| Author | Message | ||
| Martinc Registered user Username: Martinc Post Number: 244 Registered: 9-2006 |
During our discussion thread, "In the Beginning," I was struck by how our battles in the church over the age of the earth demonstrate larger problems. This thread is not to continue the arguments from that thread, but to take a wider perspective on a 2000 year old struggle of faith. In Mark 8, the Pharisees had demanded that Jesus show them a sign from Heaven. Jesus refused, and asked the disciples to take Him across the lake. He had just performed several amazing miracles, and they didn’t understand or believe Him. While in the boat, the disciples discovered they had no bread, and Jesus suddenly said to them, "Watch out; beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the leaven of Herod." They began to argue among themselves about their lack of bread. Jesus came down on them hard: "Do you not yet perceive or understand? Having eyes do you not see, and having ears do you not hear?" (Isaiah) They sat there in the boat with Him, perceiving nothing. The leaven of the Pharisees was hypocrisy (Luke 12:1) which came from their traditionalism and legalism. They were the keepers of the oracles of God and the traditions; they had the truth. The leaven of Herod and the Sadducees (Mt. 16:6) referred to worldly teachings corrupting religious authority. Many of Herod's courtiers were Sadducees (Matthew Henry's Commentary on Mk. 8). Herod also demanded a sign from Jesus at His trial. Neither the Herodians nor the Pharisees would believe in Jesus, despite the abundant signs. Why? In our modern debates, both kinds of leavening can still corrupt our ability to see and hear. Sometimes we act as Pharisees, guarding the written oracles of God with traditions and time-bound interpretations of scripture, but tainted by legalism and hypocrisy. "If it was good enough for our fathers, it is good enough for us." If you question their interpretations, you are questioning God. Furthermore, they must be right, because they’re not Herodians! Any of us can play the Pharisee, I certainly have. Then there are the modern Herodians, those who compromise their faith for the sweet aroma of politics, big science or academia. Blending in these ingredients can enhance your career and reduce the shame of Christ and His word. Herodian wisdom seems good, but it is the wisdom of man. They hold contempt for those who believe the Bible is authoritative, and if you question them, you are suspected of being a "fundy" with a mental or moral defect. I’ve eaten a lot of that leavening too. Common to both the Pharisees and the Herodians is a hardness of heart that prevents us from fully submitting to Jesus’ identity and authority. We want to test Him on our terms. The test of faith He gives is not a particular doctrine, such as the Sabbath, or a literal 144 hour creation. Chronological time is of little consequence to the real question. The test is, Christ the Creator crucified, and the day He has appointed is Today. Speaking personally, my dull senses are realizing that the Cross offends me. There is nothing therapeutic about that image or that story, it is a horror. It should outrage us until we either break under it or flee. Our ability to see any glory in the slaughter of the Son of God, for our sin, is miraculous. It is grace upon grace. There’s no sign like the sign of the Cross. Martin C | ||
| Thegoldenway Registered user Username: Thegoldenway Post Number: 128 Registered: 5-2011 |
AMEN! Martin. There's no sign like the sign of the Cross! lynn | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 12944 Registered: 12-2003  |
My goodness, Martin, that is a powerful post! I agree with you completely. The only "hill" worth our dying on is Calvary...none of the ambiguous questions of origins and eschatology deserve the energy we spend to assert that it MUST be a certain way. As Deuteronomy 29:29 says:
God doesn't intend for us to understand all the details of everything; rather, His intention is that we trust Him. Colleen | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1311 Registered: 5-2007 |
The condemnation of the Pharisees and Sadducees, have in common that they were trying to get it right but failed miserably and may possibly have failed to be saved as a result. Not really sure. Look at Paul's beginings. In fairness, and in view also of today's range of legalists, how could these people back then avoided their error? They were imersed in theology until they drowned in it. Was their cure to be ignorant or disengaged? What they set out to accomplish with good intentions became a horrible trap leading to condemnation. Do they stand condemned for over doing it? Reading the wrong passages? How did they fall into a trap and then not able to realize their situation nor even a way of escape. What could have or should have saved them from their trap? (Message edited by jim02 on September 14, 2011) | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 1976 Registered: 6-2006  |
Stubbornness. Pride. Arrogance. Contstantly turning to, referring to, and pointing to the law. Ellen White, anyone? People who are stuck on the law cannot serve both the law and Christ at the same time. It's like trying to serve two masters. Jesus was clear on what was wrong with the Pharisees and the Sadducees. He was straight forward with them about what they needed to do, but their pride, stubbornness and arrogance got in the way. They are not the tragic heros in the story ~ but they should be a very valuable lesson. | ||
| Handmaiden Registered user Username: Handmaiden Post Number: 224 Registered: 7-2008 |
AMEN !!! That is exactly right, Leigh Anne  Jim, In all honestly the pharisees were not trying to do right. They did not have a heart that truly sought after God. When they met God in the flesh, they did not recognize Him, they did not receive Him....they plotted against Him and condemned Him. Why??? Because He did not make them look good. PRIDE The pharisees missed Jesus... Why?? Because in their pride and arrogance they looked into the Perfect, Holy, and Righteous Law of God and instead of being humbled and crying out woe is me i am undone...there is no way i can ever measure up to this... they said in pride and arrogance and self righteousness ... I CAN do this. Their puffed up prideful hearts deceived them into thinking they were righteous before God. But there is no righteousness in outward appearance. (clothes you wear, or jewelry you do or dont wear or food you do or dont eat or...) Jesus called them white washed sepulchers full of dead men's bones. Why were they dead... Because the law can at best clean up the outside but it cannot give life to men, who are dead in trespasses and sin. Jesus did not come to clean us up and make bad people good. He came to do what the law could never do, give us a new heart INSIDE and bring the dead to life. Jim, Dont make the same mistake and think that you can do any part of salvation, again it is God's work not yours. Leigh Anne is right, the Word says you cannot serve two masters. It is ALL of the Law every jot and tittle and none of Jesus or it is ALL of Jesus and none of the law. If you think you can keep the law in any way shape or form you are deceiving yourself and commiting the sin of the pharisee's and the sin of the devil, as well PRIDE. The law's job is to bring more sin and death. God's job is to raise us from the dead. Make us new creatures in Christ Jesus our Lord. After salvation it is stillllll not us but Christ in us the hope of glory. love handmaiden | ||
| Martinc Registered user Username: Martinc Post Number: 245 Registered: 9-2006 |
Right GraceAlone, we cannot serve two masters, and ultimately if we're serving the law, the real object of our adoration is ourselves. Jim, you raise a good point in making the Pharisees sympathetic characters in the story. They were generally sincere and zealous for the law. They also had a hunger for learning. How, then, can such good intentions lead them down the path of condemnation? How can the most sincere of us escape? The story in context begins to answer our frustration. The Pharisees' best intentions were corrupted by pride, which caused their blindness and deafness. They had followed Him around and seen many miracles, miracles that exactly fulfilled the prophets. Yet they wanted a greater sign of their choosing. It wasn't legalism alone that set them on their downward path; legalism was a symptom of deeper sickness. It wasn't their thirst for knowledge either, for as Paul said, their zeal was not according to knowledge. No, Isaiah (ch. 6) had said to their fathers that their hearts had grown dull so that they couldn't perceive, as Jesus quotes in Mt. 13. The problem, like GraceAlone said, was pride and "legal" idolatry. Pride kept them from understanding Isaiah 52 and 53, regarding the suffering Servant who is despised and rejected. They knew that passage, but their failure was in submitting to its humbling meanings. Jesus is the servant Isaiah was talking about, but He wasn't the kind of god the Pharisees wanted, because they lusted after another god that would glorify them. They knew the first commandment well, yet they were violating it. This blinded and deafened them to His glory, yet they were fully responsible for their hardness. So the answer is not in finding the right balance of ignorance vs. knowledge, or disengagement vs. engagement. It is our submission to Christ who is both suffering and dying servant who is wounded for our sins. Seeing Him, all our righteousness will appear for what it is, a mass of filth. Saving knowledge begins when we see and smell that filth for what it is. The legalist cannot see his condition until he can see himself in light of the Cross. There we won't find the kind of God we Pharisees want to worship. There is nothing in that scene that gives us new hope in making better, more sincere efforts. But we will see the one who was cursed as filth for us. Martin C | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 12960 Registered: 12-2003 |
Thank you, Martin. As long as we try to hang onto our identity, onto something familiar--as long as we pray wanting or expecting God to fix what we perceive to be wrong in our lives instead of allowing Him to show us what He wants to fix...we won't see HIM. Their "Messiah" wouldn't rebuke them, or disregard their laws, or correct them, or embarrass them. Their "Messiah" would champion them, take out the irreligious Roman oppressors and release God's people to their intended freedom and glory. their "messiah" would restore their prestige, give them autonomy, protect their identity and rightful "place". Their "messiah" would restore their prosperity and comfort; he would not perform "meaningless" miracles that didn't affect them, like water into wine, or healing an outcast leper, or making a life-long cripple walk, or upstaging them in the synagogue by healing ON THE SABBATH a man's withered hand. Jim, the Pharisees weren't trying to "get it right". They were trying to create a system, using God's law as their building blocks, that would vindicate them and bring them national and personal importance. They had created a messiah out of their own imagination, using the "proof text method", and when Jesus appeared, He simply didn't do for them what they thought the Messiah would do. He didn't have any appreciation at all for their punctilious religion...because they hid their own hearts behind their rigid code of behavior. But as Martin said, Jesus came and systematically fulfilled what the prophets said Messiah would do. It just didn't affect their own lives in the way they expected Him to do. They refused to believe, because they couldn't risk losing themselves by admitting they were completely wrong. Colleen | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1315 Registered: 5-2007 |
A lot to think about. | ||
| Rossbondreturns Registered user Username: Rossbondreturns Post Number: 251 Registered: 10-2009  |
It sure is Jim, but I know that you'll give it all the thought it needs. Just remember to put every thought and word expressed captive through the Holy Spirit so that you can know that what is being said is accurate and true. |
