| Author | Message | ||
| Rain Registered user Username: Rain Post Number: 4 Registered: 9-2011  |
Here we go for my first batch of questions: I understand that I am saved by faith. Reading John 5:24 as it was meant to be read was very revealing. However, as an Adventist I was taught to utterly reject “once saved always saved.” Is this idea true or not true? I honestly have no clue and even non-Adventists seem to debate about it. And on the subject of faith, Adventists would counter that “belief” is not enough since demons “believe” and look where they are. I feel that a belief that is more like a “trust” is meant there. Am I right? Furthermore, how does one explain James 2? Specifically where it talks about faith without works being dead. That seems to be another Adventist favorite. I also keep having the lingering doubt in the back of my mind that I’m going to do something to screw up my salvation. I’m seriously afraid of believing the wrong thing and ending up burning to a crisp because of it. I think that’s mostly uncertainty from having my Adventist world crumble. Over and over again Paul lists sins that seem to incur the “wrath of God,” as he puts it in Colossians 3:6. Revelation also has a list in 21:8. So, how does that all add up? What if someone believes but is, say, sexually immoral? I would be inclined to think that it means only non-believers, but Rev. 21:8 lists unbelieving with these other sins. Is belief enough, period? | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1306 Registered: 5-2007 |
Welcome Rain, Good questions. I wish I could answer with clarity even part of your questions. But I too have struggled with these same questions. Paul also lists the Fruits of the Spirit, and speaks of Living by The Spirit.I think that is the key to all these other things. I do not know myself why these admonitions and lists of people who will not inherent the kingdom are there. It seems to point one back to check list thinking. My hope clings to the fact that there are promises that we are covered by faith in Christ. He is our Righteousness. Jim | ||
| Psalm107v2 Registered user Username: Psalm107v2 Post Number: 838 Registered: 10-2008  |
Ah a deep-very deep topic. It's late here and I hate to just send a link but this will be some good reading/listening for you. 1 http://www.formeradventist.com/weekends/fafweekend2010.html scroll down to Saturday afternoon and Jon Rittenhouse---I have listened to this several times and keep it in my car 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0c1Q_4sqXRY (listen to the whole series) One point I'd like to make though is that Pastor Mark Martin taught me from the word of God and has revolutinized my life is that Romans 8:1 says there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. Romans 7 talks about how wretched we are as humans and do exactly the evil that we do not want to do i.e. we sin. But the "no" in no condemnation is not strong enough in the English language. that "no" means there is absolutely no chance, no possibility, of the death penalty for those in Christ. John 19:30---the debt--the death penalty has been paid in full. As for the old demons believe red herring---they believe in God because they were once in His presence but the do not have FAITH in God--don't let SDAs split hairs with you on words. Remember this is a church that will equivocate on the words-sabbath and law depending upon which Bible verse they are reading Enoch | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 2570 Registered: 5-2007  |
Rain, Welcome to the forum. You are asking some good questions which are similar to what I was asking as I was being led into the real gospel. Assurance of my salvation being a big issue. There came a time when the wonder of Romans chapter eight, after reading and re-reading it over and over finally sank in. The Rom. 8:1 is very good. Something to remember is that it is preceaded by chapter seven where Paul himself describes his struggle that parallels what you and I both were confronting. After years of thinking we had to do something to ‘get better and better’ what happens when we realize we aren’t ‘progressing’ like we think we should. Anyway, chapter seven ends with these verses before culminating with chapter eight:
Then chapter eight asks the rhetorical question, what can separate us from the love of God?
The truth of these verses didn’t penetrate quickly but there finally came a moment when I knew these words meant exactly what they seem to mean and it had nothing to do with what anyone, including myself, could do or not do for Jesus to keep his promise. For those sealed into the family of God there is nothing that can separate us from the love of God. Fearless Phil (Message edited by philharris on September 10, 2011) | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 2110 Registered: 7-2007 |
Hi Rain  Ephesians 2:8-9 (also 2nd Timothy 1:9 and Titus 3:5) says that the believer has been saved. If they weren't, then the Bible wouldn't say that. It would say that you would be saved if... 1st John 5:11-13 talks about the believer having eternal life. It wouldn't be eternal if it could be lost. We did nothing to earn it and we can do nothing to lose it. This is still mind-boggling to me! I've been out of the SDA church a little more than 6 years, but I'd been an SDA for over 50, so the doctrines had gotten deeply embedded. I think those verses are warnings for people "practicing" sinning - people who haven't accepted Jesus as their Savior. Unsaved people can't help but sin. That's all they CAN do! Saved people are in Christ, so their sin debt is taken care of. (Of course we still sin, but every sin; past, present and future has been forgiven. Also see 1st John 2:12 where the apostle in his letter that he wrote to the believers, said that their sins are forgiven.) | ||
| Jonvil Registered user Username: Jonvil Post Number: 636 Registered: 4-2007 |
It was not until I comprehended and accepted that salvation was ALL THE WORK OF GOD that I could truly rest in the assurance of salvation. It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I am foremost of all. 1 Timothy 1:15 (NASB) For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; Ephesians 2:8 (NASB) Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." John 6:29 (NASB) These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life. 1 John 5:13 (NASB) and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?" John 11:26 (NASB) "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. "I and the Father are one." John 10:27-30 (NASB) | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 2111 Registered: 7-2007 |
Oops, I forgot to address James 2 where it says that faith without works is dead. When a person gets saved, the Holy Spirit comes into them and starts His work. But there are people who only "say the prayer" or something just for "fire insurance" without meaning it, without their heart being in it. Such people have only said the words. That's all. What James is saying is that such people "talk the talk, without walking the walk." Those people give Christianity a bad name, because they go right back to whatever obvious sins they were doing before - whether living with their boyfriend/girlfriend, etc. (Nowadays though, Satan has added a whole new dimension to those hypocrites - the cults. At work, there's a man who would make a good poster boy for Mormonism; because he really acts like he "walks the walk." He acts like a Christian, even under stress at work. There are J.Witnesses and SDAs who act like Christians too. I feel especially bad for them, because Satan has removed the FREE GIFT of salvation from them by teaching them through their cults that they have to work for it. Since the people in the cults are "working" for salvation, they can never accept it because they cannot believe it's a free gift. All they'll ever be able to do is stand before God in their filthy rags, because it's either ALL Jesus or ALL us. I pray for such people, that they'll learn the truth about salvation.) | ||
| Skeeter Registered user Username: Skeeter Post Number: 1629 Registered: 12-2007  |
At church this morning someone made a statement that hit home with me "submission is not defeat, but righteousness" I don't remember much of what he said after that because that one statement kept rolling over in my mind. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 12941 Registered: 12-2003  |
Rain, I agree with all the comments above. Add this to the Romans 8:1 assurance: Romans 8:14-16:
I love how one person I know put it: saving faith comes with the assurance of salvation. The Holy Spirit who makes us alive is the One who testifies with our spirits that we are God's children. We can sin, give in to the flesh, after we are born again...but we will compromise our fellowship and responsiveness to God. Moreover, He doesn't let us get away with sinning once we are His...He convicts us and brings us back to repentance...but He doesn't leave us. The parable of the soils in Matthew 13 is helpful to me; there are people who appear to germinate gospel plants...but if we could see the who picture, we'd see that some do not put down roots, and others are being starved by the weeds of the world...and these never bear fruit, and they die. They were never true plants. Some people are responsive to the gospel, but they do not surrender the control of their lives to God. They do not allow the Lord Jesus to be their Master. They do not accept His blood for their sin. These people are not truly born again...but we can't see which people are these people. God knows... As for us, these things mean that when we become aware that God is prompting us to receive Jesus, to act in faith that His promises are true, to allow Him to be God over our lives...we must obey those promptings. It's not our "job" to figure out "how" it works. Our great responsibility after receiving Jesus is to learn to submit to Him, surrendering our doubts and fears to Him and allow Him to change us through His word which cannot fail. God's word is true, and His promises are unconditional. Absolutely unconditional. If we have placed our faith in Jesus and His sacrifice, all God's promises are Yes in Jesus to us. Colleen | ||
| Rain Registered user Username: Rain Post Number: 5 Registered: 9-2011 |
Thank you all for posting. I enjoyed reading your posts. They contain a lot of information. I'll have to find the time to study all of it deeply and watch those videos. Odds are I'll come back with a clarifying question or two when I've done that. There's kind of a heart vs. mind thing going on for me. I understand what I've read, but really understanding down to my heart is tougher when life's all been about being good. There are moments of clarity, then BOOM, back to the disorienting feeling that something's off. It kind of makes me afraid in that if I were to die right now at this very moment, would I be saved? In my transitioning period there seems to be trust that I'm having trouble grasping. A shift from self to Jesus. I understand, but my heart doesn't quite get it and that frightens me. I see lots of study and prayer in my future. | ||
| Handmaiden Registered user Username: Handmaiden Post Number: 220 Registered: 7-2008 |
Rain, Jesus knows your heart, He knows your thoughts and motives. He knows your worries and your fears and all of your struggles. He knows everything about you there is to know both good and bad, down the the number of hairs on your head. He is holding you. You are like a new born baby in your Father' arms. You can rest as you learn and grow. He has you and He will not drop you. He loves you so very, very much. You are very precious to Him. You can trust Him. He is so faithful and so very worthy of your trust. He will never leave you or forsake you. You are safe in the arms of Jesus. To know Him is to love Him. In His presence is fullness of joy. Only one thing is needful to sit at His feet and learn of Him. blessings handmaiden | ||
| Rain Registered user Username: Rain Post Number: 10 Registered: 9-2011 |
Thanks, Handmaiden. Your post was really heartwarming. I still don't understand James 2. I get the demons believing in God part, but the faith vs. works thing is still hard to understand. I'm trying to get to a point where I could refute the Adventist interpretation that this means following the Law is a follow-through of faith and continually breaking it is evidence of lack of faith. Asurprise said that some people say the prayer without meaning it, but what about the people who have the faith but are still sinning? I mean, honest-to-God heartfelt faith but are tripped up by a certain sin or two? | ||
| Thegoldenway Registered user Username: Thegoldenway Post Number: 156 Registered: 5-2011 |
There is a scripture that says.....'faith worketh by love'. Love is the expression of true faith. Love is something that demons do not have and can not exhibit. The love I'm talking here is the God love....His nature being demonstrated lived out thru us by the Holy Spirit. We are a partaker of His nature (which is love) thru the promises.... that's in Peter. We live by faith. By faith we are the Righteousness of God. I don't know if this makes any sense to anyone but it's actually something the Spirit revealed to me just recently. Cuz I too didn't really get what James 2 was really saying. Remember Jesus said 'they will know you are my disciples by your LOVE for one another.'? True faith is always coupled with love. They are two sides of the same coin so to speak. lynn |
