| Author | Message | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1196 Registered: 5-2007 |
My question here is narrow because it is part of the dissonance I am having regarding eternal life in hell. Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.” Revelation 22:14 “Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. Revelation 22:19 And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll. Considering the above three scriptures. How do you come up with the idea of eternal life in Hell for those who are not saved? There is no tree of life in hell. | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 2489 Registered: 5-2007  |
Jim, Nobody I know of is saying spending eternity in The Lake of Fire prepared for the devil and his evil angels has anything to do with having ‘eternal life’? Fearless Phil | ||
| Free2dance Registered user Username: Free2dance Post Number: 353 Registered: 2-2010 |
Hi Jim, I posted several passages of scripture to answer your question and decided you probably know all of those so instead I just wonder if I can ask you a question. What if Hell *is* real? What if Hell *is* eternal punishment? Would you walk away from God? That was the question I finally had to face. I was reading Romans 9 today and I came across this passage on election. It is hard to swollow if scripture must fit our understanding of God, but it is a teaching passage if we are open to allow the word of God reveal God. Paul is talking about election, and he just discussed the fact that God hardened Pharos heart for His purposes. Then Paul throws out the obvious question of, "is God fair?" : "Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath PREPARED FOR DESTRUCTION, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?" This is a difficult passage... it just keeps coming down to, "what do I believe about the word of God? Is it inspired truth or not?" God is a loving God who did not have to reveal Himself to us. He is not trying to make this hard. Scripture is clear. We are the ones who bring the fog to the texts with our presuppositions and personal needs. What if Hell is real? What does that mean about your desire to know this God? Do you say forget it and walk away, or do you allow Him to pursue you and see what exactly He longs to do with you? You must know He loves you... | ||
| Skeeter Registered user Username: Skeeter Post Number: 1474 Registered: 12-2007 |
Jim, I often argue with myself over this one also. If Hell is "forever, through all eternity, and Heaven is also forever, through all eternity.... I guess in hell it cant be a "life" worth living... but if there are those who will eternally be in torment and conscious of that torment (if not conscious, there is no purpose of it being eternal) but eternal is eternal if in heaven or if in hell,,, and if it is a conscious punishment, then it is still a form of "eternal life". ??? | ||
| Animal Registered user Username: Animal Post Number: 961 Registered: 7-2008  |
maybe we need a definition for the words "eternal" and "life"? | ||
| Free2dance Registered user Username: Free2dance Post Number: 354 Registered: 2-2010 |
It is important to remember that scripture talks of life and death in more than one way here. Life being physical and spiritual, death being physical and spiritual. In scripture we can be: Physically alive & Spiritually "dead" Physically dead & Spiritually "alive" Physically alive & Spiritually "alive" Pysically dead & Spiritually "dead" If we are born physically alive and spiritually "dead" and yet still exist somehow, then why is it hard to believe that we can be physically dead & spiritually "dead" and still exist somehow? The Adventist argument for the Tree of Life being proof that there is not eternal hell tells on their misunderstanding of the nature of the spirit of man. | ||
| Animal Registered user Username: Animal Post Number: 963 Registered: 7-2008 |
To Me.... Hell is being locked in a room with my hands tied up and unable to partake of a bag of popcorn and a bottle of root beer sitting on a table in the middle of the room. Such a scenario would be unbearable....sigh Animal | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 2491 Registered: 5-2007 |
I would also contend that having 'existance' and having 'life' are two different things. For instance, when we are physically born we are born with a dead spirit. However, dead or not, it does exist. When we die a natural physical death, for a time at least, the body still exists even though the soul and spirit have departed. So, if the body dies and your spirit never had life but their is still a soul, wouldn't it be right to say the soul has existance even if the body and spirit do not have life? Eternal life centers on our hope in the ressurection where our soul and spirit join a new body. This event is our assured hope of eternal life. Fearless Phil | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 2492 Registered: 5-2007 |
Animal, For you a chilled glass with frost on it and filled with draft root beer. You can see it across a busy freeway with no way to cross before Miss Piggy drinks it for you. For you that would be hell. Fearless Phil | ||
| Animal Registered user Username: Animal Post Number: 964 Registered: 7-2008 |
what is a "soul"?? | ||
| Skeeter Registered user Username: Skeeter Post Number: 1476 Registered: 12-2007 |
"what is a "soul"?? Well, I dont know if this is theologically correct... but to me a "soul" is that part of us that feels a deep connection to God and allows us to be able to communicate with Him with or without words. | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1199 Registered: 5-2007 |
Free2dance, You wrote: What if Hell *is* real? What if Hell *is* eternal punishment? Would you walk away from God? J: I am not sure that I can answer that question in my own strength. What I can say is, if after all that I have read about the nature of God, what I have seen in the actions of Christ and His tender ministry, after fathoming but a portion of the Love of God that has been made manifest to our human understanding, from what my human mind is capable of reasoning, percieving, relationaly and intuitively sensing, what I am painted into a corner "IF" I were to accept this concept of eternally actively punishing hell , then my perception of God becomes bizarre, and I cannot concieve of such a contradiction to the concept of Love which God is. It is not that I would walk away from God, it is rather, a belief such as this would undermine and destroy any concept of Love as I understand, experience or Spiritually comprehend it. It would be it's own insanity. This is what I do not understand here. Everyone is stressing accepting God's word for just what it says and they are willing to accept it no matter how illogical or extreme it may be. I understand the concept of trust when we have no idea why a thing is to be , or a truth that we cannot comprehend. But this is different. This is the essence of a paradox that turns the concept of love inside out. F: Then Paul throws out the obvious question of, "is God fair?" : "Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath PREPARED FOR DESTRUCTION, J: I cannot answer this. Not in this context. This is right up there with, third and forth generations suffering from the effects of the sins of their fathers. There is injustice all over the world. WE humans cause most of it ourselves. What we do often affects the innocent. That God may make an example or use a person in such a way is beyond my reasoning. God is in control. F: Is it inspired truth or not?" God is a loving God who did not have to reveal Himself to us. He is not trying to make this hard. Scripture is clear. We are the ones who bring the fog to the texts with our presuppositions and personal needs. J: Good point. I am convinced that the teaching that Hell is eternally ongoing, or that souls will actively continously eternaly burn is a mistake of interpretation. Pick your own possibility: Contextual error, translation usage error, language style error, language usuage in ancient times compared to modern day usages, transcribing errors or editing, interpretational error, fragmented or misapplied theology........I do not know what the answer is , but I honestly believe this is a theological error. There are other passages that suggest a finality. These are ignored. I have read all this over and over and it is not a matter of not trusting God. It is knowing in my mind and soul that this is not correct. F: What if Hell is real? What does that mean about your desire to know this God? Do you say forget it and walk away, or do you allow Him to pursue you and see what exactly He longs to do with you? You must know He loves you... J: I am not walking away from God. God knows I desire to Love Him more every day. I trust God. I do not trust this teaching. | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1200 Registered: 5-2007 |
Skeeter, Free2dance, I view hell as a final result for the lost. Simplicity is usually the right conclusion. Comparing the metaphores and analogys between the concepts of Spirtually dead, Physically dead all have their place. But in the plain reality of hell. Neither root nor stubble is left. Hell , the lake of fire , it is final, it takes place on earth. At the end, at the second resuurection of the dammned. The second ressurection has no power (no life, no imortality). When they are cast into the fire, they will be no more, and the punishment is conclusive, permanent and in that sense eternal. In the same place , earth, the lake of fire will finally be gone, and on theis same Earth, the world will be made new again. There will be no more suferring or death, no tears, anywhere. The old order will be passed away. Plain and simple. | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1201 Registered: 5-2007 |
Animal, I too keep going after definitions. But that is half or even less than half of the equation. It is usage at the time it was written, the style , the art of the language, it's context and intended meaning. I have ascribed to basing my theology on the scriptures and I still do. Buy the more I study, the more I see all the assorted possible view points. They cannot all be correct at the same time. I respect each persons best effort at their beliefs. But as history has shown , error is common to man. I cannot think of any verifiable test one can prove anything to another. That is why we have faith and that is why there are so many religions. | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 1810 Registered: 3-2009 |
Amen! Jim2 Hec | ||
| Free2dance Registered user Username: Free2dance Post Number: 359 Registered: 2-2010 |
You know what I love? I love the fact that we can ask and discuss and disagree on these tough questions all while knowing it has no impact on our salvation.  Jim, I understand where you are at on this. It's a tough topic. I think possibly when it comes down to it there will be no one who says, "I knew it! It was just as I expected!" Maybe I am wrong, but hell is described so many ways in scripture I think it is beyond us and that is ok. I just had to come to the place where I had to be ok with the idea that Hell can be whatever God needs it to be for however long He needs it to be because He totally knows more than I do and He is ALWAYS good and ALWAYS just. One comment on something you said. "...and on this same Earth, the world will be made new again." I don't know because I have not studied this on my own, but my understanding is that the word used in greek for "new" is not defined as "same but better". It will be completely different. For example it could be flat rather then sephere in shape with different laws and dimentions. It is new in the sense that it will be "other". In other words, it's not like having a Honda and getting a new Honda, it is like having a Honda and getting a new means of transportation like a fighter jet. This makes sense when you consider the fact that we will be in our glorified state which has far more dimentions than our world. I thought this was an interesting teaching and have been meaning to look into this word in greek. Again, it's only hear say at this point. | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1203 Registered: 5-2007 |
Free2dance, I agree that we can only see the edges of truth in some things, and that an abiding trust in God is enough to carry us through our journey. I try to remind myself not to get hung up on these things. I think the reason it keeps coming back is that I am attempting to relate and find where I can fit in towards fellowship somewhere, somehow. Every potential approach presents many positions I have to digest in some way. Simply just going to a new church at random seems haphazard to me. I am attracted to a few faith systems , except this Hell teaching creates unreality for me. If I approach in the key of love, relating to others, relating to God in that key and then I open this door called eternal hell, all of a sudden, love is turned inside out. How do I trust a mindset that says torture forever is ok? This is not walking away, it is trying to work with something that I unable to rationalize as an acceptable description of love . This is one of main reasons I am still not connecting. I have prayed a thousand prayers to be led out of this confusion and into fellowship. I do not know how to escape this maze. | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1204 Registered: 5-2007 |
About the new earth. For sure there are big surprises in store. We cannot even imagine some of them. It even mentions nations. I think about the size and height of the City. It will be so huge that it will project into space itself. There will be no more oceans. My impression is that this earth will be cleansed by fire, that the mantle will be disolved and the surface reformed as a clean slate. No trace will be left of the old order of man or sin. As to whether it will remain a sphere, never thought of that. Anything is possible. Continous day by the light and Glory of God. That has me wondering if we will be removed from our present solar system. That huge meteror storm during the plagues may knock earth out of it's present orbit ? I wonder about activity,work, gardening, eating, love, family. What will be the order of things on the new earth? Will we travel, building vessels or not even need them? | ||
| Free2dance Registered user Username: Free2dance Post Number: 360 Registered: 2-2010 |
Jim, I want to share something that has been a part of my walk lately. Take it for what it's worth, I'm not claiming this to be truth, it's just what has helped me when thinking about Gods sovereignty and hell. OK, love was pretty much what I longed for the most when God was drawing me to His Son. When I accepted the truth of Christ and the gospel of our Salvation, oh boy did I come to know His amazing love. However, as I have studied scripture and experienced different aspects of Gods work in me, I have a very different understanding of love than I used to. This process has had some difficult moments for sure. There were times where I felt placed outside of Gods love and I had no idea how to get back in. Now, however, I know that was never the case. I was only experiencing a different facet of His love. My understanding of Gods love really has evolved and my understanding about the role of His love in my life has expanded and exploded. "God is love" is definitely in the Bible. However, this is not the only or even most frequent term used to describe Him. My husband pointed out last night that the thing God longed for from His people in the OT was that they fear Him. "Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom." (see Psalm 11:10, Proberbs 1:7, 9:10) There are many words used to describe God, words that in our 2011 pop-culture understanding of "love" would seem to create a paradox. However, God is the ultimate reality and the one who should be our source for reality and definer of what is pure and true. God is Love God is Holy God is Perfect God is Good God is Just God is sovereign God is Jealous God is to be feared God is a God of wrath God is merciful God is gracious God both Loves and Hates He demands and provides He expects and fulfills His expectations for us... How can God be both love and and God of wrath? How can God be just and merciful? How can God be good and jealous? How can we even begin to understand God? Hell is not the opposite of love. These two things can co-exist. Here is another question for you. Why is it easier to believe that God would burn and torture people alive for a definite period of time than to believe that he might throw our immaterial (therefore inflammable) spirits to utter darkness away from the presence of God? Whatever hell is...it is horrible. If God is going to be the peace corp, fluffy, lovey, Barney the Dinosaur type, then why wouldn't He just speak people out of existance instead of burn them at all? Eve questioning Gods character on the basis of her not understanding something about Him is what got us into the whole mess. I am not saying we are obligated to have faith in mans ideas and interpretation of scripture, but we are certainly called to have faith in what God says. It is also important to remember that there is a reason that God gave teaching as one of the gifts of the Spirit. If you believe in Spiritual gifts and the Holy Spirits teaching and illumination in our lives, than simply pray that God lead you to someone with this gift that you are willing and able to learn from and for His illumination to help you both see and deeply know what is true. Whatever Hell is, it is not peaceful or lovey. God's ways are above our ways. At some point, we have to let go of our need to hold onto what is "normal" to us or what has held our "reality" together. We have to let God be God- whatever that looks like as described in scripture- and believe that when Jesus talks about fire, hell, utter darkness, or weeping and gnashing of teeth we take the warning and leave it there. So what if people worshiping beside you have different ideas of hell...they are still your brothers and sisters in Christ. If you think they have it wrong, be sad for them- but don't reject them. They need your love as much as you need theirs. Sorry if I've said too much. (Message edited by free2dance on July 02, 2011) | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1207 Registered: 5-2007 |
Frre2dance, You have not said too much. Let me absorb this awhile. Thank you for expressing these thoughts. Jim |
