| Author | Message | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 13085 Registered: 12-2003  |
OK--Richard and I have been watching a new series of five sermons by Doug Batchelor. The series is called "Anchors of Truth", and it was broadcast over 3ABN. In this series, Doug wears a suit that is exactly half black and half white. The division runs right up the center of his body, and he even wears a black and a white shoe. He plays the part of a "Christian pastor" whom he calls "Pastor Barney" when he turns his white side to the audience, and he plays himself as an SDA pastor when he answers Pastor Barney from his black side. (Yeah...) His topics include Sabbath, the sanctuary, the rapture, food law, etc....and his "Christian arguments" are so offensive. He clearly has no understanding of how Christians understand Scripture and why they believe as they do, and he grossly misrepresents Christian arguments and makes a mockery of "Pastor Barney"...sigh. His arguments are straw-man arguments, but SDAs (and those who don't know Scripture) would be overwhelmed by his erudite "answers". I find myself SO upset by this, although it's really nothing new. I think the upsetting thing is his staging...playing as if he knows Christian biblical reasoning. It is interesting, though, that in spite of himself, he reveals the darkness of Adventism in the symbolic colors. He claims he represents himself by the black suit because he never preaches in a white suit, and he even admitted that the "white side" is echoing "Barney Hin" (his joke on "Benny Hin"). Nevertheless, Adventism is clearly represented by black, and "other Christians" are represented by white Anyway, if anyone wants to see them or just see how he stages this, the videos are accessible here: http://www.youtube.com/user/mkencrl#p/u/6/cx6WknFS1bo The above link brings up the first video in the series, and the others are easy to find. (Calm down, Colleen...) | ||
| Trans4mer Registered user Username: Trans4mer Post Number: 33 Registered: 9-2011  |
Colleen, thanks for briefing us on that website video. I think I'll try and tell McAfee and any other firewall/protective software that this is a very dangerous virus. If I was a competent hacker I'd do more...... It's just my opinion, and as Charles Barkley says, "I could be wrong but I doubt it", but those 'exposures' are toxic. If you and Richard got infected please avoid us.  | ||
| Mkfound Registered user Username: Mkfound Post Number: 154 Registered: 1-2011 |
Colleen, I can see why smoke is coming out of your ears... and I could barely stand to watch even part of Doug Batchelor. I have a gag reflex going, and I just had to turn it off. Yech! Doug never really sat well with me even as an sda. He seems like a very slippery salesman. However, I did watch his 'born again' story/testimony about a month ago on 'Reallllly Living', a show on 3ABN and that gave me a new perspective on him. What I just could not figure out is how he got sucked into adventism. He was baptized by Baptists in a mountain stream, and thought he was on top of the world. He claims he was born-again then. He explains that he was then an 'immature Christian' and learned the "truths" as an sda. I'm wondering "What happened to him?!" He's evidently working as hard as he can to promote sda doctrines. It's no coincidence that they keep pushing those peculiar sda doctrines that don't agree with true Christianity. It is such that any sda will never feel comfortable with other Christians, and reject the true gospel <--- at least this is what sdaism is really working towards under the surface. | ||
| Kelleigh Registered user Username: Kelleigh Post Number: 178 Registered: 7-2011  |
Plain offensive. Doug what are you doing? We met Doug when he came to Australia. My husband and I lined up to shake his hand at a big camp meeting held in Sydney on the 2000 Olympics site. I had just responded to Doug's altar call during the main Sabbath service. That call was one of the weirdest things. It was so powerful I couldn't stop myself from responding. I actually struggled to resist getting off my seat! I eventually walked down the front of the auditorium in front of thousands of people with tears streaming down my face. I was terribly embarrassed the whole way through. But I believed it must be the Holy Spirit drawing me. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 9463 Registered: 3-2004  |
He has always been offensive to me. I have said before and will say again, he is a slick, sneaky used car salesman who says the car he is selling is in A-1 condition and it is not and he knows it. I listened to about 2 minutes of him and turned it off. Our awesome God does not need a black/white suit! Diana L | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 2603 Registered: 5-2007  |
I logged on and could only watch for about thirty seconds. Couldn't stand him and didn't even turn on the sound. Phil | ||
| Bskillet Registered user Username: Bskillet Post Number: 889 Registered: 8-2008 |
This guy is a grade-A, industrial-sized douchebag. The 34,000 different denominations thing is very disingenuous. Most of the various Christian denominations and groups do not get formed over a split on doctrine. Instead, they usually get formed purely because of a need for regional organization. For instance, there are several Lutheran synods that probably agree on every single thing, but exist because different synods were formed at different times and places by different people who wanted to join together regionally. I attend an Ev. Free Church, which is only a denomination in the loosest sense of the word, and doesn't teach anything you wouldn't hear at a Baptist or non-denominational evangelical church. Most Protestant denominations agree on 95%-99% of doctrine, with the other 1%-5% are by definition considered secondary issues (since by definition being Protestant requires agreement on the primary doctrines of the Christian, apostolic, and reformation faith). | ||
| Bosslady Registered user Username: Bosslady Post Number: 22 Registered: 7-2009 |
Why are torturing yourself??? Don't watch him! | ||
| Kiki Registered user Username: Kiki Post Number: 26 Registered: 9-2011 |
I fell asleep through the middle of the talk so perhaps he did not mention that salvation is a gift, if we have to work to receive a gift then it is not a gift and even the Bible says that it is not of works so that no one could boast. I went into Adventism from a background of complete theological ignorance and fell for it, line, hook and sinker. Almost every Sabbath I felt that I had failed to keep the day and was never sure of my salvation, just another problem/worry/concern to be added to my growing pile of everyday problems. I feel that SDAs are the modern day Pharisees, a stumbling block to those that want to know God. | ||
| Rossbondreturns Registered user Username: Rossbondreturns Post Number: 279 Registered: 10-2009  |
Too bad he didn't truly build a custom half black and half white tie. Seriously he's speaking blasphemy out of both sides of his mouth, and I'd suspect he'll finally have his tongue tied at the Great White Throne...but you never know. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 13087 Registered: 12-2003 |
We watched these because we sorta need to "keep up"...they keep changing their words and strategies, and often they are responding to things formers who have found Jesus say about Adventism. One thing I found telling and fascinating in one of the last two shows was that he said Adventism is "not a denomination". It is a movement that God raised up, and true believers will become joined to that movement as time goes on. So he leads by talking about all the denominations who think they're "right" (which Bskillet addressed so well above), but near the end he admits they're not a denomination. You know, that admission is actually admitting they're not part of the Christian community. They function publicly as a denomination and relate to other Christians as just another denomination, but underneath...they don't identify at all with Christian churches. They're "other"...they're a "movement". He did say Adventism is God's true church. Colleen | ||
| Rossbondreturns Registered user Username: Rossbondreturns Post Number: 282 Registered: 10-2009 |
To which I respond...then Peter, James and John were Adventists? Come on Doug at least try and make sense. | ||
| Nowisee Registered user Username: Nowisee Post Number: 971 Registered: 5-2009 |
MK, Doug did a whole lotta drugs during that time he lived with many others in the drug culture--- | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 1838 Registered: 3-2009 |
Yes, I've heard that since I was a boy long time ago. "We are not a denomination, we are a 'the adventist' movement." And so when I refer the them, I now do not call them the adventist church, but the adventist movement or adventist organization. Since they're really not a church. Hec | ||
| Thegoldenway Registered user Username: Thegoldenway Post Number: 191 Registered: 5-2011 |
After learning all that I have about SDAism I have a real hard time calling them a church whenever I happen to be talking to someone about them. I usually just call them the SDA organization. But I do like movement tho....in having worked in the nursing profession we used the word 'movement' to describe a certain bodily function. Ya I like movement better than organization. I think I'll just start calling them the SDA movement from now on. lynn | ||
| Butterfly_poette Registered user Username: Butterfly_poette Post Number: 92 Registered: 5-2011 |
The black and white suit is so ludicrous that he does not even need to speak for me to think his presentation is idiotic. | ||
| Jannalee Registered user Username: Jannalee Post Number: 8 Registered: 2-2008 |
Posting under my wife's login here, because I don't my own. We just watched about the first 20 minutes of this video - can't say I've ever like Doug, but he comes across to me as being genuine in what he believes, but just being a guy parroting what somebody else has told him, without really getting it. The example in the first message (and this was about as far as I got, before I had had enough of his nonsense) about the guy stealing from the shop and then being let off by the police officer and how he could be arrested again if he kept stealing, was just plain irrelevant; it occurs to me that if he were looking at salvation as a diplomatic immunity - we're no longer citizen's of sin but citizens of grace, so sinning won't bring the penalty of death as it did for those who sin, might help him to see the light. To take this example further, if a diplomat were to be caught committing crime, it doesn't reflect well on his country; but he is still immune from prosecution under the law. The same can be said for our citizenship in heaven. I know I've heard Doug's arguement from other SDAs who I encountered when my wife was in the processing of leaving the SDA church; and wonder if using a diplomatic immunity example in response might help them to understand "no longer under the law but under grace" better. The other arguement Doug used which sounded great on the surface effectively amounted to him saying that once we're free from sin and no longer under the law, that if we can't sin there's no need for Christ; seemed very circular to me though, seeing as how we need to be in Christ to no longer be under the law of sin; so to say we don't need Christ makes no sense. The only way we could not need Christ would be if we'd never been under the law of sin; however none of us would say that was the case. I think we should be praying that Doug gets convicted of the truth of the freedom in Christ. | ||
| Trans4mer Registered user Username: Trans4mer Post Number: 41 Registered: 9-2011 |
I suppose it might be a good idea to 'study the other side' like lawyers commonly do. AS LONG AS, one has some sort of 'radiation badge' that tells one, "that's enough!" A case in point, the treasury dept., last I heard, rarely 'studies' counterfeits. They study the genuine so closely that counterfeits become a glaring exception. I'm just sayin....... | ||
| Tfelmon Registered user Username: Tfelmon Post Number: 54 Registered: 7-2011 |
I was really annoyed by Doug's absurd analogy with the thief in the convenience store. For those who haven't watched the video, he was trying to describe grace or “cheap grace.” A thief went into a store and stole some food, the cops caught him and didn’t arrest him and even paid for his food. Doug went on to say that because he is now saved and not under the law, the thief went back in the store and started filling his backpack again. This couldn’t be further from the truth. When I’ve been extended “grace” by the law, I am extremely grateful to escape penalty and am more mindful of obeying. I don’t go out and re-commit the offence. If you are a sucker for punishment, watch Doug’s talk on women ordination! By the way, the SDA NAD church has voted to allow women conference presidents. This means you don’t have to be an ordained pastor to hold that role. | ||
| Thegoldenway Registered user Username: Thegoldenway Post Number: 204 Registered: 5-2011 |
Grace cost God everything. In that regard, grace is priceless. Grace is free to humanity. We don't need to do anything to earn it. 'Cheap grace' is SDA grace. They acknowledge that God gave all to give us grace, but they believe that we must contribute 'our share' to live in grace. It sounds like SDAs are the ones who believe in 'cheap grace' to me. My mom used to say, 'Dont point your finger at others because you will always have three fingers pointing back at you.' Perhaps Doug should take that to heart. lynn | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 13101 Registered: 12-2003 |
Yes...I agree to the above posts. Jannalee--(or your husband!)--the thing about Doug is that he simply doesn't believe humans have spirits, and therefore he has absolutely no understanding of the new birth and of being transferred from one kingdom into another. The "diplomatic immunity" metaphor would be good if he had that understanding, but he believes righteousness is about drawing on the power of Jesus to overcome sin in the flesh. He has no conception of righteousness being imputed when we are made spiritually alive and transferred into another kingdom. Colleen | ||
| Kelleigh Registered user Username: Kelleigh Post Number: 197 Registered: 7-2011 |
Grace isn’t cheap. It’s unfair. We do nothing to deserve grace and yet we gain eternal life. We struggle with grace because the concept is 'foreign to our sense of justice'. We want to add caveats. It seems unfair that a murderer and adulterer like King David, a human rights abuser like the Pharisee Saul, and a thief hanging on a cross who has a conversion just before death, gets forgiven. Where is the justice in that? Where is the justice for Uriah the Hittite and his family, or the Christian martyrs of the early church like Stephen? Where is the justice for the Christians who have suffered when a 'last minute ring-in' like the thief on the cross gets the same reward?? If you want fairness, try a religion like Hinduism, which teaches that our souls must go through thousands of incarnations before paying for all our sins. Grace doesn't seem fair. Our humanity struggles with it. Some call grace 'cheap' if there aren't any caveats attached. But when the magnitude of God’s grace dawns in our experience we can only fall at the feet of Jesus and worship! Pure gratitude and joy fills us, our cup overflows. Pure grace melts our hearts like rules and observances never could. Our grace-healed eyes see the world differently. Our hearts are changed - we become more gracious and kind by perceiving and receiving God’s grace. We love God because He first loved us - imperfect beings loving God through, and by, His grace alone. It’s not ‘grace if..', or 'grace or but…’ There are no 'ifs' or 'buts'. Just grace. Anything more cheapens it. | ||
| Kelleigh Registered user Username: Kelleigh Post Number: 198 Registered: 7-2011 |
I haven't watched Doug's presentation, but can guess where it's headed. Ultimately we show our love for God by observing the Sabbath? I believed that too. If Doug's thief at the convenience store has an addiction to theft (as many thieves do) the thief will go back and fill his bag again, and again despite the grace extended by the authorities. Likewise human beings are addicted to sin. We've got to get real about this. God forgives - yet, as experience and observation prove, even the sincerest Christian will sin again. How incredibly humbling this is. How infinitely beautiful and praiseworthy is God's grace. God will forgive Doug's thief at the convenience store not three times, or seven times, but seventy times seven. Perfect forgiveness. Perfect grace. I can only guess that Doug's illustration forms part of a chain of reasoning that will ultimately link 'Sabbath observance' as a mandatory response to loving Jesus and the 'sign' of salvation for the last days. This is a misunderstanding not only of God's grace but of the Law and Covenant's also. Sabbath observance as taught by Seventh-day Adventists pierces the heart of the gospel. We didn't know. The following resources were helpful to me - http://www.exadventist.com/Home/Covenants/tabid/54/Default.aspx on Pr Mark Martin's website (click through to audio presentations). and http://www.ex-sda.com/5-Gods-Rest.htm by Jack Gent. Looking back, my previous experience of carefully observing the Sabbath was cheap compared with the priceless treasure I have found in Jesus my Sabbath of Rest. | ||
| Rnrplace Registered user Username: Rnrplace Post Number: 1 Registered: 10-2010 |
New controversy? A family member told me there is a controversy that is splitting their church,(SDA) with some lifetime members leaving to follow this new 'revelation" This is in a small church in the Northwest, but is affecting many churches. They did not say specifically what the 'new revelation" was. Does anyone have any idea what it might be? | ||
| Rnrplace Registered user Username: Rnrplace Post Number: 2 Registered: 10-2010 |
New controversy? A family member told me there is a controversy that is splitting their church,(SDA) with some lifetime members leaving to follow this new 'revelation" This is in a small church in the Northwest, but is affecting many churches. They did not say specifically what the 'new revelation" was. Does anyone have any idea what it might be? | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 13442 Registered: 12-2003 |
Welcome, Rnrplace! So glad you've joined us! I don't know about the Northwest "revelation", but revelations that are extra-biblical simply aren't to be taken seriously. Colleen | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 2672 Registered: 5-2007 |
Welcome Rnrplace, I take it from your user name you have found a safe place to rest and relax your soul. Hey, I live in the 'northwest' but hear almost nothing about what might be happening in the world of SDAism. My many SDA cousins not having mentioned anything odd. Could you perhaps tell us more of what you have heard? All I have seen is that the local SDA place of worship is a very small rented building about the size of a latte stand and they don't seem to be growing. Besides, who would want to go to church tucked behind a place which has a used car lot on one side and an auto repair shop on the other? Phil | ||
| Rnrplace Registered user Username: Rnrplace Post Number: 3 Registered: 10-2010 |
My sister was reluctant to tell me the specifics, (they want me back!) but I will be spending a good deal of the summer at the family property, and will have some idea at that time. | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 2440 Registered: 7-2007 |
Welcome to the forum, Rnrplace! |
