saved. Most people have known far less than you know now and put their trust in Jesus for salvation. For me it took only two verses to leave the rules and regulations of religion and cling to Jesus in relationship and liberty. This is the first one: if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. Romans 10:9 I read that verse for the first time in my catholic bible, when I was trying to prove the catholic church was right and this verse just jumped off the page and hit me between the eyes .... I read it again and again and again then said "where is the rest of the list"??? "Where are alllllll the things the catholic church says i must DO to be saved"???? No list ...just believe and confess and be saved. The second verse that hit me confirmed the first: Then they said to him, “What must we do, to be doing the works of God?” Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.” John 6:28-29 Jim, on the merit of those verses John and Romans alone I gave my heart and my life to Jesus 39 years ago. I have never ever ever regretted that decision for one second. It seems to be that for years the sda cult has molded and shaped and squeezed you into a box, that now you fit.. It has become your comfort zone and you are unwilling to leave it, to stretch out and live in the liberty of salvation in Christ alone. The prison door has been open for many years, but you refuse to walk out the open door, preferring the structure of your prison cell, where you fit in and are accepted by the other prisoners, who have also been molded and shaped and regulated into submission and do not know how to live free. The criteria for finding a church is IF they have the TRUE BIBLICAL JESUS and preach the simple gospel of salvation by trusting in HIM alone. Church/fellowship with believers is not about socializing. It is about WORSHIPPING Jesus. It is not about ball games, or sports, or hunting or materialism or whether or not you fit in. It is about JESUS. You can have friends saved or not, to play ball with or not, to go shopping or hunting with or not... but Church is about JESUS. It is the Holy Spirit’s job to lead you into alllll truth. But the Holy Spirit is not going to teach you the “algebra” of the Bible until you at least know your basic “numbers”. You will not understand the liberty of the gospel until you accept Jesus once and for all with an undivided heart. You will not understand the laws God writes on our hearts until they are written on your heart. You will not understand the Bible more fully, until you are born again. The Bible is written to believers and its insights are SPIRITUALLY discerned. I know you think you are saved and you are hoping that you are saved .... BUT you do not KNOW that you are SAVED??? The confusion and turmoil of your posts convinces me that you do not know the PEACE of being secure in Jesus. I write these things to YOU WHO BELIEVE in the name of the Son of God that you may KNOW that you have eternal life I John 5:13 Do you KNOW that you are saved…past tense??? Do you KNOW that your name has been written in the Lamb’s Book of Life???? Have you jumped into the arms of Jesus or do you still have one foot in Adventism??? I know it is scary. I know it is hard. We have all been in the same place you are now, leaving behind the familiar for the unknown. That is why it is called a leap of faith. But let me put it in a better light for you, Jim. It is the same position as a person on the 10th floor of a burning building jumping into the the fireman's net below. It is either jump or die. It is the same position as a person on the Titanic getting into a life boat, BEFORE there is any physical evidence that the Titanic is really going down. You are leaving a place of happiness, of warmth and security for a small, cold, dark, place on a lifeboat. But the reality is that the happy, warm secure place will cost you EVERYTHING...it will cost you, your eternal life. sda/egw like the Titanic is going down and that cold, dark place on the life boat is likely to be your home until Jesus comes back. Which will you choose???? It is a choice between life and death. Life on earth as a true believer and follower of the true Jesus is not a bed of roses. I have found that it has cost me everything to follow Jesus...my parents, my husband. siblings and even my dear children that I raised from my heart, have found the enticing temptations of the world preferable to picking up "your" cross and following Jesus. Count the cost of following Jesus, but know HE is truly worth it. You are in agony now because you have not made the choice. The Titanic still looks inviting, the music is still playing, everyone is still having a good time....but it is an illusion soon the ship will tilt, the realization will hit...the ship is going down...the life boats are long gone and the icy grave is just a prelude to the jaws of the just judgment of hell, from a just God, Who justly allows us to make a choice to reject His Son at our own peril. The place on the life boat seems so inviting now....especially since you are NOT alone, there are others there like those on this forum, who have chosen their place and are shivering in the lack of warmth from this world that is not our home. But more importantly HE is there with us, for even if a mother forgets her child, HE WILL NEVER LEAVE US OR FORSAKE US. HE IS WORTH IT ALLLLLLLLLL. But I do not want you to jump into the arms of Jesus because you are afraid of going to hell ( whether you believe in it or not does not change the fact that it exists. Jesus taught more about hell than heaven). I want you to jump into the arms of Jesus because you love Him and trust Him and it is pure joy for you to do so. Just as your kids jumped for pure delight into your arms, with no fear that you would not catch them because they knew you loved them. KNOW THIS JIM that JESUS LOVES YOU. You cannot disappoint Him. He knew you before you were knit together in your mother's womb, He know every thought, word and action you have ever had or will have. He knows allll of your future sins. He knows you and He loves you enough to die for you and enough to want you in His family forever not based on your merits but because that is what He created you for and by His grace and mercy redeemed you for that very purpose. All that being said I want to try one more time to make the distinction between law and grace as clear as I possibly can. The Old Testament was the covenant between God and the Jews NOT the gentiles. The New Covenant is the covenant between God and believers NOT unbelievers The law is for the unsaved NOT the saved. Grace is for the saved NOT the unsaved. You cannot be both Jew and Gentile at the same time. It is one or the other NOT BOTH You cannot be under the Old Testament and the New Testament at the same time. It is one or the other NOT BOTH You cannot be a believer and an unbeliever at the same time. It is one or the other NOT BOTH. You cannot be under law and grace at the same time. It is one or the other NOT BOTH The Jews are under the Old Covenant UNTIL they accept Jesus as their Messiah and then, they as believers are under the New Covenant. The Gentiles are not under covenant with God UNTIL they accept Jesus as their Savior and then, they as believers are under the New Covenant. The unsaved are under law (the law of Moses-Jew or the law of conscience-Gentile) UNTIL they accept Jesus as their Savior and then, as believers they are under grace. Believers are led by the Spirit to live a holy life. He is their teacher, counselor, comforter, convicter and guide. Christians do not have a free ride or a license to sin. Christians that do sin are disciplined by their Father in heaven, Who loves them and brings them back into fellowhip with Him....He does not kick them out of the family. For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- not by works, so that no one can boast. Ephesians 2:8-9 NO mention of law in this verse. For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. Romans 3:28 Through Him everyone who believes is justified from everything you could not be justified from by the law of Moses. Acts 13:39 Who has saved us and called us to a holy life--not because of anything we have done but because of His own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time. II Timothy 1:9 He saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit. Titus 3:5 Now we know that what things so ever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law Romans 3:19 BELIEVERS are not under the law - 10 commandments Believers are under the law of liberty in Christ Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in His sight Romans 3:20 It was to prove at the present time that He Himself is righteous and that He justifies him who has faith in Jesus. Romans 3:26 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Romans 3:28 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law. Romans 3:31 Jim, faith does not void the law, by faith we as believers die to the law and it no longer has jurisdiction over us.... as believers we have a higher law the law of the Spirit. The law is still established for those who do not live by faith and are still under its jurisdiction. The book of Romans is a contrast between: those who live by faith and those who do not those who are under the law and those that have been set free from from the law those who are alive to the law and dead to the Spirit and those who are dead to the law and alive to the Spirit. You have to understand the context and the contrasts to understand the book of Romans. Jim I hope and pray that this post has been helpful to you. I hope and pray that you will stop spinning your wheels and stand on the Word of God. I hope and pray that you will stop looking back and look to Jesus the Author and Finisher of our faith. I hope and pray that you would lay down allll of your burdens, worries, confusion, striving and stress at the foot of the cross and rest, truly rest in the finished work of our Lord and our Saviour Jesus Christ. I hope and pray that at last you would give it allll to Jesus, all the past hurt, failures and requirements, all the present fears, struggles and loneliness, all the future hopes, dreams and plans...give it allll to Jesus, all of your life past, present and future, all of your heart, all of you, Jim. Jump into the arms of Jesus. He will NOT fail to catch you. Jesus truly did come to give us life and life abundantly. Your life will be filled with joy that is not dependant on circumstances, peace that passes understanding, and love that fills the empty place that only God can fill. I pray all of this for you, my dear friend in the name of Jesus, Who hears every cry of our hearts and is the answer to all of our prayers. God bless you Jim. I am hoping and praying for Good News from you soon. love handmaiden | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1409 Registered: 5-2007 |
Handmaiden, Thank you. Jim |
