| Author | Message | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1197 Registered: 5-2007 |
I have been hearing a program on the radio this week recounting the severity of the flood during the time of Noah. One of my struggles with the idea of being saved is that I look at other records or passages in scripture that make it pretty obvious, being truly saved is actually a minority number at best. In Noah's time, out of the whole earth's population and decades of preaching, only 8 were saved alive. That means 99.9999999...% were lost. Matthew 7:13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. Not exactly reassuring to assume salvation is an event on a checklist. Once saved always saved is something I have not been able to grasp in light of this and other admonitions. Matthew 7:14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it. If this is true. 7:14 , then how is it , I can assume I am saved? If only a few find it and I see millions accepting Christ. I begin to worry that it is so easy that is possibly non genuine salvation. This ofcourse leads back to trying to determine what salvation is and what are the tests, which leads to even more speculation. What I have seen in the tenor of the SDA belief system is a stance that salvation is a steady work to stay in the state of grace. If we backslide and fall away, we can be grafted back out of the vine. How do we rectify the drastic losses of Noahs, time and what we are warned of; Matthew 24:37-39 37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. It seems to me that the majority losses will still apply. | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 2488 Registered: 5-2007  |
Jim, Just for the record, who said, according to the biblical record, there was any preaching occuring during the time leading up to the flood? But yes you are right, most people died as only eight were saved in the ark. However, don't ignore that many who had already died could very well have been saved because of their faith in what God promised Adam and Eve. Fearless Phil | ||
| Animal Registered user Username: Animal Post Number: 960 Registered: 7-2008  |
Doesnt scripture say that...Many are called and few are chosen? | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 2490 Registered: 5-2007 |
Animal, That expression come from a parable of Jesus' found in Matt. 22:1-14. But notice that it is best translated ‘invited’ not ‘called’.
Fearless Phil | ||
| Animal Registered user Username: Animal Post Number: 962 Registered: 7-2008 |
I like that translation better...thanks. | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1198 Registered: 5-2007 |
Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked faithfully with God. You are right Phil. Evidently, there was no preaching. Another assumption and another reminder, don't take a single word for granted no matter who is speaking it. Thus, most of the Noah story is filled in assumptions. Let's assume the people asked questions about the ark. Let's assume it did not make any difference. It appears that God had already decided to wipe out mankind except for Noah. So how does that fare with our time, as it was in the day of Noah........... Many are called, few are chosen. Back to the potter and the clay. | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 2493 Registered: 5-2007 |
Jim, Let us not an error in the other direction. I am only saying the bible doesn't mention preaching. I recently came across an Ellen White quote where she says that and turned to scripture to see if it was so according to God's word only to find nothing stated. This doesn't mean nobody was preaching. Only that we are not told. Fearless Phil | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 1958 Registered: 6-2006  |
This is what I'm learning from this thread. Always make it a habit to look up scripture for yourself. Remember, Ellen White changed some of Noah's story around (as well as the whole rest of the Bible) and to this day, many SDAs and formers are confused as to what really happened (until, of course) they read the verse themselves. If you read all of Genesis 6, you'll see in context that the point wasn't that God was simply wiping out all of mankind, but he was wiping out the evil in mankind as well as what it brought to the earth. He decided to make a new covenant by saving Noah (and his family) as well as the animals to populate the earth again. (If the Lord really wanted to "wipe out mankind", he would have included Noah, his family and the animals.) So here's the bright side. God chose Noah (and his family!) and Noah trusted God. There's actually a happy ending.  Jim, maybe you can look at Jesus as our ark. Only, that ship has already sailed and now we're on dry land enjoying the new covenant. Many are called (or invited) and few are chosen. That's God's business. Good lessons. Leigh Anne (Message edited by grace_alone on June 30, 2011) | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 7284 Registered: 9-2006  |
Many are called, but a few are frozen. | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1202 Registered: 5-2007 |
My point here was more on the idea of passive salvation, once saved always saved. I used the passages to suggest that the loss rate is extremely high. This is why some Christians lean to the works side as a means to prevent presumption or cheap grace. This is how I have viewed the SDA for the most part, but I also realized while a SDA that it became the main theme. I have been struggling to grasp the tension between the two , works , fruits and grace alone. It seems to me there are ample teachings in both directions in the Bible. Bringing them together is where I fail. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 7286 Registered: 9-2006 |
Jim, out here in the Evangelical world you are going to run on whole denomination, groups, organizations and individuals who don't believe in the once saved always saved and each will give their biblical evidence they think makes their case. Although each side see's it differently for the most part they have respect for each others beliefs. But neither of them term the other as believing in 'cheap grace', if fact I never heard the term used referring to other Christians until I met my first Adventist and came on this forum. The words sound as if they are hurled as an insult at other Christians. Personally I never have gotten used to the words used in referring to other Christians nor have I cared for it, and I don't think I ever want to be found using it. The two sides of the equation were talked about in theology classes and it wasn't used there that I can remember either. Neither party of Christians would ever think of Jesus sacrifice as 'cheap grace', nor would sober thinking men an women of God purposely use the term to explain the difference in doctrinal beliefs. Neither do I think either side use works as a means to prevent presumption of cheap grace. Each side knows that works is a fruit and an outcome of the great grace received. There are sober thinking men and women of God on both sides of the isle who work only to further the kingdom of God. Fruits, including works are an outcome of being saved and both sides of the isle know this. Christians from both sides of the isle come together in many case with the aim to further Gods kingdom and to see the lost saved, and that is the works of the fruit of the Holy spirit. Where you may be failing is in using the term in looking at either side of the coin. Rather than looking at the term or using the term it might be better to look at the grace that saved both sides of the isle. Is's very simple, one side of the isle believes a person can lose their salvation while the other side of the isle believes a person cannot, but both side are fully convinced of the grace received. River | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 1186 Registered: 7-2004  |
2 Pet 2:5 and did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a preacher of righteousness, with seven others, when He brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly; This is the verse used to support the idea. I think it goes beyond what this verse says, and contradicts what Gen 6 says, to claim that this means Noah was recruiting people to get on the ark. The verse in 2 Pet doesn't even tell us if his preaching was before or after the flood. One opinion would be that Noah re-told the story of the flood during the following 350 years. Personally, I lean towards the idea the Noah was a man who spoke up for righteousness his whole life. The covenant was made with Noah and his family, not with everyone who chooses to join you on the ark. | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1205 Registered: 5-2007 |
River, I did not mean to use it (cheap grace) as an insult to God or to anyone or any group. I have heard the term used several times before in past years. It is a term that implies a less than sincere approach to walking in a close relationship to God , but feeling secure that one is saved nevertheless. License. That mindset to use the term probably is born from a legalistic view on the law, esp the 10C. SDA teach that the 10C is still fully in force. While teaching that the justifaction is a gift through Christ. They maintain that the fruits require and include adherance to the law to the best of our capacity, while acknowledging that we will never perfectly render compliance. So they trap is set, faith plus works equals salvation and thus anything less than that is to cheapen or discount the gravity of obedience to the law. They view the law as the reason God had to die as a ransom, and to continue to break any of the laws in the 10C is to consider the death of Christ and His suffering as cheapened or taken for granted. So I get it in that sense. But as you can see and know already. The law itself cannot make us better, it may define sin, it condemns but it does not produce anything but legalistic efforts at works. I think the SDA know that as well. At least they are aware of it. I am aware of the views and teachings on Grace and the New Covenant. I have been trying to embrace them as best I know how. Yet I am haunted by the definitions of , Law of Liberty, Commandments of God, God blessing the Sabbath day and made it Holy. I struggle to come to terms with the fact that the Bible , the NT does not teach that the Sabbath is binding, but neither does it appear to teach that it is specifically exempted. The silence argument on some of these things can be used as a two edge sword. Paul writes that something was nailed to the cross. But the SDA argue it was circumsision(rites) and sacrificial systems, not the law itself. But Paul points to the Tablets ! The Death system. Then there is "do we make void the law","God forbid, we establish the law" What law ? The law of Christ Paul says. But does not define it. That two edge sword can be used both ways here again. But Paul does define the fruits of the Spirit. So then, when I dwell in Paul, I am at the greater place of peace. If I go anywhere else in scripture, I end up back at the law. I look outside, what say you, I ask. I get ten different views. The SDA have their version, their rationale. Sometimes so clear it is inviting and soothing at first , but then soon blossoms into a sequence of loading down with add on's. So , it is not about having it my way. Folding my arms and jutting my lower lip in a pout. It is about anxiety, bewilderment and being jerked about in confusion. I am learning as I go, but as yet not to the point that I have been able to step into a consistant direction or a place of abiding peace. Ric, I do not know why God simply erased the board and started over. I was as if the whole of man became impossible to redeem. | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 1187 Registered: 7-2004 |
Jim, I don't know why God did either, and any comments would just be speculation. I know that He did and I trust Him to do (or have done) the right thing. Whether I can understand how and why it is the right thing or not. God is not on trial. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 7292 Registered: 9-2006 |
Quote:It is about anxiety, bewilderment and being jerked about in confusion. Jim I think this is a common condition for those who are first awakened to Christ and more especially a former Adventist. Maybe longer for some than others, but you'll get there. Now my friend it is not you that has the reins if in fact you have accepted Jesus as your savior. You may not think that the seat will hold you up, but then God knows your mind and he knows how to deal with each of us. Its not us that have a hold of him, its him that has a hold of us. Now be encouraged in the lord today and I am going to pray for you soon as I hit the send button. River | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1206 Registered: 5-2007 |
Thank You River, I have indeed accepted Christ and asked for His redemption and saving Grace. I think , just maybe, God is more loving than I realize. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 7295 Registered: 9-2006 |
Oh he is indeed more loving than any of us realize, he covers us with his hand and we can't crawl out from under it no matter how confused we are with it all. I went through years of question upon question upon question and I thought God would soon give up on me and go away, I just didn't see how I could be saved. I was living under the cloud of depression caused by AvPD, I can't feel loved by anyone, I wish I could but its just the way it is, so I couldn't feel loved by God either. Its hell I know Jim, but there will come a day when he will settle you in his love, no matter how hard a nut you think you are too crack. River | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 12715 Registered: 12-2003  |
Jim, only God is holy. When Jesus came, He fulfilled all the shadows of Him...holy rites, vessels, lampstands, shewbread, tabernacle, feasts, days—and He embodied everything those holy things, places, and times had symbolized. Now, in the New Covenant, we have no holy places, things, or times. No created things are holy—except those who are born of the Spirit and are made holy by Jesus for God's glory and purpose. Now we have Jesus—the fulfillment and embodiment of all the holy shadows. That's why we don't have to worry about Sabbath anymore. We have Jesus. He came and fulfilled the shadows and is to us all that those holy places, things, and times represented to Israel. Colleen | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1208 Registered: 5-2007 |
River, I was diagnosed with Generalized Anxiety Disorder in my 20,s. Manifesting itself mostly as anxiety, and depression that usually comes with it. I have been through that mill for decades and mostly have lived a somewhat productive life until the divorce and empty nest set in. Then on the heels of that came health problems. So wrap that snowball up in one bundle and what you have is a hammered soul looking for security and peace of mind. Now having left the SDA some 9 years ago, and then the changes in my life. I have spent these years asking questions and spiraling in confusion. In my thinking, I will not find healing unless I find peace with God. It is bad enough that life has come to this low point. But not knowing how to take refuge in God has made it doubly hard. I live between the peaceful moments and try to cope with the rest. I am convinced that I cannot nail things down and certainly have little control over life itself. I am causing my own stress in trying to chase after these things. Having peace of mind and a sense of well being is power. When that is ripped away, just getting one foot in front of the other can be agonizing. I often confuse or interpret bad things in my day as God's wrath, or the devil is attacking in some way. I pray and things do not always get better, sometimes they do, but for some things, years go by. Some things like health issues , they progress . So I look for ways to cope, sources of healing and strength. But most of the time those require pieces of me I no longer have to give. Be it not good enough, confused, a guilt trip or fear and anxiety. Finally it boils down to being accepted, flaws and all, failings included, broken and mixed up. Can't pay for a thing, can't earn it either. How do I take hold of His strength? | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 1970 Registered: 7-2007 |
Don't worry Jim; If you've accepted Jesus as your Lord and Savior, He is hanging onto you. | ||
| Skeeter Registered user Username: Skeeter Post Number: 1481 Registered: 12-2007 |
Jim, "being accepted, flaws and all" We ALL need that There is nothing we can do to "earn" acceptance from God. Not law keeping not any good works of any kind, our best efforts at being "good" are pitiful failures. Like Asurprise said "He is hanging onto you". Thank God He is hanging onto all of us who love Him and accept His righteousness since we have none of our own. Francie | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 1972 Registered: 7-2007 |
The Old Testament prophet Isaiah said (Isaiah 64:6): "all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags." If a prophet of God said that his righteousness was filthy rags, then certainly none of our righteousness helps us to obtain or maintain salvation! |
