| Author | Message | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 1143 Registered: 10-2008 |
I just came across this advertisement sent by my local Christian bookstore. It is a book that is just coming out by Francis Chan. He has put a short video together and that is what I watched. http://www.parable.com/parable/item.Erasing-Hell-What-God-Said-about-Eternity-and-the-Things-We.9780781407250.htm I have not read the book, but I really liked the way this author presented his opening statements. We are the clay not the Potter. His thoughts are higher than ours. Let scripture speak for itself ... Just wanted to share as I know that Adventists have the same understanding of hell as Jehovah Witnesses. I gather this author attempts to let scripture speak and the reader draws their own conclusion. I hope to get the book. JRT | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 2500 Registered: 5-2007  |
Jrt, Just watched the video and I say amen to your thoughts. So, are my thoughts anyway near to being what God's thoughts are? One thing I know is that without the indwelling and leading of the Holy Spirit it would not be possible for my thinking be a reflection of what God thinks. Where ever I am in my life, as we are reminded by God, I am the clay and not the potter. When I get up from this desk and go about my day...what does that mean? Fearless (not always) Phil | ||
| Joyfulheart Registered user Username: Joyfulheart Post Number: 847 Registered: 10-2006 |
Jrt, This has to be one of the most refreshing profound videos I have seen in a long time. This man is after truth alone. I so appreciated the things he said about making God subservient to what I think He should be or do when His ways are so much higher than my ways. I love that this man reinforced that we ought to approach the Bible with utter humility. This is a must watch for every believer. I'm going to pass this link around widely. He is right when he says that this is not a topic we can afford to be wrong about when eternity is at stake! Thanks so much Jrt! I needed this today! Patty | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 12726 Registered: 12-2003  |
Wow. I just watched the video. Powerful, and amen to your thoughts, Jrt and Phil. Phil—I ponder that same question. I have to give up everything I think and value for the sake of allowing the Lord Jesus to be all I need, and I need Him to teach me truth and reality from His word and by jerking my thoughts back to truth when I feel threatened or frantic. He has to hold me or I'd fall apart. He has to teach me or I'll never do what He wants me to do. A good friend of ours died just over a week ago. He was a former Adventist, and he spent the last ten or so years of his life learning to let go of himself for the sake of the Kingdom of God. Richard and I talked to him for over two hours just over a week before he died. He agreed to let us record him talking about having faced death as an unbeliever—a lapsed Adventist, and now as a born again believer. I've been working today on transcribing our conversation; excerpts from his words will be used at his memorial service later this week, and we will use a larger version of it for Proclamation, so I'm actually working on two projects at once! But our friend's analysis of his Adventist family's inability to "get it" is so apt, and Francis Chan's video made me think of that. I'll share his words, just as they are on the recording, about what it means to meet and be changed by Jesus:
I love how he said that: when you get that kind of impact by Christ, you're never the same...you're annihilated [meaning you yourself are forever gone and a new you comes] or you're "incorporated". Isn't that a great way to describe being born again? "Incorporated" into Christ... And just FYI--this man believed in hell. His reference to annihilation above was not about his former belief; he was referring to losing oneself when he knows Jesus. The reason we do this ministry is that so many of our Adventist loved ones really are headed for hell...and they have no idea. Colleen | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 7314 Registered: 9-2006  |
I know John Mcconnell and I,ve heard many of his little stories. The thing is, many of them are doctrinally and Biblicaly wrong. For instance one of his last illustrations was on the state of the dead, and he thought perhaps God has some kind of super computer to put our information back together again and he stores that info on some kind of giant hard drive. I don't know whether I should have said this or not on the discussion part of the forum at least. What I said it for was to say this, I believe Colleens right, and I know there are a lot of people will disagree with her or me. A lot of people have called me judgmental, but its not so. I doubt Colleen has escaped unscathed either, I do know this, if you stand on the wall, there is an enemy just beyond that wall. if I've said too much or screwed up again, then Colleen can call me down and I won't fault her. But I believe in my heart, the holy Spirit being my witness that many of my Adventist friends are headed for hell and it had grieved my heart for them. I like John McConnell a lot, I haven,t heard from him in a couple years, he may have passed on already, then there are so many more names I could mention, but I won't and what about their families. Its a shaking and sobering thought when they line up and troop across my mind. This post just reminded me why I'm here today. Thank you for having the nerve to say it Colleen. River | ||
| Doc Registered user Username: Doc Post Number: 676 Registered: 2-2003  |
Thanks for posting that clip JRT Adrian | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 1144 Registered: 10-2008 |
Phil, The indwelling Holy Spirit leads us to truth. Without Him we could not understand scripture. I like what you said. For me, the Bible is like a brand new book. I had read the Bible through over 5 times before I was born again. Now it is like reading it for the first time. I believe the Word is living - it is not just black and white words on paper. Before being born again, reading scripture was like walking in deep mud ... I struggled to put my thoughts together as I read. Now I submit my mind to the Word and I am transformed - I don't try to make scripture say what I want it to ... Don't know if any of this makes sense ... When it comes to leaving Adventism, we must ask God for discernment when reading scripture and then submit our minds to what scripture says - even though it may jostle our previous understanding. Jrt | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 2505 Registered: 5-2007 |
Jrt, I love what you just shared. One thing I might mention is that Adventist are a long way from being the only ones who attempt to make scripture mean what they want it to mean. Fearless Phil | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 1811 Registered: 3-2009 |
River: would you aree that many Baptists, Lutheran and others are also headed to hell? Hec | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 2850 Registered: 8-2004  |
Seems to me that many SDAs are led astray by the teachings of Adventism itself. The lost "Baptists, Lutherans and others" would be more likely lost by NOT taking firm hold of the teachings of their church. Adventism teaches "Jesus plus" Baptist and Lutheran Churches teach "Salvation by Grace Alone" | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 7318 Registered: 9-2006 |
Hec, my thinking at the time I made that statement wasn't concerned with any other beside the cult of Adventism. I was honest in my thinking and I was honest in my statement. Let that be enough. River | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 1959 Registered: 6-2006  |
Hec, Do you believe that all churches are the same and teach the same thing about Jesus, Salvation, etc? That's what your question leads me to believe. Leigh Anne | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 1975 Registered: 7-2007 |
Hec; anyone who has not accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior is headed to hell. There are a lot of people in all denominations, including real Christian denominations, that are Christian in name only and haven't accepted Jesus as their Savior. In the Adventist church though, members who believe the SDA doctrines aren't allowed to accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior. Let me explain. They may think that they have accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior because they believe the SDA doctrine that it's Jesus' power in their lives that pushes the sin out and they have to let Him in or at least His power, in order for that to be accomplished. They haven't really accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior though, because, according to the doctrine, it's partly up to them. They have to continue to let Jesus' power push the sin out and if they give up on pushing out a particular sin, they will be lost. Ellen White said that any sin a person doesn't overcome will overcome them and work out their destruction. By contrast, in a Christian's life, the Holy Spirit is dwelling within and He is the One Who is pushing the sin out. The believer isn't saved by this work of the Holy Spirit though, because he/she WAS SAVED the instant he/she accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior. They stay saved, no matter what. God holds onto them and their sins, past present and future have been forgiven! | ||
| Mkfound Registered user Username: Mkfound Post Number: 103 Registered: 1-2011 |
Don't know if I've mentioned this on this forum before, but one thing that I came to realize months after leaving Adventism was this: In Adventism, I had pretty much ACCEPTED that I was going to hell. Or maybe--resigned myself that I was going there. (This was due to all the EGW I had heard and was reading, e.g. if you don't confess each and every sin, 1 in 20 will be saved, whole churches and conferences will be lost, visions about the very steep path, which people fell off of, etc.) I know that not every SDA's situation is the same as mine, but just think about this. Here I was, calling myself a Christian, and not having enough hope to believe that I'd be saved, thinking it a 1 in a million chance, and resigning myself to hell. It boggles my mind now that I was almost OK with it. I just hoped I hadn't done TOO many bad things, and that I'd burn up pretty quickly. Yes, true thoughts of mine. But now, months later, this is the thought that came to my mind. Just imagine if, I continued life, in my sins, having no hope in God to save me, resigning myself to hell, trying to be as good as possible still, because that's what we're told to do--and then winding up in hell, and saying to myself, 'Wow, this place is lasting a whole lot longer than I thought it would... hmm, wonder why that is.' I know some of you are still struggling with the eternal concept of hell. I understand that--I still am too. But look at it from this perspective. Wouldn't that just be a 'good trick' to pull on people? Tell them that they will be annihilated, only be there for a little while, remove all possible hope through the poison pen of EGW, take weight away from Jesus' words that warn about this terrible place because of belief in EGW, and then FINALLY, get people to accept that they are going there, thinking they're going in eyes wide open. But alas, no, they've been fooled by these things: 1) Jesus' atonement for us: nah, not a really big deal, you still have to do your own part, so God didn't do a big thing for you there. Instead of awe at God's sacrifice, you have a burden for the below 2) Your own works: yep--you need those big time, in fact, you must become perfect in order to stand before God at the time of end--without a mediator. Now, good luck with fulfilling the endless list of works neatly spelled out by EGW, as well as the law written in the Bible. 3) Hell: Don't worry too much about that place. You see, you as an SDA have a wonderful prophet who is able to tell you the REAL truth about this bad place. You see, it's not as bad as the lies that are being told in the other Christian churches. Pat yourself on the back there, for knowing the TRUTH about hell. 4) Grace: check that at the door, the LAW is the most important thing, you see, it is how God showed us his character. So if you want to be like God, you must obey the law, fully in order to be saved. Just ignore those fancy verses there in Romans about not boasting about being saved. 5) Assurance: You can not have that--it is a sin to say you are saved. Remember that verse in the Bible--those who say 'Lord, Lord, but I do not know them'. You see--you can never know you are saved, in fact, don't even think about mentioning it, or even thinking it. Oh, wait, you will never have assurance based on what has been told to you above, but just in case you ever decided to get that bold, here's the caveat: never say you are saved. Sorry for my sarcasm there, but what I see is simply a cheapening of everything that God did, undermining of the consequences of not believing in God's completed work, too much focus on what we can do, when in fact, everything we can do is 'filthy rags'. Now, mix that all together, and hopelessness results. And the worst part is this: the hopelessness that comes about, because of this tampering with true doctrines, even seems RIGHT. So right that Adventists will argue with you night and day, about their right to believe in hopelessness. They (or I when I used to be SDA) would tell us that we have cheap grace, that we don't love God because we don't keep his commandments, that we don't have the truth about hell, etc. etc. The hopelessness just ties you up and doesn't want to let them go. It gets them to defend the hopelessness and call it truth. I know how I used to think, and only God took me out of this utter hopelessness. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 7323 Registered: 9-2006 |
Well..I for one didn't see that as sarcasm since you were describing the reality of it. What do people think when God said this is my Son, hear him! That it was some kind of big cosmic joke? Some people would accuse me, as well as Colleen for saying what we said as being judgmental, but I approach this subject soberly, humbly, even fearfully with the realization and a prayer on my lips of , "Oh God, save them before its too late." Their eternal destiny is at stake here and I'm not about to go into it with a judgmental attitude.Yeah, I get aggravated, I even get sarcastic, but it is the result of frustration and nothing else. I'll lay you a dollar to a doe nut that there is not a one on this forum that hasn't been so frustrated they want to pull their hair out. I've been accused of being hateful, judgmental, so many times it doesn't phase me any more than a needle prick on the finger. River | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 1194 Registered: 7-2004  |
Just bought this book yesterday and read it today. It's definitely a great book and just as powerful as the video. Here's a quote I especially liked (can't remember if it was in the video too):
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| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 12901 Registered: 12-2003 |
Excellent quote, Raven. That part about erasing God's plan of punishment because it doesn't sit well with us...that is SO frustrating. It is the reaction of natural man to eternal purposes of God. We desperately want to reduce God's reality to something that makes sense to us inside of time. Colleen | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 1603 Registered: 7-2003  |
I've said it before, but it bears repeating: In any conversation with someone who takes an annihilationist view point, their argument will hinge not so much on a straight forward reading of scripture, but on their opinion of who God should be and how He should act. Oh sure, there are a few versus that are sometimes employed to support annihilationism. However, the only reason they are read that way, in contradiction to the rest of scripture, is because of a preconceived notion by the reader regarding the god they would personally like to worship. The conversation is seldom truly biblicaly focused, because for the annihilationist it can't be. The annihilationist argument must be emotion based because it is so difficult to make a strong case for it from scripture alone. | ||
| Mjcmcook Registered user Username: Mjcmcook Post Number: 119 Registered: 2-2011 |
~Thank-you for this post, jrt~ I just finished listening to the video~ I found no problem at all in agreeing with the author~I would like to send the clip to my adventist friends~hoping that some how they will listen with a 'clean ear' free from 'egw'~! ~mj~ | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 12905 Registered: 12-2003 |
Chris, yes. I agree with your assessment above. Colleen |
