| Author | Message | ||
| Rossbondreturns Registered user Username: Rossbondreturns Post Number: 196 Registered: 10-2009  |
A Careful look at Revelation 3:10 Hope this is interesting to you and clears some things up...it sure helped me. Ross | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 7364 Registered: 9-2006  |
Very good Ross, when the subject of the rapture came up while I was in Adventist company they get almost openly hostile toward the idea. This idea offends them somehow and I can't explain why. As far as the rapture goes, I've been settled on the question in my mind many years. What I think is that the church will go through the outer edges of the wrath, because the Bible says in Peter I 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? Peter I 4:18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? Peter I 4:19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator. Or in other words the rapture will seem seamless as the wrath begins. Just a feeling or an opinion mind you, but an awful strong one. The judgement begins at the house of God, but it doesn't end with the house of God. I believe God will clean his church up and get the true Christian mind off the earth and looking to god instead of trying to build here. In the writing of the fictional story, 'The day time ran out' we follow four main characters as they come to realize they have been left on an earth that has suddenly become hostile at every turn. They paid no attention to the Bible while they could have. I hope this story makes many a person think. I pray for you, and your website as you bring the truth of scripture to many. River (Message edited by river on July 13, 2011) | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 2042 Registered: 10-2002  |
The problem is the assumption that Rev.3:10 is speaking to "the church" throughout all time and space, or even specifically in the time of the end. The context doesn't justify that approach. It's written to the church at Philadelphia (a city which, by the way, had a history of catastrophic earthquakes). Parallels to Rev.3:10 are found in Rev.14:13 and Isaiah 57:1-2. How God will be with His people during "tribulation" is in Psalm 91. About the pre-tribulation rapture itself, Scripture is actually really clear: http://fulfilledinjesus.blogspot.com/2011/05/one-rapture-at-one-trumpet.html | ||
| Rossbondreturns Registered user Username: Rossbondreturns Post Number: 198 Registered: 10-2009 |
I really don't know it seems very clear to me that Keeping from the time of Trouble means out of the time of trouble. And the Church are not anchored in the world but anchored in Christ. He promises that we're His Bride and not destined for wrath and He promises to come and take us to the Father's House so we can be with Him Where is He when He pours His wrath on the earth Dwellers...in Heaven...where are we...In Heaven. Our Wrath fell upon Christ on the Cross...there is no wrath destined for us anymore. Not to mention John 14:1-3 and it's promise which is Christ promising Him calling us out of this Earth before Wrath. (Message edited by RossBondReturns on July 13, 2011) | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 2043 Registered: 10-2002 |
By the way, I don't mean to do a hit-and-run here, but I won't be able to get back on here for awhile. If you have a question or anything, you can email me (fulfilledinjesus@yahoo.com) or look me up on Facebook (I'll have very limited time on the internet in the next two weeks)... I'm leaving in a few hours to spend two weeks in Fukushima helping out a church there and drawing pictures, especially for kids.  ...They aren't allowed to play outside so much to minimize the amount of radiation they get, since kids are more susceptible to radioactive iodine than adults. (The discerning student of the gospel may notice that the general principle behind this trip parallels the calling of the church during tribulation.) | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 2044 Registered: 10-2002 |
Hi Ross, Ok, I'm still packing, or need to go do that now. Last one before I run off to radiation-ville... Again, read things in context. The letters to the churches at the beginning of Revelation need to be read in context first before they are given eschatalogical meaning. Their primary meaning was to the churches that they were written to. Principles can then be extracted out for the universal church, but may not include things to-the-letter, so to speak. Think of the things that Paul wrote to the Corinthian church---we don't apply all of what he said to us today, do we? The situations they were in are not always the same as the ones we're in. We need to apply the same common sense hermeneutic to the letters written to the churches at the beginning of Revelation. Literally speaking, none of us live in the ancient city of Philadelphia, do we? The letter isn't written to the church-universal, but to the church in Philadelphia. Also, they were being persecuted by Jews (Jews only in name; not in God's sight, though). Have any of us been persecuted by Jews? Why do we try to apply the "saved from the time of trouble" part to us but then ignore the rest of the letter? The gospel tells us that our lives are secure in Christ, and we don't need to be afraid of losing our bodies. The gospel tells us that we are safe in Christ, so we have nothing to fear of getting hit by a meteor shower or falling asteroids, or getting killed in a tsunami generated by the impact, or any other calamity. God promised to protect us during the time of wrath (again, see Psalm 91). In a bizarre irony, most believers in the pre-trib rapture believe that God will protect His "144,000" during that time, but then if someone suggests that the church will still be on earth during that time, they think He's not able to protect the church??? Are numbers a problem for God? And again, does getting killed in the body equal being under God's wrath? I think our understanding of "wrath" needs to be more carefully examined and better-grounded in Scripture than this. Blessings and love to you in Jesus! No fear! Ramone | ||
| Rossbondreturns Registered user Username: Rossbondreturns Post Number: 199 Registered: 10-2009 |
Oh I have no fear believe me. But when you take John 14:1-3 which is talking about taking believers back to the father House. And Paul himself saying we are not destined for God's Wrath. Christ himself saying that the Church will be able to withstand the gates of Hell. And yet saying that those who believe in His name will be slaughtered in well uncountable numbers, by the earth dwellers and lovers of the Antichrist. His wrath comes on the earth dwellers during the Tribulation we were promised to be taken to the Father's House...we have to be taken before Tribulation...or we can't return with Him at His Glorious Appearing. Just saying. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 7368 Registered: 9-2006 |
I hear what you are saying Ross, and I'm with you. I guess time will tell whos wrong and who's right. Nothing like reality to teach us, is there? River | ||
| Rossbondreturns Registered user Username: Rossbondreturns Post Number: 200 Registered: 10-2009 |
Indeed. I'm simply stating what the Spirit has firmly convicted upon my heart. The Rapture looses any immanency if it comes after any of the Tribulation. Heck that disconnect from what Adventism taught and what the Spirit was instilling in my soul is part of the driving force that eventually jettisoned me out of Adventism. The math if you will was understandable, immanent must mean immanent. | ||
| Animal Registered user Username: Animal Post Number: 968 Registered: 7-2008  |
"As it was in the days of noah, so shall it be in the days of the comming of the Son of man." When the flood waters fell upon the earth, what happened to Noah and his family? Were they wisked away to heaven above?? I dont think so. Just something to add to this discussion. ...Animal | ||
| Loneviking Registered user Username: Loneviking Post Number: 799 Registered: 7-2000 |
I see two problems with the rapture and your belief Ross. The first is that there is no reason why Christs' church cannot remain on this earth without experiencing Gods' wrath. The Jews, on fleeing Egypt, escaped the destroying angels by having the blood of the lamb on their doorposts. We, in a similar fashion, have been sealed by the Holy Spirit through the waters of Baptism. God knows His own, and it's a pretty limited God who couldn't protect His own from His own wrath. And second, the Rapture position of 'taking the church out' is inconsistent. There is still a church on this earth during the tribulation. According to the Rapture theory, when the Rapture occurs those 'left behind' realize that they were wrong and many convert to Christ. Along with them, (in theory) are also 144,000 Jewish evangelists. So, why should this church after the Rapture go through the tribulation and experience Gods' wrath, while others do not? Are they not just as sealed? Are they not just as baptized? I'm with Agapetos on the interpretation of this text and church. The seven churches were the principal churches one would encounter in Asia Minor as you journeyed from the coast inland. The letter and instructions were to a physical church for that time. Even if one were to break the Christian era into different epochs symbolized by these churches (as Adventism does) then we are Laodicea and not Philadelphia. | ||
| Rossbondreturns Registered user Username: Rossbondreturns Post Number: 201 Registered: 10-2009 |
Ah but Animal we're not pictured in Noah and his family but Enoch. He was moved from Earth to Heaven w/o seeing death prior to the flood and its destruction. We are also pictured in Lot and his family who were removed from the location before the destruction. Since the location of the coming destruction is the entire earth we are promised not only removal from the location of the destruction but the time of the destruction on top of that. (Message edited by RossBondReturns on July 14, 2011) | ||
| Thegoldenway Registered user Username: Thegoldenway Post Number: 39 Registered: 5-2011 |
This is subject that I have been recently studying. Believe me I have so much more studying to do on this topic. But so far, I have noticed a couple of things. One is that when you take the parables of Jesus and the writings of the epistles and compare the passages that talk about the coming of Christ I have found that it seems to talk about an appearing that is sudden and unexpected and quickly over. Then there are the ones that talk about an appearing that isn't really sudden and it isn't quick and there are definite signs involved before this appearing happens. So I don't know. Right now in what I have studied so far I am inclined to see that there are two phases to the return of Christ. Phase one is when He comes to rapture the church and Phase two is at the end of the tribulation. What really pushed me over the edge in seeing it this way was what it says in Revelation 19. Vs 1 says "After this, I heard what sounded like a vast crowd in heaven shouting...." who is this crowd? And then in vs 7, 8 "For the time has come for the wedding feast of the Lamb, and His bride has prepared herself. SHE HAS BEEN GIVEN THE FINEST OF PURE WHITE LINEN TO WEAR FOR THE FINE LINEN REPRESENTS THE GOOD DEEDS OF GOD'S HOLY PEOPLE." Now in vs 14 it says "The armies of heaven DRESSED IN THE FINEST OF PURE WHITE LINEN FOLLOWED HIM ON WHITE HORSES." This is the same description used for the crowd in heaven and it appears that this crowd comes with Jesus back to earth to fight the nations of the earth and then the 1000 year reign on earth begins. So out of just this scene in Revelation I am seeing that the church must have been raptured and taken to heaven in order for them to be apart of the armies of heaven to return with Christ when He establishes His Kingdom on earth at the beginning of the 1000 years. It's funny I have read Revelation 100's of times and I never ever saw this before til I got out and disconnected with the SDA church. It is so plain I am amazed at how I wasn't able to see it before!! I'm still digging and learning. One thing tho, I have learned not to make a doctrine out of whether there is a rapture before the trib or afterwards. I know that the Holy Spirit is teaching and guiding all of us and He knows what each individual is able to understand and receive at this point in our experience. lynn | ||
| Rossbondreturns Registered user Username: Rossbondreturns Post Number: 202 Registered: 10-2009 |
I don't know Loneviking. I'm certainly not part of a Laodecian church. | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 2533 Registered: 5-2007  |
Facts to consider related to our opportunity to accept the gospel message of Jesus Christ before his return to this earth: 1. We are simply warned to keep watch because it will be at a moment when we least expect. 2. We are warned that ‘now is the day of our salvation’ because when we die that day is over. 3. Except for Enoch and Elijah, everybody has died or can expect to die if the Lord ‘delays’ his return. Only then is it to late to join the kingdom of God. 4. Our salvation centers on being ‘ready and watching’ for his return and nothing else. 5. Understanding when the church will be ruptured in relation to the sequence of tribulation events is pointless because all who repent of their sins and join the kingdom of God will be saved. 6. Only those who are still dead in their sins when our Lord and Savior returns to set up his eternal kingdom are the ones who no longer have opportunity to become saved. 7. When the Lord returns the tribulation is over. How this integrates with the rapture of the church as end time events unfold remains to be seen. Fearless Phil | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 7369 Registered: 9-2006 |
Quote: 4. Our salvation centers on being ‘ready and watching’ for his return and nothing else. Good statment's Phil, but what does it mean to us to be watching and ready? What does that mean to you? Does it mean to watch out for if we are taken in a fault at that instant he appears we lose heaven? That statement can have a wide range of meaning to different people. River | ||
| Mjcmcook Registered user Username: Mjcmcook Post Number: 31 Registered: 2-2011 |
After studying the "rapture" question for many years what it means to me~ is that the "rapture" of the church ~Christ's bride~ is our "Blessed HOPE"~ It seems to me that sda's have such a problem with this because they believe in soul sleep & the investigative judgment~ these beliefs do not square with the rapture belief~ ~Just my thoughts on the subject~ ~*~mj~*~ | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 2534 Registered: 5-2007 |
River, I am just attempting to lay out some known facts and leave the conclusion of how all this fits together for someone smarter than me. What it does say to me (point #4), first and foremost, is that Jesus was speaking to those who have been saved and have a joyful reason to look forward to his return. Jesus is assuring us that even though his return seems long delayed, to not give up on our hope because the Father knows the right time and it will be the best of times. I am looking at it from an understanding of eternal security. There are several ways to fit all scripture into the 'big picture' but not being a theologian, I would rather not offer my own ideas at this point except to say that the rapture of the church and the Lord's return we are to be ready and watching for just might be two different events separated by a period of time. I am not saying it is, only that it is a possibility. Ok, I've just entered into a possible theological quagmire here so one or more of my dear brothers and sisters who have other insights might just want to throw me a ‘scriptural lifeline’. Fearless Phil (Message edited by philharris on July 14, 2011) | ||
| Rossbondreturns Registered user Username: Rossbondreturns Post Number: 203 Registered: 10-2009 |
Well Phil, here's how I look at things. "As it was in the days of noah, so shall it be in the days of the coming of the Son of man." As Animal mentioned, it shall be as it was in the days of Noah when Christ returns for His Church. Basically meaning everyone will be doing normal everyday things...not to mention ridiculing those saying His coming is near. Of course once once the Tribulation starts things will NOT be as they were at the time of Noah. Things will be going from bad to worse. And the Church can't come back as the Bride and Army of Christ at the Glorious Appearing if it hasn't been taken up to Heaven. So we are taken unexpectedly. And then God's Wrath floods the earth. And then we return with our God and Savior Jesus Christ at the end of the Tribulation period. This also makes sense of the Bema Seat of Christ and the Marriage Supper of the Lamb which both take place in Heaven before the Glorious Appearing. | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 2535 Registered: 5-2007 |
Ross, I actually view it pretty much as you. However, keep in mind that the 144,000 (Jewish) evangelists are preaching the gospel during the tribulation and will also be at the marriage supper of the Lamb which implies that they are saved members of the kingdom of God after the church has been ruptured. Since the gospel is being preached it follows that there will be others who come into the kingdom of God due to their preaching. And, we should not forget that the Old Covenant saints have already joined the kingdom of God prior to the New Covenant. So where does all this fit into the really big picture? All I am attempting to do here is point out that just maybe none of us are seeing this from God’s vantage point! Remember, the one thing we are told to do is KEEP WATCH! God isn’t saying we have to understand all the details, only that we are to trust him and believe he is returning. Fearless Phil |
