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Jim02
Registered user
Username: Jim02
Post Number: 1366
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Friday, October 14, 2011 - 4:40 pm: |     |
Grace_alone,
Am I right in understanding that every time Jesus said "keep my commandments" he's talking about the 10 Commandments?
J: No , in a general reactive sense. I consider it as meaning everything Jesus said in his enite ministry on both sides of the cross.
At the same time, I don't see where Jesus ever said "Keep the 10 Commandments."
J:What must I do to be saved? Keep the commandments, Which ones, Jesus cited some of the ten.
Yes , I know the teaching about OC NC.
G:
If I were to follow your line of reasoning, then I would have to start keeping Passover too. Jesus observed the Feast of Passover faithfully. Passover was a commandment:
J: Yeah, that is one of the flaws in my thinking.
But those were not on stone, not in the ark.
G:
I can replace "Keep my Commandments" with "Keep Passover" if the word commandment is interchangable as you are inferring.
J: No, Only the 10C and the two Love C, plus all the general instructions He gave while on Earth.
Please also explain why you brought up the Samaritan woman.
J: for salvation is from the Jews.
The Jews were entrusted with the very words of God. (The tablets) the OC all pointing to The Lamb of God.
G:
Seriously. I really don't appreciate when you say that Lutherans teach the 10 Commandments.
J: I read the Catechism by Luther and a lot of material. I think it was the Book of Concorde.
It was modeling the 10 C.
Admittedly, I have no personal extended knowledge of what is practiced in the services. I was going by the study material I was reading on the Missiori Synod.
http://www.cph.org/t-topic-catechism-ten.aspx
In any event, I truly did not mean to offend.
I will try to remember to not speak of Lutheran beliefs. |
Jim02
Registered user
Username: Jim02
Post Number: 1367
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Friday, October 14, 2011 - 4:47 pm: | |
Kelliegh,
I am too tired to think right now. But I do want to respond to you as soon as I get some rest.
Jim |
Kelleigh
Registered user
Username: Kelleigh
Post Number: 154
Registered: 7-2011
| | Posted on Friday, October 14, 2011 - 8:05 pm: | |
This is a huge topic for us formers - it takes a while to unravel it all. I'm still unravelling. I'm beginning to see a picture emerge from the rubble of my shattered former faith, where everything fits comfortably together, both justification and sanctification. Peace, Kelleigh |
Kiki
Registered user
Username: Kiki
Post Number: 18
Registered: 9-2011
| | Posted on Friday, October 14, 2011 - 8:36 pm: | |
Hi Jim,
I could be wrong on this but I have read that nothing happens by coincidence, while I have some problem with that because we have free choice, I think God is powerful enough that he can move things around and still let people have free choice.
So here we go...
Why was Jesus crucified between two thieves? Certainly he could have been crucified on another week all by himself (I don't know how they worked things out). But I think there is a lesson here. I think the two thieves represent the world, one disbelieving and taunting Jesus to save him simply to prove that he is God (no repentance, admitting he is a sinner nor believing in God). The other thief realizes he is totally screwed, big time, too late now to offer any sacrifices to amend his breaking of the commandments. So all he can do is acknowledge that Jesus is righteous and the son of God and ask him to be merciful to him, and Jesus accepts his request. The thief has nothing to offer Jesus, not before, not now.
We are that thieve. We have nothing to bring to the table to show God that we are worth saving because we will always have a sinful nature, we are unholy to the bone (our unrighteousness is like filthy rags). It is only the sacrifice of Jesus (from his love for us) that tells the Father to forgive us IF we believe in him (just like the thief). Then we are promised the gift of salvation. BUT we have to accept the gift, believe in it and live with the joy that we are saved, not wondering...I'll know that I am saved when those plagues don't fall on me or I wake up from the dead with the right group.
Nowhere in the Bible do we see the commandments split, the Law is referred in many ways, sometimes as commandments and statutes, sometimes as the Law of Moses, the Law is one package. In the NT when Jesus says keep my commandments he is saying keep what I have taught you. Jesus never said that the law of Moses and the 10 commandments were given by him, so we cannot say that he refers to them when he says keep my commandments.
Jesus said we have to come to him with the simple trust of little children, only then will we be saved. Perhaps because it sounds too simple, we find it hard to believe and accept. We certainly know that the other extreme does not work. |
Jim02
Registered user
Username: Jim02
Post Number: 1368
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, October 15, 2011 - 6:15 am: | |
Hi Kelleigh,
If that wasn't difficult enough - Jesus raised the bar even higher!
J: Magnified the law.
Yet Jesus also said
'Come unto Me all you who labour and are heavy laden and I will give you rest. My yoke is easy and my burden is light'.
J: Grasping this offer from Jesus is often the problem, especially with a legalistic mindset that I struggle to resist. While I start out trying to take His yoke which He says is easy and light, I do it through the eyes of a legalist and obviously full circle back into my own strength as I collect all the sub rules we call religion.
K:
But the Sermon on the Mount doesn't sound easy or light. Why did Jesus raise the bar of righteousness so impossibly high?
J: That is the set up and ammo for those who believe the law is the standard.
K:
Is the Sermon on the Mount another set of legal requirements?
J: Good question.
I do not believe so.
Actually, it would be a calamity to turn the Sermon on the Mount into another form of legalism. It should put an end to all legalism! Firstly, Jesus' Sermon on the Mount demonstrates the limitation of the 'law' in defining God's righteousness.
The Rich Young Ruler believed he was righteous because he was obedient to the law. Did this impress Jesus? (Do you think our law keeping will impress Jesus)? Jesus wasn’t impressed. He raised the bar.
'Sell all you have and give to the poor and come and follow Me'.
J: These examples have always troubled me. Waves of discouragement and reenforcement of much of the SDA perfectionism teaching.
K:
Whoa! Who does that? Even the apostles had homes and some had wives and children to support too. Jesus was often misunderstood because He spoke in parables.
J: Then what was His intent when He made these suggestions?
K:
The Righteousness He offers us through the Gospel. The Sermon on the Mount reveals how utterly futile it is for any of us to reach that standard. Read it. Think about it. Imagine trying to be pure in heart 24/7 for a start. If anyone thinks they can do that - and puts it on their'must do list' - they'll eventually get bent out of shape, despondent and depressed.
J: Indeed.
You are suggesting that the bar is out of reach intentionally. My problem is finding and holding onto a peace that removes that struggle.
K:
Jesus Sermon on the Mount demonstrates that it is impossible - utterly futile - for humans to meet the righteous requirements of God.
We need grace.
J: I agree. We need grace. I realize this the more I struggle in any part of life.
I think the problem is , when I know these high bars exist. The magnified law and teachings. I see my own daily existance with it's flounderings and failings, it's cares and worries and I realize I need a strength from God inflowing continously in order to have courage and hope to carry on, but it is these failings however great or small that give me to think that I am cut off from God to a varying degree everytime I flounder in some way. Kind of like whack a mole. So there is this tension between being human and pious going on all the time.
Fear has to do with loss or punishment.
Not being able to please God. I know it is not suppose dto be this way. I think the reason I get caught up in the whirlpool is because the law question keeps falling back into the equation. Barring that, sin itself, even without the law, the same issue exists, we simply do not measure up.
We are told not to engage in a license to sin.
I get that in one sense of the word.
But , in reality, I suspect , we actually do need a form of license that acknowledges that we do sin even when we wish we did not.
The change from within, I sense it, I grasp it, especially in some areas such as protecting the innocent, expressing love, gentleness, peace and so on. But there remains the flesh we live in.
We need a license (at least a learning permit) to be at peace in the midst of our failings.
K:
We have all fallen from the absolute ideal of righteousness and we have “nowhere to land but in the safety net of absolute Grace"
J: Yes ! , grasping what the safety net is in Christ is key to this struggle.
K:
When I realised that we absolutely cannot meet the requirements of Christ's law -when this concept REALLY SANK IN - all the arguments about 'what is sin' - and 'what we should be doing' and 'shouldn’t be doing' came into perspective. I stopped stressing and put my faith in Jesus my Righteousness!
J: Exactly.
That is what I am trying to breakthrough and HOLD ONTO myself. To not allow the confusing teachings about law wrest away what peace I can find in Christ's grace.
J: You said , you realized you could not meet the requirements. Do you conclude that is the case no matter how long one grows in grace?
That perhaps , it is not even our mission to strive for perfection in being so called sin free? I believe that a true and close walk in Christ will drive out sin, but I question if we should expect that our flesh will ever atain to perfection in this life. It seems scripture suggests that we should be completely sin free.
Do I have this wrong?
Do you know of a passage (s) that says in effect, we are not perfect and never will be in this life? Or Passages that say don't even get into this perfection trap to begin with?
K:
I think if we can understand Jesus, then we can understand Paul.
Hope this helps.
J: Thank You Kelleigh, It is in the right direction I believe.
Jim |
Nowhitehats
Registered user
Username: Nowhitehats
Post Number: 49
Registered: 4-2010
| | Posted on Saturday, October 15, 2011 - 7:32 am: | |
I really resonated with a lot with what Kelleigh shared.
One thing that has helped me place some of the hard sayings of Jesus' into perspective is the understanding of when the New Covenant actually began. Here's a short video clip by Andrew Farley called Crossing the Line that seems to illustrate this point.
http://www.andrewfarley.org/part-3-crossing-the-line |
Jim02
Registered user
Username: Jim02
Post Number: 1369
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, October 15, 2011 - 9:04 am: | |
Hello Kiki,
K:
Why was Jesus crucified between two thieves? lesson here. I think the two thieves represent the world, one disbelieving and taunting Jesus to save him simply to prove that he is God (no repentance, admitting he is a sinner nor believing in God). The other thief realizes he is totally screwed, big time, too late now to offer any sacrifices to amend his breaking of the commandments. So all he can do is acknowledge that Jesus is righteous and the son of God and ask him to be merciful to him, and Jesus accepts his request. The thief has nothing to offer Jesus, not before, not now.
J: "In my hand no price I bring, simply to Thy cross I cling."
We are that thieve. We have nothing to bring to the table to show God that we are worth saving because we will always have a sinful nature, we are unholy to the bone (our unrighteousness is like filthy rags).
J: Kiki , I think you are essentially right in this insight. The questions crop up for those of us living our daily life, we call it religion.
But as you have seen, we are that theif, in the end of it all, we are in the same position.
K:
IF we believe in him (just like the thief). Then we are promised the gift of salvation. BUT we have to accept the gift, believe in it and live with the joy that we are saved, not wondering...I'll know that I am saved when those plagues don't fall on me or I wake up from the dead with the right group.
J: Sounds simple. But we also have other words from Scripture that add more to it.
The IF is essential , yes, but sometimes there are more than one if's.
Nowhere in the Bible do we see the commandments split, the Law is referred in many ways, sometimes as commandments and statutes, sometimes as the Law of Moses, the Law is one package.
J: You may be correct, I am not here to defend or argue the law in of itself. I am seeking peace in Christ.
In the NT when Jesus says keep my commandments he is saying keep what I have taught you. Jesus never said that the law of Moses and the 10 commandments were given by him, so we cannot say that he refers to them when he says keep my commandments.
J: You kind of lost me here.
K:
We certainly know that the other extreme does not work.
J: True.
J: Here are a few passages as examples of trying to bring these into the whole view.
Matthew 19:King James Version (KJV)
16And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Ephesians 5:3-6
King James Version (KJV)
3But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
4Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
5For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
6Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
John 15:12
King James Version (KJV)
12This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
Colossians 3:12
New International Version (NIV)
12 Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience.
J: I see both the law and grace in view.
But do we see a pass on our sin habits and ongoing defects or failures.
The admonitions all through NT indicate the ideal of being sinless.I am trying to rectify this in the whole of scripture. |
Grace_alone
Registered user
Username: Grace_alone
Post Number: 1990
Registered: 6-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, October 15, 2011 - 12:45 pm: | |
Jim, you refer to the ark as proof that the 10 Commandments are eternal, is that correct? Where is the correlation in scripture? I mean, do you have verses to support that theory?
Along with that, what of the other contents? Why are we not concered with those as well?
"G:
I can replace "Keep my Commandments" with "Keep Passover" if the word commandment is interchangable as you are inferring.
J: No, Only the 10C and the two Love C, plus all the general instructions He gave while on Earth."
Are you teasing? If not, verses please. |
Jim02
Registered user
Username: Jim02
Post Number: 1370
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, October 15, 2011 - 12:45 pm: | |
Hi Nowhitehats,
I listened to the entire 7 sermons from the link.
He touched on many of the very thoughts I have been pondering. I am still not certain how far the New Covenant goes. As before, I realize that being in Christ should also include a change from within but also a resting from my own struggle. Perhaps it is very much an individual experience. No two are alike in as far as specific rates of progress go.
What is most important to me is to discover how to stay in Christ and at the same time be certain about the law so that I can step out from under it and stop wasting energy and time on it. If it is all about Christ alone, the more of Him that I can sense and absorb Spiritualy the more everything else takes care of itself.
Another thing that seemed to be recurring. 'Religion'
If I am looking for a religion, it is yet another sidetrack, another form of works in a way. Fellowship is both a group and individual experience. Mutual edifacation does not mean being absorbed into another system of external controls and checklists.
Thank you for the link.  |
Asurprise
Registered user
Username: Asurprise
Post Number: 2187
Registered: 7-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, October 15, 2011 - 2:10 pm: | |
Jim; are you saying that a person can lose their eternal life? If so, then how could the Bible say to believers: "by grace you HAVE BEEN saved" (Ephesians 2:8) and that Jesus "has SAVED us" (2nd Timothy 1:9) and "He [God] SAVED us" (Titus 3:5) and tell believers even before they received the letter, "your sins ARE FORGIVEN you" (1st John 2:12) and that believers "may know that you KNOW THAT YOU HAVE ETERNAL LIFE".
Do you REALLY think our discipline has anything to do with it when Isaiah 64:6 says that "all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags"??? That includes even the most disciplined person. Their discipline, their RIGHTEOUSNESS, is filthy rags.
What do you believe this means:
Deuteronomy 5:2-3 [Moses talking to Israel] "The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb. Not with our fathers did the LORD make this covenant, but with us, who are all of us here alive today."
Deuteronomy 4:13 [Moses talking to Israel] "And he declared to you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, that is, the Ten Commandments, and he wrote them on two tablets of stone."
(New Testament) Hebrews 7:12 "For when there is a change in the priesthood, there is necessarily a change in the law as well".
Hebrews 9:16-17 "For where a will [covenant or testament] is involved, the death of the one who made it must be established. For a will takes effect only at death, since it is not in force as long as the one who made it is alive."
Jim; it's not scripture that says we will eventually be sin-free; it's Ellen White.
Jim; What would you do if you had 3 minutes to live? Say, if you were in a small store when a robbery happened. Say, the robber didn't want to leave any witnesses, so he stabbed you. As you feel your life slipping away, what would you do? Would you cling to Jesus and His sacrifice in your behalf, ALONE, or would you examine your life to see if "you were making progress in sanctification" as the SDAs teach?
I'm praying for you. |
Jim02
Registered user
Username: Jim02
Post Number: 1371
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, October 15, 2011 - 5:02 pm: | |
Gracealone,
G:
Jim, you refer to the ark as proof that the 10 Commandments are eternal, is that correct? Where is the correlation in scripture? I mean, do you have verses to support that theory?
J: Rev 11:19
Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and within his temple was seen the ark of his covenant. And there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake and a great hailstorm.
J: I am not certain of either position to this conclusion. This is an example of reasonable doubt both ways.
G:
Along with that, what of the other contents? Why are we not concered with those as well?
J: I do not have an answer to that. My focus was on the commandments placed inside the ark.
J: No, Only the 10C and the two Love C, plus all the general instructions He gave while on Earth."
Are you teasing? If not, verses please.
Jesus spoke of the commandments on the mount,
magnifying them.
He quoted the commandments in Matthew.
He told the Samaritan woman salvation was is from the Jews, (they had the words of God).
Jesus spoke the two love commandments. Thus issuing 'additional orders'.
God the Father spoke from above and said this is My Son. Listen to Him.
At the ascension, Jesus said to teach them to obseve whatsoever he commanded.
All these things he spoke or commanded. He taught or magnified, He demonstrated for us how we should live.
This is why I am hesistant to dismiss anything Christ spoke on either side of the cross unless He made it conditional or temporary Himself.
When the veil was torn in two, that signaled the end of sacrifices.
Jerimiah says; We would have a new covenant,
The laws of God would be written on our hearts.
But I cannot find anywhere where it says they are different laws. Which is why I have so much difficult over the sabbath question. But He also said He would forgive or sins and remember them no more. This can be interpreted to mean past present and future. But I don't know that for sure either. |
Jim02
Registered user
Username: Jim02
Post Number: 1372
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, October 15, 2011 - 5:33 pm: | |
Hello Asurprise,
Jim; are you saying that a person can lose their eternal life? If so, then how could the Bible say to believers: "by grace you HAVE BEEN saved"
If they fall away after recieving the truth it.........
I have warned you before those who do such things will not inherit the ............
many will come to me and say Lord , have we not........... Depart from Me...
There are lists of behaviours that will get you lost in the NT.
Grafted in , Grafted back out.
Work out your salvation with fear and trembling...,
J: Why fear? Why trembling?
These kind of verses are all over the NT.
A:
(Ephesians 2:8) and that Jesus "has SAVED us" (2nd Timothy 1:9) and "He [God] SAVED us" (Titus 3:5) and tell believers even before they received the letter, "your sins ARE FORGIVEN you" (1st John 2:12) and that believers "may know that you KNOW THAT YOU HAVE ETERNAL LIFE".
J: These I put on the assurance side of faith and I hold onto these as my hope.
But the others above are ALSO in there too.
A:
Do you REALLY think our discipline has anything to do with it when Isaiah 64:6 says that "all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags"???
J: Good question and not sure I know that answer.
I know we cannot save ourselves, but evidently, there are degrees of degeneration or indulgence of sin that can lead to loss. Those lists of exclusions show that.
A:
That includes even the most disciplined person. Their discipline, their RIGHTEOUSNESS, is filthy rags.
J: Indeed, For example, I suffer anxiety and panic attacks , especially in certain situations. Things taking away my abilty to control a situation in extreme duress. That makes me a coward and teh Bible says that alone will keep me out of heaven. No matter how hard I try, I cannot keep anxiety away when in certain situations. Most often I force through what I have to do , I pray continously. But the fact that I am being crushed inside, ruining my health and peace of mind I cannot take away that I am a coward on some level because there are limits to how much I can endure. Thus , my righteousness is always going to be short. My hope is in His covering me for what I cannot achieve. But I also believe that since it is written in scripture as on the list of exclusions, then if I do not do my best, it appears I will not be able to make the grade whatever that is. This is why I go in circles.
The lists are there, plain as day.
It is all there and I do not have the keys to permit my convictions to let go of them.
It continously seems that the Good news of Grace is woven to discipline and expectations that are accountable, judged and subject to rejection.
A:
What do you believe this means:
Deuteronomy 5:2-3 [Moses talking to Israel] "The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb. Not with our fathers did the LORD make this covenant, but with us, who are all of us here alive today."
J: The covenant was with the Jews at that present time.
But scripture says that the Gentile could be joined to the faith among the Jews. Jesus said Salvation is from the Jews.
A:
Deuteronomy 4:13 [Moses talking to Israel] "And he declared to you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, that is, the Ten Commandments, and he wrote them on two tablets of stone."
(New Testament) Hebrews 7:12 "For when there is a change in the priesthood, there is necessarily a change in the law as well".
J: This is a logical key. One of which I have tried to embrace. But it is not God spoken or God written. God gave a direct command.
How do I recieve a direct command to cancel the law?
Hebrews 9:16-17 "For where a will [covenant or testament] is involved, the death of the one who made it must be established. For a will takes effect only at death, since it is not in force as long as the one who made it is alive."
J: This is a strong argument and I do not argue against this. Christ certainly paid for our sins and ended the sacrifice.
Again, the confusion. Why does NT keep referring to and citing the law?
Why do so many Christian churches model or teach the Law ?
A:
Jim; it's not scripture that says we will eventually be sin-free; it's Ellen White.
J: Not sure that is true.
Scripture says, come to your senses and stop sinning. It does not say, stop most of them.
But , I agree on this. I wish I could find assurances that we are not literally expected to be perfect in this life.
The closest I have seen is Paul's words, that which I would not do I keep on doing !
I so wished he had expounded on that.
But he didn't he went for perfection instead.
A:
Jim; What would you do if you had 3 minutes to live? Say, if you were in a small store when a robbery happened. Say, the robber didn't want to leave any witnesses, so he stabbed you. As you feel your life slipping away, what would you do? Would you cling to Jesus and His sacrifice in your behalf, ALONE, or would you examine your life to see if "you were making progress in sanctification" as the SDAs teach?
J: I would commit my soul to His keeping.
I already concluded in this string, we all die as theives on the cross.
Please understand, I want to be completely free from being under the law. I have listened to the expressions of the new covenant. I have attempted to embrace it. Waht I am struggling to do is to be certain I have God's permission to let go of the law entirely. I have already pleaded the Blood of Christ. But I still am burdened by what I think God requires of me and the yoke is still very much heavy.
No one here gets that. |
Pnoga
Registered user
Username: Pnoga
Post Number: 488
Registered: 1-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, October 15, 2011 - 7:53 pm: | |
Question,
If the ark proves that the 10 commandments are eternal, then why could no one see them, why could no one touch the ark without dying? Why was it placed in a dark room where no one was allowed to enter except the High Priest once a year? And most importantly why is the Mercy Seat covering them? And who is our Hight Priest, and what did the Mercy Seat represent?
Paul |
Pnoga
Registered user
Username: Pnoga
Post Number: 489
Registered: 1-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, October 15, 2011 - 8:09 pm: | |
Also,
Jeremiah 3:16
When you multiply and increase in the land, in those days "The Lord's declaration" no one will say any longer, 'The Ark of the Lord's covenant.' It will never come to mind, and no one will remember or miss it. It will never again be made.
We all know what the Ark of the Lord's Covenant contained, The covenant, the 10 Commandments. It was the integral piece to the whole sacrificial services, the tabernacle and later Temple were all built around it. We know that the Ark was not what was the center of the temple service, but the contents of it were what it's about. The ark of what? The Lord's Covenant! What covenant? The 10 commandments.
Paul |
Kiki
Registered user
Username: Kiki
Post Number: 19
Registered: 9-2011
| | Posted on Saturday, October 15, 2011 - 8:24 pm: | |
Has anyone read this book?
Saved Without A Doubt: Being Sure of Your Salvation (John Macarthur Study)
I get it Jim, I do not have the answer that you are looking for. I also had your struggle and gave up trying to find THE answer (in one proof text).
Barnes' Notes on the Bible (Romans 8:1)
No condemnation - This does not mean that sin in believers is not to be condemned as much as any where, for the contrary is everywhere taught in the Scriptures; but it means,
(1) That the gospel does not pronounce condemnation like the Law. Its function is to pardon; the function of the law is to condemn. The one never affords deliverance, but always condemns; the object of the other is to free from condemnation, and to set the soul at liberty.
(2) there is no final condemnation under the gospel. The function, design, and tendency of the gospel is to free from the condemning sentence of law. This is its first and its glorious announcement, that it frees lost and ruined people from a most fearful and terrible condemnation.
(The first verse of this chapter seems to be an inference from the whole preceding discussion. The apostle having established the doctrine of justification, and answered the objections commonly urged against it, now asserts his triumphant conclusion, "There is therefore, etc.; that is to say, it follows from all that has been said concerning the believer's justification by the righteousness of Christ, and his complete deliverance from the Law as a covenant, that to him there can be no condemnation. The design of Paul is not so much to assert the different functions of the Law and the gospel, as simply to state the fact in regard to the condition of a certain class, namely, those who are in Christ. To them there is no condemnation whatever; not only no final condemnation, but no condemnation now, from the moment of their union to Christ, and deliverance from the curse of the Law. The reason is this: that Christ hath endured the penalty, and obeyed the precept of the Law in their stead.
"Here," says Mr. Haldane on the passage, "it is often remarked that the apostle does not say, that there is in them (believers) neither matter of accusation, nor cause of condemnation; and yet this is all included in what he does say. And afterward, in express terms, he denies that they can be either accused or condemned, which they might be, were there any ground for either. All that was condemnable in them, which was sin, has been condemned in their Surety, as is shown in the third verse.")
Which are in Christ Jesus - Who are united to Christ. To be in him is an expression not seldom used in the New Testament, denoting close and intimate union. Philippians 1:1; Philippians 3:9; 2 Corinthians 5:17; Romans 16:7-11. The union between Christ and his people is compared to that between the vine and its branches John 15:1-6, and hence, believers are said to be in him in a similar sense, as deriving their support from him, and as united in feeling, in purpose, and destiny. (See the supplementary note at Romans 8:10.) Who walk. Who conduct, or live. Note, Romans 4:12. Not after the flesh. Who do not live to gratify the corrupt desires and passions of the flesh; Note, Romans 7:18. This is a characteristic of a Christian. What it is to walk after the flesh may be seen in Galatians 5:19-21. It follows that a man whose purpose of life is to gratify his corrupt desires, cannot be a Christian. Unless he lives not to gratify his flesh, he can have no evidence of piety. This is a test which is easily applied; and if every professor of religion were honest, there could be no danger of mistake, and there need be no doubts about his true character.
But after the Spirit - As the Holy Spirit would lead or prompt. What the Spirit produces may be seen in Galatians 5:22-23. If a man has these fruits of the Spirit, he is a Christian; if not, he is a stranger to religion, whatever else he may possess. And this test also is easily applied.
***
So what happens then when we fail and do give in to our sinful nature, are we unsaved right away?
I know that this is not the question that you are struggling with but perhaps would come eventually after your question gets answered. |
Grace_alone
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Username: Grace_alone
Post Number: 1991
Registered: 6-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, October 15, 2011 - 9:20 pm: | |
The symbolism of the tearing of the curtain was reconciliation between God and man. Not just to do away with sacrifices. We can now go straight to Jesus/God without going through a priest, protocol or works(laws) first. |
Kelleigh
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Username: Kelleigh
Post Number: 155
Registered: 7-2011
| | Posted on Sunday, October 16, 2011 - 12:12 am: | |
Hi Jim
In reply to your queries
K: If that wasn't difficult enough - Jesus raised the bar even higher!
J: Magnified the law.
K: Exactly.
Yet Jesus also said, 'Come unto Me all you who labour and are heavy laden and I will give you rest. My yoke is easy and my burden is light'.
J: Grasping this offer from Jesus is often the problem, especially with a legalistic mindset that I struggle to resist.
K: I can relate. For years I struggled to attain ‘character perfection’ so that I would be ‘ready to receive the latter rain’. It almost drove me to despair.
I was surprised to learn that many men and women in history attempted to do the same with similar results. Case in point: The great Russian novelist Leo Tolstoy spent a great chunk of his life striving to immitate Christ's righteous standards in his thought-life and behaviour. His striving never bought him peace. In his diaries, even up to his death, he ruminated on ‘his failure in life’ to reach God’s perfect ideal. Late in life, in a letter to a friend he wrote “…I am guilty, and vile, and worthy of contempt for my failure to carry them out.” Sound familiar? To his critics he said, “Don’t judge God’s holy ideals by my inability to meet them.” He died defeated in this respect.
K: ...the Sermon on the Mount doesn't sound easy or light. Why did Jesus raise the bar of righteousness so impossibly high?
J: That is the set up and ammo for those who believe the law is the standard.
K: Yes. And I believe there was more to it too. Recall when Jesus first began preaching His message was, “Repent and receive the Gospel”. Jesus was reinforcing the message of His forerunner, John the Baptist. The priority of the message of 'repentance' was foundational to Christ’s teaching. It came first. The Sermon on the Mount came later.
Note Jesus audience - the multitude that gathered to listen were largely Jewish. These were religious people - raised from childhood to ‘observe the law’. Like the rich young ruler, many could point to their lives and say, “we have kept the law since our youth”
How were such to be bought to repentance?
Enter the Sermon on the Mount.
Even in Revelation the message of repentance continues down through the ages, Jesus pleads with the churches, “Listen! You think you are rich and increased with goods, but you don’t realise your true state -you are poor, blind and naked”. Repent!”
The Sermon on the Mount is the eye salve – but it’s not the remedy.
K: Is the Sermon on the Mount another set of legal requirements?
J: Good question.
K: The Sermon on the Mount not only demonstrates the limitation of the ‘law’ in defining God's Righteousness it is meant to wake us up to our true condition and bring us to repentance so that we can receive the Gospel. In a receptive listener the Sermon on the Mount brings sorrow and repentance. Good things! Legalism is actually the bad news – (just ask anyone who tries it out long enough).
J: These examples have always troubled me. Waves of discouragement and reenforcement of much of the SDA perfectionism teaching.
K: I beleive these examples are meant to make us feel troubled. When we recognise our helpless condition it can lead to repentance which prepares the way for receiving the Good News.
J: You are suggesting that the bar is out of reach intentionally.
K: I don't beleive the bar was ever meant to be ‘out of reach’. At creation the first human beings were pronounced ‘good’. In our fallen state the bar is out of reach. Jesus wants people to recognise this so that we can receive the Gospel - so in that sense, yes I beleive His teaching was intentional.
J: My problem is finding and holding onto a peace that removes that struggle.
K: I think legalism is easier for our minds to grasp. God’s grace is a slippery concept for humans - just when we think we've grasped it - we find another 'but'. Legalism makes more sense to us. Just look at the religions of the world – legalism is always central to redemption. In the case of us formers add years of indoctrination in a ‘legalistic gospel’ (an oxymoron by the way) - it's little wonder we struggle to hold onto peace. Healing will occur over time as faith increases.
It is interesting that Jesus applauded simple faith whenever He met it. Maybe that's because simple faith is needed to embrace the Gospel of God's grace. Jesus understands our struggle with faith. Remember the Roman soldier (i think) who exclaimed, “I believe! But help my unbelief”. Jesus understood his struggle with faith and still healed his daughter. There is hope for our trembling faith too.
J: You said , you realized you could not meet the requirements. Do you conclude that is the case no matter how long one grows in grace?
K: Possibly. I'm still trying to figure it out. Growth in grace is described by the ‘fruits of the Spirit’ right? “Love, Joy, Peace...” The experience of the legalist does not produce 'peace'. A continual focus on ones failings does not produce 'joy'. A preoccupation with meeting righteous standards does not produce 'love'. So striving for 'character perfection' must be off track, right?
I beleive that as we grow in grace - in love, joy and peace... - sin will gradually loose its grip on our lives.
J:That perhaps, it is not even our mission to strive for perfection in being so called sin free?
K: I believe so.
J: I believe that a true and close walk in Christ will drive out sin, but I question if we should expect that our flesh will ever atain to perfection in this life. It seems scripture suggests that we should be completely sin free. Do I have this wrong?
K: We are ‘sin free’ when we accept and receive Christ’s Righteousness on our behalf. The great sin under the new covenant is to disobey the Gospel.
Christian obedience is submitting to the Gospel –submitting to His Yoke – which is easy and light.
J: Do you know of a passage (s) that says in effect, we are not perfect and never will be in this life?
K: No. Because the Bible does not teach that those who have accepted the Gospel are ‘not perfect and never will be in this life’. We are perfect in God’s sight because of Jesus and His Righteousness. Every time you read ‘perfect’ in relation to the Christian life – read ‘Christ’s righteousness received’. I believe this is the big picture message of the new covenant. The law is written in our heart because Christ abides there - “I will come into him and sup with him”. This occurs before ‘growth in grace’ begins.
J: Or Passages that say don't even get into this perfection trap to begin with?
K: Romans, Galatians...
Forgive my cheekiness - I’d like to borrow an 'infamous sda analogy' and give it a twist -
'Jesus is the greater light. Paul - an apostle - is the lesser light'.
I think Paul should always be read in the context of Jesus teaching. Why?
The Gospels provide four eye witness accounts of Jesus life and teachings. The letters of the NT provide a series of one-sided conversations with the churches. It is sometimes easy to ‘fill in the gaps’ in these letters with interpretations that fail to mesh with the teachings of Christ.
Hope this helps. I’m still unravelling myself.
God bless you Jim
(Message edited by Kelleigh on October 16, 2011) |
Christo
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Username: Christo
Post Number: 279
Registered: 2-2008
| | Posted on Sunday, October 16, 2011 - 12:22 am: | |
Hi Jim,
The scripture that came to me is from John 1:17
For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
I am also aware that the covenant written in stone, the 10 commandments is referred to as a ministration of death.
Kelleigh made an interesting point in her post titled " a woman caught in adultery" in that the priesthood was unable to to save those caught in violation of at least two of the ten commandments, that of violating the sabbath, and that of committing adultery. These two were punishable by stoning, leaving little chance upon discovery of there being any atonement made through the priesthood with the sacrificial system. The priesthood and sacrifices foreshadowed Christ crucified, and yet this foreshadowing of Christ crucified was unable to save sabbath breakers and adulterers.
Now we know that Christ can save us from a life of sin, not only through forgiveness by his blood, but through his life in us. Everyone sins and falls short of the glory of God, but only those who abide in Christ, or should I say have Christ abiding in them are sanctified through his life in us. A change that occurs not of our will, though many will try, and fail, but a change of him writing his heart on our heart. Sometimes that writing is resisted because it is very embarrassing to acknowledge sin, but eventually his writing on our hearts prevails, and miraculously our guilt disappears.
I believe that many of the behaviors you listed as requirements of Christ are in fact sanctifications, or fruits of Christ in you. A person my be able to fake or conform behaviors to appear to meet supposed requirements, but Christ knows the heart and when we believe he writes his heart on ours.
It is written that those who justify themselves according to the Law are severed from Christ. So the Law is not a step to Christ, ( there are no steps to Christ, you are either in him and submit to his complete love, or you are not submitted to his complete love, there is no in between, Thank God) but a wall, or perhaps a cleaver separating us from Christ. The Law, in particular the 10 were never remedied by the priesthood to those who offended, and to those who now try and live by the letter, the letter written in stone, and not the spirit, the response is still death, and not eternal life.
Jesus our High priest has better promises. If you realize that the central part of the covenants both old and new is the priesthood, and not its subjects, you will realize how hopeless the law is because it is mediated by men, and not by God. Men who cannot save you from the uttermost ends of yourself. But God can save you from the uttermost ends of everything, especially yourself. I stand corrected, not yourself personally like your the only one, but ourselves. Correction again, not even our selves but sin in us. Our inherited sin nature.
So if you seek the Kingdom of God, that Kingdom has a King who is also our Priesthood, Christ Jesus. With Christ as our King and Priest all things will be added unto you, its a promise. So this sanctification comes as a result of living in the Kingdom, it is not what gets you into the Kingdom. Its not even a tax or rent paid to be in the Kingdom, Its a benefit.
Now some will claim that the sabbath day is a fruit of the Kingdom, but I cannot find any scripture that reiterates that position in relationship to our covenant in Christ. Neither have I found rest in my performance on any particular day. The sabbath day is under a vanished Levitical priesthood, so as scripture says it is obsolete, and vanishes away in the heart of the believer. The sabbath day was never under the Priesthood of Christ, but under the priesthood of Levites. Jesus wants us to rest in him and not a day. He writes on our heart to rest in him, and not ourselves and our performance on a certain day. He writes on our heart that He is our Rest, He is our Sabbath.
Jesus the Lord of our rest,
Chris |
Christo
Registered user
Username: Christo
Post Number: 280
Registered: 2-2008
| | Posted on Sunday, October 16, 2011 - 12:40 am: | |
One more thought, it is written:
Deuteronomy 9:5
Not for thy righteousness, or for the uprightness of thine heart, dost thou go to possess their land: but for the wickedness of these nations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee, and that he may perform the word which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
So you see that it is Christ that drives out sin, because of its wickedness, never ourselves because of our uprightness, and that it is God who gives us life eternal and the Kingdom, not by the uprightness of our hearts, but by the uprightness of His Heart.
By his love and grace,
Chris |
Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 13040
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, October 16, 2011 - 12:55 am: | |
Great post, Chris. Jim, we never reach perfection in our sinful flesh. We only learn to surrender and to trust Him more. But we never reach sinlessness.
Picture it this way, if you can. Literally draw the outline of a man, and inside that outline draw a stick figure. That stick figure represents you. The outlined man containing you is Jesus. This is what happens when we place our faith in Him. God transfers us OUT of the domain of darkness INTO the kingdom of His beloved Son (Col. 1:13).
We are INSIDE Jesus...we are IN Him. When the Father looks at us, He actually sees Jesus, and Jesus is the One whose righteousness and perfection God credits to us. We are hidden in Christ. He Himself IS our righteousness. Our righteousness, when we are born again, has absolutely nothing at all to do with us.
As we live hidden in Christ, we learn to trust Him and surrender more and more of our habits and longings and desires to Him and submit to His will. It's got nothing to do with self-control or self-discipline. It has to do with surrender. You can look at Jesus, Jim, and surrender to Him your right to understand this subject. You can just "cry Uncle" and give up your obsessing. You can throw yourself on His mercy...and let Him be all you need. You don't need to worry about behavior. You just need to trust Him.
He knows how to show you what to do at any given moment. Give up your need to figure it out.
And one more thing, Jim, when Jesus said salvation was from the Jews, He didn't mean the Jews had God's words. He meant HE--the Savior, the Messiah--came from the Jews. The law and the OC the Jews had did NOT equal salvation. He Himself was our salvation. He wasn't referring to the law and the OC; Jesus was referring to HIMSELF. Of course, the Jews had the Law which foreshadowed Him, but "salvation is from the Jews" didn't refer to the Law.
He, Jesus is Salvation, and Salvation is from the Jews.
Colleen |
Asurprise
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Username: Asurprise
Post Number: 2190
Registered: 7-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, October 16, 2011 - 11:26 am: | |
Jim; you said: "If they fall away after recieving the truth it........."
That verse is Hebrews 6:6.
Have you noticed the verse before that where it says: "and have TASTED the good word of God and..."?
This is referring to people who have tasted but not eaten the good word. Before a person accepts the Lord, they have to taste and see that He is good, don't they? If they don't, they would never accept the Lord.
I read a true story about a preacher who had been talking to someone who refused to go beyond tasting. This man had tasted and tasted and was considering....
Then the man went off to do something that a Christian wouldn't be able to do in good conscience. He told the preacher that when he came back, he would THEN decide if perhaps he would become a Christian. After he left, the preacher started once more (like he'd done many many times in the past), to pray for the man. The Lord wouldn't let him pray for him and when the man came back, he no longer was interested in becoming a Christian. He had grieved away the Holy Spirit.
Again, this man had never BECOME a Christian, so the promise that Jesus gave to never lose one of His kids, didn't apply to him.
Jim; you said: "I have warned you before those who do such things will not inherit the ............"
That verse is found in Galatians 5:21, only the word is practice such things, not do such things. Again that applies to those who don't have the Holy Spirit within them, slowly doing His will and changing them from the inside out.
Jim; you said: "many will come to me and say Lord , have we not........... Depart from Me..."
As you know there are a lot of cults full of unconverted people out there. Catholics, SDAs, Mormons, J.Witnesses, and even unconverted people who've never accepted Jesus as their Savior in REAL churches! Those are the people that the Lord will say that to.
Jim; you said: "Work out your salvation with fear and trembling...,"
That's found in Philippians 2:12. Have you read the next verse?
{"for it is God Who works in you both to will and to do according to His good pleasure."} Philippians 2:13
I mentioned earlier that the Holy Spirit works inside us and changes us FROM THE INSIDE OUT.
Jim, do you think God thinks anything of your efforts to keep anxiety away?
Your mistake is summed up quite well in what you wrote here, quote:
"My hope is in His covering me for what I cannot achieve."
You need to let Jesus cover it ALL Jim! Your mistake is in letting Him cover part or most of your failings. You need to let Him cover it all! That reminds me of something in the book of Mormon that says that we are saved by grace after all we can do. Jim the book of Mormon is false. Ellen White's writings are false. The pope's teaching are false. In fact ALL the cults are false!
Yes, back in Old Testament Bible times, a Gentile who wanted to serve God joined Israel. Look at Ruth. But, Jim, we live in New Testament times now. A person doesn't join a group or nation to be saved. He accepts Jesus as His Saviour. That's all.
Don't you remember Jim, where I showed you a verse where Paul said he hadn't achieved perfection? Do you doubt that he was saved?
The law still points out sin. That's why the New Testament mentions it. But when a person gets saved, they are no longer under the law. Do you remember my pointing out that those who are trying to keep the law are committing spiritual adultery? Romans 7:1-4 is kind of a parable that spells this out. |
Jim02
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Username: Jim02
Post Number: 1373
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, October 16, 2011 - 6:30 pm: | |
Everyone,
Thank you so much for being patient with me and talking these things out.
I don't have anything to add right now , and I have probably spoken to much already.
I am absorbing what I can here on the forum and perhaps my continued studies with some books I am reading will help pull it together.
Jim |
Asurprise
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Username: Asurprise
Post Number: 2191
Registered: 7-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, October 16, 2011 - 7:20 pm: | |
Jim; perhaps the Lord is waiting until you come to the end of yourself. He can save you, but only after you give up on your efforts to partly save yourself!
Keep on asking your questions though! |
Asurprise
Registered user
Username: Asurprise
Post Number: 2194
Registered: 7-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 18, 2011 - 12:46 pm: | |
Jim; have you noticed the new Proclamation online? The first article; "He Shall Never Die" has a wonderful example of salvation by grace! Colleen was interviewing a doctor (Dr. Rouhe) who, before he understood salvation, was jealous of his brother who had down's syndrome. He was jealous because his brother got a "pass" because he couldn't do anything to get saved/stay saved. Then he finally realized that once he himself accepted Christ, he would enter HIS (Christ's) rest and then he wouldn't have to WORK anymore! He could become like his brother with the down's syndrome, in regards to not having to work anymore!
Remember Jim; Jesus took a little child and placed him in the midst of the group and said that a person needs to become like a little child to be saved.
Jesus did and does it all for us, Jim. Everything. |
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