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Jim02
Registered user
Username: Jim02
Post Number: 1386
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 26, 2011 - 4:21 am: |     |
What did Jesus mean when he said , many will come to me and say Lord , Lord , have we not done all these things in my name (paraphrased) , and Jesus will say, depart from Me, you who work iniquity?
There are evidently some missing if's here.
These people believed on Jesus, (in his name),
yet, they were working iniquity (defective teachings or works, or lack thereof, sins ????)
What happened? |
Rossbondreturns
Registered user
Username: Rossbondreturns
Post Number: 280
Registered: 10-2009
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 26, 2011 - 12:20 pm: | |
These people knew of him...they knew of His name...but they didn't as the original Greek would say: "Believe into Him for Salvation."
They go through the motions, and approximate a seemingly christian attitude and appreciate Christ, they even appear to accept Him and what He has done for them but and this is a huge but...they haven't "Believe(d) into Him for Salvation."
All this to say they did not know Christ as Lord and Savior...and therefore He rightly says that He never knew them either as their savior. They were still "children of their father, the Devil." And had not through faith, (believing into Christ) "been transferred from the Domain of Darkness into the Kingdom of the Son He Loves."
IF they Had believed into Salvation they would not be at this Judgment.
IF they had believed into Salvation Christ would've said to them what He said to the Sheep.
There are going to be a great many people that I know who are going to have failed to believe into Salvation. Who are going to be thinking about the "What if's" for a very long time.
On the other hand IF you believe into Salvation before Christ comes for His church you avoid this Judgment entirely and attend the Bema Seat of Christ in Heaven.
IF you believe into Salvation after Christ comes for His church and are not martyred for your beliefs. You will be on the Sheep side of the Sheep and Goat Judgment.
In Conclusion
If you truly believe into Salvation now you are assured eternal life. 100 percent. I am living in eternity now, the Holy Spirit in me assures me of Salvation. The moment I take the final breath in this life God gives me I take my first breath of my forever life in Heaven with Him.
There's a huge uncrossable chasm between believing into Christ for Salvation and simply believing that Christ exists and was a good teacher.
It's when we come to the end of ourselves and believe into Christ that we cross that chasm, the only things we bring to our Salvation are the sin we need to be saved from and a white flag of surrender.
IF we fail to do that the consequences are also eternal, but not a place where any true believer would want to be.
Hope that clarifies things.
Ross |
Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 13088
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 26, 2011 - 1:14 pm: | |
Jim, you have left out the definitive phrase in that passage from Jesus. Here is the passage in context:
quote: “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’
(Matthew 7:21-23 ESV)
The point is not that those people have "worked iniquity" by not measuring up to some standard of righteousness. Their iniquity, their "lawlessness", is that they did not believe and thus be born again.
Jim, it's not their deeds that makes them saved or lost. It's whether or not Jesus KNEW them. He knows those whom He indwells. He indwells those who trust Him and believe in His finished work of atonement for them.
Those who do not believe are lawless. His command is that we believe in the One whom He sent.
Colleen |
Asurprise
Registered user
Username: Asurprise
Post Number: 2212
Registered: 7-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 26, 2011 - 7:06 pm: | |
Jim; Colleen has it right! 
(As my pastor once said, "Jesus didn't say, 'I knew you and forgot you.' He said, 'I never knew you.'")
Jim; please accept Jesus for yourself. Put your full weight down on Him instead of trying to bear your weight/part of your weight, yourself!!! |
Hec
Registered user
Username: Hec
Post Number: 1840
Registered: 3-2009
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 26, 2011 - 8:49 pm: | |
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’
(Matthew 7:21-23 ESV)
"but the one who does the will of my Father" And what is the "will of my father?"
John 6:40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”
The problem with those people to whom Jesus will tell "I don't know you" is that they were not doing the will of the Father, but they were, as it were, working for their salvation. Listen to then: we did this, and did this, and did that. So they were expecting a reward for their work. And it is not to the one who works but to the one who believes.
Hec |
Jim02
Registered user
Username: Jim02
Post Number: 1387
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Friday, October 28, 2011 - 3:27 pm: | |
Hi Ross,
You wrote:
They go through the motions, and approximate a seemingly christian attitude and appreciate Christ, they even appear to accept Him and what He has done for them but and this is a huge but...they haven't "Believe(d) into Him for Salvation."
There are going to be a great many people that I know who are going to have failed to believe into Salvation. Who are going to be thinking about the "What if's" for a very long time.
J:
You see, you express in your first sentence a variable degree of genuine belief.
That is to say, it is not either or, not binary 1,0. It is subject to evidence and clarity of belief.
Then in your if comment,you assume that the if's are not essential, that is a lot of ignored if's.
What then is the test of believing unto Him into Salvation.?
Jim |
Jim02
Registered user
Username: Jim02
Post Number: 1388
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Friday, October 28, 2011 - 3:32 pm: | |
Mrs Colleen,
When I read that passage , I see a list of do's.
You read into it statements that I did not see.
How did you tie in your statement to this context?
Are there NT passages coupled together that say :
Their iniquity, their "lawlessness", is that they did not believe and thus be born again.
How am I missing this? !
Everything I read runs in circles or feedback loops. Sin, obedience, faith, belief, law. |
Jim02
Registered user
Username: Jim02
Post Number: 1389
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Friday, October 28, 2011 - 4:31 pm: | |
Hebrews 10:
26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.
This is a full circle example.
I don't know about you. But I figure when I sin , it is usually deliberate.
What is sin then?
Sin is not accounted when there is no law.
That list of behaviours we should avoid, Paul says , against such there is no law !
An example of mangifying the application of law itself.
Do we make void? no we establish "the " law.
Circles !
A knowledge of the truth evidently means we will stop sinning. (we will establish the law).
Of If we have a knowledge of truth and sin, we have no coverage for it.
Circles! |
Rossbondreturns
Registered user
Username: Rossbondreturns
Post Number: 285
Registered: 10-2009
| | Posted on Friday, October 28, 2011 - 4:42 pm: | |
Jim if you have believed in Him unto Salvation you would know for you would be filled and sealed by the Holy Spirit.
Once you have Salvation you are seen as wearing Christ's righteousness.
I recently found a new website (to me) that is helping me greatly to understand the differences between Adventism and Christianity.
While this link doesn't speak directly to the current question it should hopefully make things crystal clear that all we have to do is be Born Again and truly nothing else.
A very clear view on the Old and New Covenants: Covenants Outline
In other words Jim it doesn't cycle back to the Law after faith.
First Edit:Jim to address the post you made while I was typing up my post. All our sins are covered by Christ, he died for all the sins we commit. The Bible says that if we claim to have no sin than we are lying. I sin multiple times a day, probably every minute during some stretches of time, but that's all covered.
Now I don't wallow in that sin, and I ask for forgiveness for that sin, I acknowledge to Christ I committed a sin.
And he interceeds for us because His death covered that sin.
Second edit: We do not establish the Law by stopping sinning Christ fulfilled the Law, the Old Covenant with His perfect life and Sacrifice.
(Message edited by RossBondReturns on October 28, 2011)
(Message edited by RossBondReturns on October 28, 2011) |
Jim02
Registered user
Username: Jim02
Post Number: 1390
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Friday, October 28, 2011 - 6:10 pm: | |
Ross,
I will check out the website link, Thank You.
I guess what I am trying to get at is this.
In my former, Catholic and SDA years.
I more or less was acclimated to a behavior methodology. Had most of the sub rules in place, knew the procedures to working at being good, resisting sin, resisting the devil and when I did sin, knowing about confession, and try harder next time. There was a system.
The Catholic and SDA system had this down pat.
In teh Catholic system we had the added benefit of the assurance of a Priest to say we are forgiven. But we had those mortal sins that could strike fear if you died unconfessed.
Then there was the SDA teaching about having no unconfessed sins and finally being sin free if we are alive at Christ's return.
The mindset that we had to strive for sinlessness no matter what.
So then , in trying to grasp the NC , Grace and not being under this confession loop, I am trying to discover the mechanics of my own part in what it is God expects and requires.
So far that mostly consists of believing in His finished work.
It is these circular references I find all over the NT that keep me looking back to the law or other additional accomplishments or behaviours that I have to strive for to be acceptable.
They in effect take away the first premise of a finished work.
The other side of this is the first premise.
How does knowing that Christ imputing to me his righteousness actually stop sin in my life?
In many ways, I do not think it does, or at least it is not universal. For some it is a battle fo years to overcome an issue, for others , they say God took it away almost at once. I can say that I have a natural heart to love and protect the innocent. To see beauty and love aspects of nature, God's creation. Or I am inclined to be gentle, but there remains in me flaws and temptations, the usual stuff we all deal with.
So I go back to , ok , Grace means, work on my relationship with God, then religion tries to help out with suggested rules or assorted warnings. I pick up the Bible trying to maintain a focus on Grace and keep seeing, STOP sinning !
Wait a minute? I thought that was a non issue, at least in the struggle to make myself better.
Back and forth, circles. All of it eventually leads me back to thinking, God is giving us the way in Christ, yet the objective of the law remains intact.
But I can't look at the letter of the law, or fall under the Ministry of death. But the law is perfect, holy , just and good.
If through Chirst we establish the law. Then how can we be free from it at the same time?
I can say I accept Christ as my saviour a million times. But if I do not understand how to walk in Christ then I am still going in circles.
Because He says to do all these things and stop sinning.
Just as I have ahah moments in Grace, there are many times when I think , ahah, the SDA and catholic discipline view points are right afterall. We need all of it , since the aim never changed.
Round and round I go. Line up these instructions , then page two , undo those, page three, back again, page four , undo.
I truly see how agnostics happen.
The last thing I ever want to be.
But at minimum, ....I do not understand.
Because I cannot merge two sets of instructions that constantly conflict.
Jim |
Kelleigh
Registered user
Username: Kelleigh
Post Number: 191
Registered: 7-2011
| | Posted on Friday, October 28, 2011 - 10:34 pm: | |
Jim, the seeming conflict between law and grace has consumed great Christian thinkers for centuries: Augustine and Pelagius; Thomas Aquinas and William of Ockham; Luther and Calvin; the Puritan movement and Wesley. It boggles the mind!
This ancient Indian poem may be helpful
The Blind Men and The Elephant
It was six men of Indostan
To learning much inclined,
Who went to see the Elephant
(Though all of them were blind),
That each by observation
Might satisfy his mind.
The First approach'd the Elephant,
And happening to fall
Against his broad and sturdy side,
At once began to bawl:
"God bless me! but the Elephant
Is very like a wall!"
The Second, feeling of the tusk,
Cried, -"Ho! what have we here
So very round and smooth and sharp?
To me 'tis mighty clear
This wonder of an Elephant
Is very like a spear!"
The Third approached the animal,
And happening to take
The squirming trunk within his hands,
Thus boldly up and spake:
"I see," quoth he, "the Elephant
Is very like a snake!"
The Fourth reached out his eager hand,
And felt about the knee.
"What most this wondrous beast is like
Is mighty plain," quoth he,
"'Tis clear enough the Elephant
Is very like a tree!"
The Fifth, who chanced to touch the ear,
Said: "E'en the blindest man
Can tell what this resembles most;
Deny the fact who can,
This marvel of an Elephant
Is very like a fan!"
The Sixth no sooner had begun
About the beast to grope,
Then, seizing on the swinging tail
That fell within his scope,
"I see," quoth he, "the Elephant
Is very like a rope!"
And so these men of Indostan
Disputed loud and long,
Each in his own opinion
Exceeding stiff and strong,
Though each was partly in the right,
And all were in the wrong!
MORAL.
So oft in theologic wars,
The disputants, I ween,
Rail on in utter ignorance
Of what each other mean,
And prate about an Elephant
Not one of them has seen!
[John Godfrey Saxe's ( 1816-1887) version of the famous Indian legend]
The last two lines perhaps sum up the problem of theologians (in my humble opinion - lol!). Please don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying that these great thinkers were 'blind' - just that the topic of Grace is obviously difficult for us to comprehend (or why all the fuss?)
Our inability to fully comprehend God's Grace is poignantly and beautifully illustrated in Isak Dinesen's "Babette's Feast". In this moving tale, the people of a poor village in Scandinavia on whom an amazing feat of grace is bestowed are simply unable to comprehend it. A powerful illustration.
If anyone would like to read Philip Yancey's review of Babette's Feast, it can be found here:
http://www.zondervan.com/media/samples/ebook/0310264375_ebooksamp.pdf - Scroll down to pages 19-26
God Bless!
(Message edited by Kelleigh on October 28, 2011) |
Christo
Registered user
Username: Christo
Post Number: 285
Registered: 2-2008
| | Posted on Friday, October 28, 2011 - 11:04 pm: | |
Jim,
It is written, "whatever is not of faith is sin"
Faith in our Savior is the only sinless position
Enter Faith
Chris |
Rossbondreturns
Registered user
Username: Rossbondreturns
Post Number: 286
Registered: 10-2009
| | Posted on Saturday, October 29, 2011 - 10:21 am: | |
Jim,
We are simply sinless by the fact that the born again believer is seen as being IN CHRIST. We are saved by Christ's righteousness because by ourselves we cannot be righteous. even with Christ in is and ourselves in Christ we will still sin until He calls us home.
But we are saved by grace through faith and HIS Righteousness that we are moved INTO.
We are Literally IN CHRIST...Christ is literally IN US.
It is His Righteousness not ours that is being judged, because we are found in Him. |
Jim02
Registered user
Username: Jim02
Post Number: 1391
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, October 29, 2011 - 10:24 am: | |
Hello Kelleigh,
You make a very good point.
This reminds me of one the issues that keep happening as I compare notes or studies between different views.
Each of us can express our "point of view" our perception of Grace. At the same time, and often, we are each somewhat blind to the other views. We can't see it, or have not yet discovered it.
This is why I tend to think that most sincere view points based upon scripture have some merit at least, some truth.
I get frustrated at trying to decide which view point is flatly false or mixed with enough error so as to be dangerous.
Having peace with God is a personal walk in faith. But I also believe God has given to us the mission to fellowship and share for the common good. We are not likley to grow or discover truths when left alone to one point of view, our own, in isolation. We need all the view points to see a better picture of the whole Bible and most important, to find a closer connection to Christ.
Jesus said , feed my sheep. |
Asurprise
Registered user
Username: Asurprise
Post Number: 2214
Registered: 7-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, October 29, 2011 - 11:53 am: | |
Jim; the only "point of view" that's of eternal importance, is WHO Jesus is and WHAT did He do and what is our response?
He is God from eternity and became man, so He was both fully God and fully man. For example He isn't a "man who became a god" like the Mormon's teach.
He died for the sins of the whole world, providing the FREE GIFT (Romans 5:16) for any human being who accepts it. (BTW, it wouldn't be a free gift in one had to partly earn it.)
"For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. For not knowing about God’s righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes." Romans 10:2-4
"But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;" Romans 3:21-24
Jim; are you asking about unimportant opinions and points of view or are you asking what you need to do to be saved? Are you confusing the Bible's saying, in effect: "you're saved now so act like it!" with thinking that the Bible is saying THAT'S what you need to do to be saved/stay saved??? Remember, Jim, the Bible would be able to say "you HAVE BEEN saved" (Ephesians 2:8-9; 2nd Tim. 1:9 and Titus 3:5) if a person had anything THEY had to do or keep doing in order to be saved/stay saved. |
Kelleigh
Registered user
Username: Kelleigh
Post Number: 195
Registered: 7-2011
| | Posted on Saturday, October 29, 2011 - 10:11 pm: | |
Hi Jim,
As an Adventist I used to worry that if I doubted or questioned doctrine, I’d sinned. But the problem of telling people, “Don’t doubt, just believe,” is this doesn’t actually resolve the doubt! Doubts and questions just get pushed under to resurface at a later time (sometimes in a more toxic form).
Questioning and doubt is something almost every Christian experiences at some point and this is something that churches (Adventist or otherwise) do not always handle well. But questioning and doubt can be good -it lead me out of a false religion for a start! One thing I appreciate about this forum is that questions and doubts are welcome (most of the time I think). It's safe place to ask questions without fear of reprisal.
God honors questioners - think of unhappy questioning Job – it is he that emerges as a hero in the Bible - not his theologically defensive friends! I've been surprised to find doubters in the Bible and the patience of God with their questions.
You mentioned agnostics earlier - understanding how they reach that point. I've heard that there is not a single argument against God raised by either the older agnostics (such as Bertrand Russell, Voltaire, David Hume) or the by newer ones (Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens, Sam Harris) that is not already included in books like Psalms, Job, Habakkuk, and Lamentations! I thought that was interesting. God obviously understands human questioning. He invites us to "reason together" with Him. What an amazing and wonderful Father.
May God continue to bless your journey as you search for answers to your questions. As I pray for myself - may God guide you also to resources and people that will meet your personal needs.
(Message edited by Kelleigh on October 29, 2011) |
Jim02
Registered user
Username: Jim02
Post Number: 1393
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, October 30, 2011 - 6:47 am: | |
Good Morning Asurprise,
You make a very significant point in the two passages you gave. Here is where I am derailing;
"For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. For not knowing about God’s righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God.
J: The were legalisitic and of works trying to purge themselves from guilt and to please God with works of supposed righteousness. I can see this as being their undoing. BUt at the same time, they were taught this literally through many OT scriptures, which in itself is confusing to me and a set up to do what they did attempting to plaese God. Granted , their hearts were not right, but I wonder if they did not know how to get their heearts right. I think they percieved heart matters were addressed through forced discipline of works , and hoped as we often do today that the heart woudld catch up?
Bible:
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes." Romans 10:2-4
J: I interpret this various ways, Christ is the AIM of the Law, He is our 'example'to keep the law, He is the means enabling us to keep the law, He kept the law for us, but do not read into it as saying we may now ignore the law, 'God forbid , we establish the law'.
I think you are suggesting that Christ is the fullfilment of the law and thus the law has met it's completion and is thus ended as a system or command. That the letter of the law no longer applies and that we are set free from the law.
The written code, the ministry of death, the tablets of stone.
You see , I can recite it both ways and yet I still have uncertainty about it either way.
This is not a cop out. I just do not know what to do with it, where to from here?
Bible:
"But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;" Romans 3:21-24
J:
A faith in Christ for His righteousness for us, imputed, aparts, standing separate from the law.
Accessed through belief, faith in Christ and in this knowledge as truth.
'Do we then make void the law?'
Jesus said , He would write His laws upon our hearts. It is easy to understand the moral aspects of the law upon our hearts as well as the practical common sense ability to sense the right thing in the special circumstances we encounter in our lives. But , do we then have liberty to let go of the Sabbath day command entirely? If we are no longer keeping the letter, then how are we keeping the law of Christ if we permit ourselves to ignore the Sabbath.
If I could find one command in the Bible saying specifically we are no longer to keep the Sabbath it would help tremendously.
But teh closest I come is Paul's commentary saying one man keeps a day as special unto the Lord. He neither speaks for it or against it, which means , he never answered the question that I am sure was a frequent question of the day. This then forces me to make my best guess based upon what I can piece together overall.
That leads back to teh law vs grace studies and those run criss cross to references about the commnadments of God and right back into not being sure that God meant that the law is entirely set aside.
The thinking and the oft repeated argument the SDA set out is , Christ died to vindicate the law. But I also read that Christ died for all sin and to also pay the debt to the law we could not pay. I read, no more sacrifice for sins if we keep on sinning. Why is that even in there?
So the religion I end up with is, Ok all sins are forgiven. Just believ upon Christ and His imputed righteousness. Look only to him and pretty much stop worrying about what your sins that remain are. Let God worry about it.
But in order to do that, I have to ignore dozens of NT warnings and pretend they do not apply.
I end up neutralized having no idea how to cooperate with God to move forward and still no sense of assurance that I am doing anything right.
The Faith of Jesus and the commandments of God.
I think I understand the first part, but not the second part. I do not accept the two love commandemnts as being the complete definition of the commandments of God. It leaves to many passages ignored in the NT.
Hello Kelleigh,
I try not to be a source for doubt to others.
I ask questions to search for meaning and light.
Confusion leads to frustration.
Agnosticism is borne from resignation.
I do not consider myself a potential teacher of the faith. But we all should have a testimony and faith to share on some level.
Thank you for your prayers. I also pray that we may all be guided into truth and that God will supply our needs.
Jim |
Asurprise
Registered user
Username: Asurprise
Post Number: 2217
Registered: 7-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, October 30, 2011 - 1:04 pm: | |
Jim; Jesus told them over and over again, what to do. Jesus told them to come to Him. He told them to come and drink (John 7:37), and when the people asked Jesus; "what shall we do, that we may work the works of God?" (John 6:28) Jesus answered them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him Whom He sent." John 6:29.
The common people "got it," but the proud Pharisees didn't see past their pride and how well they were doing on their own. They didn't want a Messiah to save them from their sins. They wanted a Messiah to kick the Romans out of their country!
The Pharisees knew the OT backwards and forward, so they knew the prophecy in Jeremiah 31:31-34 that said God would bring in a new covenant that was NOT LIKE the covenant from Sinai, and that this new covenant would be written on people's hearts instead.
Jim; the scripture says that Jesus in the END of the law, not the AIM of the law. It's like saying, concerning a baseball game that's just finishing; "that's the aim of the game," or concerning the end of the jug of mike; "that the AIM of the jug of milk." Do you see how ridiculous that is? Ellen White is the one who says "AIM." Are you still reading her?
The law is still in effect for unbelievers. Just like when you go up in an airplane, the law of flight doesn't cancel the law of gravity, but it supersedes it.
When you become saved, you die to the law (Romans 7). It no longer has any authority over you. It doesn't have any more authority over you than it has over a dead person. See the example in Romans 7:1-4? You can't be married both to the law and to Jesus!
You don't end up with a "religion" when you marry Jesus! You are then in a relationship and with the Holy Spirit inside you, you seek to please your Lord!
Jim; Jesus is the SABBATH! Sabbath is stopping trying to EARN our salvation and REST in His finished work for us!
Every religion is an insult to Jesus! In a "religion," a person is trying to earn or partly earn their salvation. God gives it to us as a GIFT, so if we try to earn it, it insults and hurts Him! |
Asurprise
Registered user
Username: Asurprise
Post Number: 2218
Registered: 7-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, October 30, 2011 - 1:16 pm: | |
Jim; here's another example. Say, for example, the way to get to Heaven, was to jump to the moon. There would be people all over the world exercising to be able to jump as high as they could! Then say, Jesus came and jumped to the moon for us and then gave everybody who asked Him, the "righteousness" of having jumped to the moon. How insulting would it be to Him if you kept asking: "how high do I need to jump? Do I need to jump a foot or do I need to jump just a couple inches to please Him and get to Heaven?"
Jim; Jesus "jumped" for us. The standard of getting to Heaven is to be as good as God. That's as impossible as jumping to the moon! Jesus did that and gives that to everyone who asks, but you keep asking; "how high do I need to jump?"
Jim; it's like you're asking what you need to do to "earn" something that already been paid for. |
Jim02
Registered user
Username: Jim02
Post Number: 1397
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Monday, October 31, 2011 - 4:23 pm: | |
Asurprise,
Romans 10:4
NIV
4 Christ is the culmination of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.
YLT
4For Christ is an end of law for righteousness to every one who is believing,
ASV
4 For Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness to every one that believeth.
NCV
4 Christ ended the law so that everyone who believes in him may be right with God.
J: A few versions of one verse and the possibility to conclude different nuances.
From these, I may extract, a destination, the conclusion, the aim, the end of the purpose, and many more.
From it at minimum, I can see that Christ is the new reality 'of' and/or 'from' the law.
I agree that it also means that the law ends with Christ, as saying He 'is' our righteousness the law could not provide for us.
You are correct I keep asking, How much, how far, what must I do? This is because there are things in the NT that suggest this. and tehre are passages that suggest the law still applies in some way. Perhaps not exactly like it did in the OT, but in some manner. Because of the circular references in the NT.
I must sound stubborn as a mule.
Not trying to be. I am in quicksand.
Jim |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 13100
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 31, 2011 - 4:48 pm: | |
Jim, try memorizing Philippians 4:4-7. Here it is in the ESV:
quote: Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, rejoice. Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand; do not be anxious about anything, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God. And the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.
Jim, I sugest you surrender to Jesus your "right" to figure out these things. Just tell Him you give up trying to understand and you're going to just let Him teach you what He knows you need to know.
"Anxiety" can take almost any form: OCD, repetitive thoughts, chronic worry, and on and on. When God commands us to "be anxious for nothing", He says that because He keeps His word. Absolutely. He insists that we trust Him...and He doesn't resolve our conundrums according to our perception of how He should speak.
I suggest that you just stop trying to figure it out and rest. Ask Jesus to teach you what is real and true that He knows you need to know as you memorize Phil. 4:4-7. I've found that He convicts and informs me through such small things as grammar...the particular prepositions used, or the tenses of verbs or even the order within lists. Just let the word of God wash your brain and sink—almost unnoticed—into your heart.
And when you go through your day and you feel the anxiety swooping in around the edges of your consciousness, just pray out of obedience, even if you don't feel like it, that God will hold your heart in peace...and thank Him for stuff simply as obedience to the word you're memorizing. Thank Him for life, for your work, for the fact that you have food and shelter. Thank Him for your "virtual family" on the forum. Thank Him for His word, even if you don't understand it. Thank Him for Jesus. Thank Him for what He's doing that you can't see.
Just thank Him and ask Him to take care of you. And keep focussing every day on your passage of Scripture.
I can't explain how it happens, but God does give us insight and the awareness of what is real and not real when we submit our minds to Him and obediently keep putting His word in.
And when you're done memorizing this passage, you can journal Scripture. Everyday, copy some verses from Scripture, pondering every word. Go through books in order, contextually.
Just give up the struggle, Jim--but not in hopeless despair. Rather, exchange the struggle for the mundane, very pedantic and repetitive, even, exercise of poring over a small passage of Scripture, learning and pondering every word, every tense, every phrase.
The word of God is alive. We just have to submit our minds and put them UNDER Scripture instead of OVER it.
Colleen |
Jim02
Registered user
Username: Jim02
Post Number: 1399
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Monday, October 31, 2011 - 6:13 pm: | |
I really like that verse Colleen.
Thank you for pulling me down off the cieling.
It means a lot to me.
Jim |
Johnr1937
Registered user
Username: Johnr1937
Post Number: 4
Registered: 10-2011
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 01, 2011 - 6:26 pm: | |
Jim, OH HOW I CAN RELATE TO YOUR STRUGGLE!!! Having left the clutches of Adventist-ism many years ago, I experienced the same "circle feelings" for many years. I eventually surrendered all to HIM. Jesus paid 100% of our sin debt, and there is NOTHING we can add to that payment. If we say that He contributed 99.9 percent of the payment and that we must contribute the rest, what we're really saying is what He did is not sufficient - and that He PLUS we must pay our sin debt. We know that isn't true. If keeping the commandments is a condition of our Salvation, then we might as well throw-in-the-towel. No one but Jesus was ever able to keep all the commandments. I'm not saying we shouldn't live holy lives, because we're commanded to do just that. 1Pe 1:15 "but as He who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct,
1Pe 1:16 because it is written, "BE HOLY, FOR I AM HOLY."
He paid it all! I just wanted to let you know that I understand your struggle! |
Jim02
Registered user
Username: Jim02
Post Number: 1402
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 02, 2011 - 6:47 pm: | |
Hello Johnr1937,
Welcome to the forum.
Teaching and processing in circles is both frustrating and exhausting. Getting off the merry go round safely, if I can just do that much, .......they call it faith in His finished work.
Jim |
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