| Author | Message | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1297 Registered: 5-2007 |
KJV 19And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail. NIV 19 Then God’s temple in heaven was opened, and within his temple was seen the ark of his covenant. And there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake and a severe hailstorm. YLT 19And opened was the sanctuary of God in the heaven, and there was seen the ark of His covenant in His sanctuary, and there did come lightnings, and voices, and thunders, and an earthquake, and great hail. J: What is this Ark about? What covenant? What is in it? What is going on and when? Jim | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 9400 Registered: 3-2004  |
(Message edited by Flyinglady on September 07, 2011) | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 2093 Registered: 7-2007 |
Well, Moses was told to make a copy of the things in Heaven, so the things he copied would be there. The mercy seat represented both God's throne and Jesus. The things in the ark represented death - the Ten Commandments, because nobody could keep them; the manna, because everybody who ate it died in the wilderness (that bread didn't give eternal life); and Aaron's rod that budded because of the many people who died at the rebellion of Korah. Would you please believe on Jesus for your salvation, Jim? Give Him all your confusion and sin. He's the Mercy Seat Who covered death. Trust in Him instead of ANY of your efforts! | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1299 Registered: 5-2007 |
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| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 2097 Registered: 7-2007 |
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| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1301 Registered: 5-2007 |
Asurprise, I asked specifically, not rhetorically. What is this Ark about? As in , it troubles me that this verse is even in the book of Rev. It is also a proof text for SDA theology. How can I answer it if in of itself it raises a legitimate question.? What covenant? Does this Ark contain a copy of the 10C , or some other document. Or is the ark empty and represents Christ alone? If it refers to the 10C is implies a standard that is continous in of itself, otherwise, why is it mentioned? What is in it? What is going on and when? Why is the ark mentioned? Why is it intergal or applicable to end time events. I know about some of the OT application and the writings in Hebrews. But why is it in Rev? If the ark is mentioned, then has something changed that makes the ark's contents not represent death? You said Trust in Jesus instead of any of my efforts. You have heard the song "Trust and Obey" The trust I can extend and so far it's about all I have is , I keep trusting that God has it covered. But right now, I still do not know what God wants me to do in regards to a church, fellowship or in following the "to do" list each and every church wants to teach by default. I so want to move forward, but in a manner that represents a sense of leadership. I do not need to knwo every last detail. But I do need enough insight to stay on a safe path and not entangle again in the sort of bondage Paul speaks of, while at the same time, trying to grow in grace in a manner that pleases God and produces a healthy balanced way of life. The fruits of The Spirit. I have bits and pieces and I am not even trying to make the puzzle fit. If I can at least see enough of the larger picture to see God's practical will. | ||
| Rossbondreturns Registered user Username: Rossbondreturns Post Number: 246 Registered: 10-2009  |
Jim, No offense but it seems as if you can't move ahead unless you do have every last detail. Part of living in Christ is trusting in Him and moving forward, beginning to leave a life of Transformation in Christ without understanding every last detail. The Revelation 11:19 Ark will certainly be intriguing however I firmly believe that as a Believer I'll be with Christ in Heaven at that time. To me however it just shows that God has kept the Covenant at hand, He shows the great importance it holds. This Covenant would probably be dealing with Israel and those under the Law who still haven't accepted Christ on the Earth (The Earth Dwellers mentioned in Rev. 3:10) and has nothing to do with us. These are the words the Lord has put on my heart. | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 2102 Registered: 7-2007 |
One thing I know is that it's the last will and testament that counts. (Hebrews 7:12; Hebrews 8:13; Hebrews 9:15-17) Also God's law is eternal, showing the standard and holiness of God. The fourth commandment says to keep the Sabbath holy. The Sabbath isn't the seventh day anymore. It's today. See Hebrews 4:7. Why? Because today we REST IN THE FINISHED WORK OF JESUS! TODAY WE REST IN JESUS. JESUS IS OUR SABBATH! The children of Israel who KEPT the Sabbath day never entered into His rest! (Hebrews 4:2-3) We who are saved have entered His Rest! The Bible says; Today, if you will hear His voice, do not harden your heart. It doesn't say "when you understand everything." Jim, please don't harden your heart in unbelief! If you accept Him as your Savior, you'll be lovingly chastened - not kicked out of the Family; when you mess up. (Hebrews 12:6) Jesus is the Mercy Seat covering death! (In my NKJV Bible, Romans 3:25 has a little number 1 beside the word propitiation, which the verse calls Jesus. When I look to the center column to which the number refers me, it says mercy seat. So Jesus is the mercy seat covering death. Will you accept Him and be covered or will you be judged by the law? | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1302 Registered: 5-2007 |
I withdraw the questions. We are all weary, I realize that. Jim | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 2103 Registered: 7-2007 |
I wasn't mad at you Jim. I was just emphatic. Salvation is infinitely important! Satan has done so much to harm people by getting people to accept works theories instead of accepting Jesus as their REST! He's done that to you too, Jim; put you in bondage to works and behavior, so that you don't dare rest in Jesus instead. I'm deeply concerned for you and hope you "see" the simple truth. | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1303 Registered: 5-2007 |
Good morning Asurprise, Yesterday, Joseph Prince said (on tv) remember this; "let not your heart be troubled" This morning a thought came to me, I want to believe it was God sent. ' Hold on to what you do understand ' For me that suggests clinging to the promises and trusting in Christ. Not so much to say that I am ignoring what perplexes me, but that I need to learn how to let them rest while I 'hold on' to the strength and peace that comes from Christ. When I lament at the vacuum places in my life, when I look at my sins and failings, I so often feel that God is angry and not pleased. When I feel depressed, sin is never far away. Again, I can't please Him by being good enough , long enough. When I look for ways to change the fundlementals, I get caught up in schemes of religion all over again. If it were not for Paul's writings, "who shall rescue me from this......." I would have lost hope alltogether. What happens in my life is I allow the things I do not understand or cannot argue a defense against (SDA theology, guilt trips, 10C , legalism mind games) to steal away the simple promises of Grace. I have to change my approach. I peeked at a SDA book thsi past week and a SDA website. It only made me fall deeper into despair. I cannot even get to the place where I can judge what they say is right or wrong. I am wore slam out of doing that. I do not want to even process it. What remains more important is to get out of this life robbing duality. I read this morning, Phil 1: 6 being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus. 3:9 .........not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in[a] Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith. I am trying to stop sabotaging my faith. Battling sin through my own strength, legalism, guilt, fear. Not being able to learn or hold onto it. These have to change. Being able to trust God also means for me, being able to trust a church again. I do not know how to do that. Being out of any fellowship also is crushing my joy and depriving me of the atmosphere of faith. I read books because I ask too many questions and weary others. I embarass myself in the process. I am not as stupid as I sound. But I am messed up with mixed up religion. I started a study book in Galatians. I also have Romans and James studys after that. I really need to try not to ask questions. Seems it does more harm than good. Instead , I need to look for the light that is given. Jim | ||
| Nowhitehats Registered user Username: Nowhitehats Post Number: 44 Registered: 4-2010 |
Jim, You are not alone in this struggle as I too have had to deal with some of the same issues you have articulated many times on this forum. Your questions are important and I trust that God will bring truth and clarity to you. I don't believe your questioning is a sign of a lack of faith. I think your simply speaking from the heart that there is confusion in your thinking as you start to experience the true Gospel found in the Messiah Jesus. I'm currently listening to a series online about 1 John. God is teaching me some pretty radical grace based stuff that has cleared much of the confusion around my misunderstanding of what it means to be saved eternally through the Gospel in Christ and how it is different than what religious double-talk has to offer. Here's the link: http://www.churchwithoutreligion.com/media-archive_1 After opening the page you'll see a player listing choices in a box. Select +AUDIO ARCHIVES and then select the 01-09-11 FIVE FACTS TO... The player should start with a message about 1 John 1. Enjoy and God bless you. | ||
| Thegoldenway Registered user Username: Thegoldenway Post Number: 123 Registered: 5-2011 |
Jim....I am so glad your are here with all of us! We are all different and we all process things differently so don't be too hard on yourself. What matters is that you are processing it and you are asking questions and you are seeking the truth. Things would be a lot easier if we all could communicate face to face....but right now we don't have that luxury. This is what I read this morning: "Surely God is my salvation I will trust and not be afraid. The Lord, the Lord Himself is my strength and my defense He has become my salvation. With joy you will draw water from the wells of salvation...." Is 12:2,3 That is what the Lord led me to this morning for my daily bread  Blessing to you, Jim. lynn | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 2105 Registered: 7-2007 |
Jim; Jesus has already done it for you. It isn't your place to clean yourself up. That's God's job. I know that we're all born legalists and we want to be able to do something to help save ourselves/keep ourselves saved, but we can't. We must depend entirely upon Jesus and I mean ENTIRELY! It sounds like you're trying to do what the people were doing in Romans 10:3 - "seeking to establish their own righteousness." By doing so, they had "not submitted to the righteousness of God." The next verse says that Jesus "is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes." Coming out of a cult like we have; and you've come out of TWO - the Roman Catholic church and the Seventh-day Adventist one - it seems like such wildly good news that it's hard to take it in; but it IS good news and it's true!!!! That's why Jesus said to come to Him - all you who are weary and burdened and He will give you Rest. (Matthew 11:28) Please don't look at the SDA books and websites. You're putting yourself on the devil's ground and right back into temptation, the temptation to depend at least partly on yourself to please God. Just curious; do you think some of the good people in the Bible were really good? Take for example, Isaiah. He was called by God to be a prophet. He didn't have to be dragged kicking and screaming into being a prophet like Jeremiah was. (If you read Jeremiah, you'll see that he tried to turn in his resignation to God more than once!) Instead, Isaiah said; "here am I! Send me." Yet what did Isaiah say about his goodness (yes he included himself - notice the verse) and the goodness of everyone else? "But we are all like an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags; We all fade as a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away." Isaiah 64:6 Jim; with our own righteousnesses being so filthy, would you want ANY of it peaking through or around the spotless garment, Jesus wants to give you? That garment is free for the asking and you don't have to work for awhile to prove you deserve it. And you certainly don't maintain it! | ||
| Gcfrankie Registered user Username: Gcfrankie Post Number: 820 Registered: 1-2007 |
Jim, I do not know if you have dish but if you do there is a man going through each book of the bible. His name is Les Feldick. He is on the following channels: 216 @ 6:00 am and 34 @ 9:00 am. I don't know if these are the same channels everywhere. He also has tapes, and other study helps. I don't know how they taught the bible in the sda schools but I do not remember at any time in any church I attended where there were bible studies going book by book, only what went with there beliefs. I have just started going to another church, First Christian which is based on the New Testiment Church and they do not pass around a tithe plate but have boxes in the back where you can put money if you want. They use the NIV and everything is from the New Testiment. Right now their sunday school is doing the parables of Jesus. If you want to try a church ask them up front for information concerning them and then after the service talk to the pastor or one of the elders and ask them the questions that concern you about what their beliefs are. I feel right now you need to stop reading any sda books and stay off their web sight. I am afraid that if you keep this up you will never be able to totally let go of them. I have been out four yrs and I still won't open any of their books as I have a great fear of being sucked back in. I praise God for keeping that thought and fear foremost up front. It is not as strong as it was at first and Jesus removes it more and more each day as I study his word and not by the way the sda teaches you should. I hope this helps. | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 2108 Registered: 7-2007 |
Jim; notice that last line by Gcfrankie: "and not by the way the sda teaches you should." We were taught that "we" were to use Jesus' power to overcome sins. Ellen White taught that and it's a doctrine of demons. God does all that Himself and we're not even saved/kept saved by His work in us. That [salvation] happens the instant we accept Jesus. That's why Ephesians 2:8-9 tells the believers that they "HAVE BEEN SAVED!" | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1305 Registered: 5-2007 |
Rossbondreturns, It certainly appears that I am waiting for all the answers. Not really. I simply have lost a sense of direction. Nowhitehats, Thank you for the link. I do hope that in time , all this will makes more sense, at least enough of it to hold a steady course. Lynn, You have no idea how much I wish I could find a former group in my area. "trust and not be afraid" Amen. Asurprise, No, I think all in teh Bible except Christ were sinners liek us. But probably a lot less sinful than our day and age. Certainly , many of them were waaaaaaaaaay more sanctified and Spiritual than I am. I was always impressed by the fact that Aaron made that calf and Peter ran. Or Paul was frustrated as he was. Moses lost his temper. David coveted another Man's wife and caused his death. The scary part is some of them reaped horrific penalties. No , my garments are not worthy, that is certain. But why does scripture say , wash you , make you clean? Gcfrankie, I only have cable. I get TBN. "not by the way the SDA teach" How do you mean, their method? Asurprise, I put that book away. But something I did see there that discouraged me, but also told me to put it up was it said that we are to put away all sin and perfectly obey the law. Is that even Biblical? I know it say that if any man sin we have An Advocate with The Father, and if we say we do not sin we make Him out to be a liar. Can you think of any example that acknowledges that sin is a life long struggle, and or that we are expected to someday arrive at a sinless state of grace in this life. You see, I am still not sure how to handle this legalism aspect. I know there is sin in a blink of a thought, as well as in the daily life. I get up , even before I go into work, asking God to help me not get rattled, rushed or angry. Some days, the tests come at you from all directions and before 9AM I have already been rude to someone. I knwo we all have these flesh human failings. But the SDA book I skimmed at seems to portray that we are expected to literally pass the perfect test. I cannot do that. Does that mean , I require a license to sin? How much is too much? Just as people say that an SDA never knows if they are saved, I never know If I assume too much. I think taht when I sin , I am a part of the cause for Christ suffering every time I fall. I feel bad about it. I know that Christ paid it all. But I am still me. I can't get out of my own way. Jumbled up thoughts... Jim | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 2109 Registered: 7-2007 |
Jim; we pass the sinless test by accepting Jesus' righteousness. In other words, Jesus took and passed the sinless test and freely offers the results, the perfect score to us. That's all. Jesus took your place, kept the law for you. He already paid for your sins; past, present and future. You need to TRUST Jesus to have done it all for you. It's like you only want Jesus to hit the home run for you and then you want to do the rest yourself. Your problem is that you don't trust Jesus to have done it for you. As long as you haven't trusted Him for salvation, you aren't saved. Once you're saved, sin isn't in the picture anymore. Jesus doesn't do just part of the work. He does ALL of the work. It isn't half your work and half His work. Jesus doesn't do things by half measures. Either you stand ENTIRELY in Jesus or entirely on your own. Unbelief - not accepting Jesus' finished work is the only thing that will cause a person to be lost. Not sin. Jesus took care of sin. How many of your sins were future when Jesus died? All of them. Christians are in Christ, so their sins have been paid for. The wrath of God for all your sins was poured out on Jesus. Would you please accept it? You asked about that verse, "wash you." Here's a verse that explains it. "that He [Jesus] might sanctify and cleanse her [the church - God's children] with the washing of water by the word." Ephesians 5:26 | ||
| Thegoldenway Registered user Username: Thegoldenway Post Number: 126 Registered: 5-2011 |
Hey Jim....it sounds like you are already reading a lot of different things. But I just finished reading a book by Joseph Prince called Destined to Reign. In a lot of ways, the way that book reads you would think that Joseph wrote that book book just for former SDAs like us. That book really blessed me. It blessed me so much that I gave my original copy away and also the 2nd copy and now I am waiting for the local bookstore to get in my third copy hehe I have a strong sense that I will end up giving that one away too. SDAs aren't the only ones that dont understand what the true gospel is all about. There are many many christians out there that dont understand GRACE and everything that Jesus accomplished for us at the cross. Anyways...that book helped me understand the gospel better. And I confess....I have been reading Galatians in several different translations over and over again. I actually went out and purchased several bible tranlations. I know I could have done all that online but there is just something about having a bible in my hands....I dont know I guess I'm just quirky like that hehe but I thought I would mention Joseph's book since you mentioned watching Joseph on TV. blessings, Jim! lynn Oh yeah I wished I was near a Former Adventist Fellowship group too!! Yeah...big time! | ||
| Handmaiden Registered user Username: Handmaiden Post Number: 217 Registered: 7-2008 |
The Ark has always represented the presence of God. It is His throne. The ark of the covenant was located in the Holy of Holies, the inside of which no ordinary person had ever seen and into which the High Priest went only once a year on the Day of Atonement. The thunder, the lightning, the earthquakes, and the hail are Old Testament symbols of judgment and were present also at Mt Sinai when the 10 C were given to Moses. It was death to enter into the Holy of Holies and it was death to look into the Ark of the Covenant. There is still judgement and death to those who do not approach God through Jesus. But that is no longer the situation for a Christian. Hebrews 10:19-22 — Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; And having an high priest over the house of God; Let us draw near to His throne with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. Everyone who is not dead to the law will be judged by the law. God’s wrath will be poured out on those who have refused God’s mercy by rejecting Jesus as their savior. Christians do not need to fear the law or God’s wrath. We have perfect obedience to the law in Jesus and Jesus took all of the wrath God had for us, at the cross. Christians have already been judged at the cross. we have passed from death to life. The only judgment waiting for christians is at the Beama seat of God to receive rewards for the good work Christ in us accomplished. The unsaved still await judgment and God's wrath at the great white throne judgement. |
