| Author | Message | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 1903 Registered: 7-2007 |
Colleen, I'm praying for you... | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 1904 Registered: 7-2007 |
Hec; I agree with you. | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1161 Registered: 5-2007 |
Ric, GEN 3 22 And the LORD God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.” Matthew 10:28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell. Rev 20:14 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire. REV 22 1 Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb 2 down the middle of the great street of the city. On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations. 19 And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll. J: This is why it does not fit. There is no tree of life in hell. God can destroy the soul. The tree of life means to live forever, Ezekiel 33: 11Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel? J: Now I realize that we can debate endlessly about what death really means, or what just about any other key word might mean. Eternal means eternal in simple words. However , when something does not add up. Something is missing, added, edited, altered, misinterpreted, misunderstood, incomplete, but something is not apparent. We are accountable to use reasoning to the extent of our ability, however trust must be supreme. The fact that I choose to trust does not mean I agree with the mainline belief in eternal hell. I cannot agree with what in non sensical. That does not mean I am right. It means I cannot lock onto to a disconnect. Yet, I trust God. Jim | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 1007 Registered: 7-2004  |
Asuprose, You agree with Hec's insulting remarks or you agree with Hec's viewpoint that our feelings and thinking are useful for defining how God must be? It wasn't clear from your vague response. | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 1008 Registered: 7-2004 |
Jim, I asked you to start with a basic question, what does Scripture says about the second death. You included that verse, but you included a number of verses unrelated to that question. Scripture defines the lake of fire as the second death. The lake of fire involves being "tormented day and night forever and ever" (Rev 20:10). Do we agree that this is accurate so far? (Message edited by Ric_b on May 19, 2011) | ||
| Seekinglight Registered user Username: Seekinglight Post Number: 524 Registered: 3-2009 |
Colleen, thank you for sharing your current challenge with us. Scott and I will be praying for you & your family. Please keep us posted. Something came to mind that I thought I'd share. It's a chapter in Wayne Jacobsen's book called "He Loves Me". Jacobsen is the gentleman who wrote "The Shack". Now, I feel like I have to make a disclaimer that I do not agree with all the in's and out's of his theology. However, many of his writings have blessed me, nonetheless. You can find the entire book here: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CB0QFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.lifestream.org%2Fdownload.php%3Ff%3D5&rct=j&q=he+loves+me+wayne+jacobsen+glorify+thy+name&ei=OC7PTZG...IA4SusAPj5YCiCw&usg=AFQjCNGmlBuSvfOknLmAe1Kt-YxTnovbSg&sig2=x3DftBqgFWXbP_NXuQz-1Q But, below is the chapter that has helped me in times of suffering. It changed my paradigm of how I relate to God and how I pray through the difficult times. The Prayer God Always Answers “Since God offers to manage our affairs for us, let us once and for all hand them over to His infinite wisdom, in order to occupy ourselves only with Himself and what belongs to Him.” J. P. de Caussade (c. 1700s) His time of teaching about his Father’s kingdom had drawn to an end. There would be no more opportunity to hold a leper in his hands or sit in Mary’s home in Bethany and talk of his Father’s wonders, at least not in this body, not in the way he had grown accustomed. He had returned to Jerusalem for his final visit. Days away from yielding himself to those who sought to kill him, his heart was deeply troubled. He stood on the threshold of the greatest act of love and trust our world would ever behold, but he knew in doing so he would be consumed. What should he do? Would he trust his Father’s love and continue the journey, or would he cut it short in a moment of weakness and beckon angels to set him free? Perhaps the most powerful lesson he taught his disciples about prayer began by polling how they thought he should pray: “What shall I say? ‘Father, save me from this hour?’” Perhaps there were nods around the circle as they all acknowledged how good that sounded to them. That’s how we’re used to praying. In moments of trial and pain, it is natural even for the unbeliever to cry out for help. Save me, God! If you get me out of this I will serve you forever. His disciples understood that prayer well enough, but Jesus wanted them to learn a better way. Even when it was his life at stake, Jesus was tuned to a better frequency. “No, it was for this very reason I came to this hour.” What he wanted personally wasn’t in the picture. He was focused elsewhere—on the purpose that transcended his personal happiness. Then he prayed the prayer he wanted them to hear, “Father, glorify your name” (John 12:27). In this brief exchange we learn everything we will need to know about prayer and what it means to follow God in this life. For every situation you’ll ever encounter will offer you two options in prayer: “Father, save me” or “Father, glorify your name!” One will lead you to frustration and disillusionment; the other to the greatest wonders in God’s heart. WHATEVER YOU ASK? Jesus teaching about prayer seemed to be incredibly simple: Ask for whatever they wish and be assured that the Father will give it to you. It only gets complicated when our experience with prayer falls short of this ideal. Why would he tantalize us with such outlandish promises only to leave us disappointed in so many of the things we ask? It’s not so difficult to understand why he would ignore our more selfish requests. Even his disciples had to learn that the power of prayer was not for their selfish agendas. Instead of calling down fire from heaven as James and John had asked for; Jesus taught them that such ideas came from the wrong place. And when they asked him to grant them seats on his right and left in heaven; he told them they weren’t his to give and that in his Father’s house there is no place for anyone to set themselves over anyone else. Jesus never intended prayer to be the way we manipulate God to do what we think is best. If you look carefully at Jesus’ simple statements about prayer you will see that they are set in the midst of us participating in what God is doing. While we are invited to make any request of God we like, the prayers that move God’s hand are those that grow out of our trust in who he is and what he is doing. I wonder what my life would be like now if God had given me half the things for which I’ve asked him. I know I would have been giddy with delight in the short-term, but I would have had no idea of the hurt my selfish requests would have caused. And how would I have come to know him as my loving Father if I treated him like my genie in a bottle? It’s far more difficult to understand why our prayers for other people in pain and misery go unanswered. Was Peter responding in any way less than love when he forbid Jesus to go to Jerusalem to face his executioners? I think not. Yet his entreaty was met with the harshest rebuke, as Satan’s words to keep Jesus from his mission. Peter didn’t understand God’s higher purpose in the cross Jesus would suffer. For God to have answered his prayer he would have aborted the very act that would save Peter from himself. “You do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men” (Matt. 16:23) Because Peter didn’t understand that his concern simply gave voice to Satan’s attempt to discourage Jesus in his obedience to his Father. It was a “save me” prayer, rising more out of fear than God’s love and like most “save me” prayers, they usually resist God’s purpose rather than serve it. “FATHER, GLORIFY YOUR NAME” We were made for this! When God fashioned the first humans he designed them body, mind and soul so they could participate in his glory and share in his pleasure. If you’ve ever known that glory, either just sitting in his presence communing with him or having just seen him use you to reveal himself to someone else, you know what I’m talking about. At such moments it seems time itself stands still. Waves of joy sweep across us and it is so incredible, that you feel if you were made just for that one moment your life would have had a wealth of meaning. “I was made for this.” And you were. Jesus knew that about himself. Faced with two choices, “Father, save me!” or “Father, glorify your name,” he chose the latter. He knew the only real glory existed in fulfilling the Father’s purpose in his life regardless of the circumstances. As much as he might have dreaded the agony of the cross, he knew he had come into the world for that moment. “Father glorify your name.” This is the prayer that the Father always answers. “Father, may the purpose for which you have created me and placed me where you have in the world be fulfilled completely.” It is the prayer that disarms our self-interest and asserts our trust that the Father who made us and who loves us so deeply knows us better than we know ourselves. We make this choice not one time for our entire life; but in the immediacy of each situation we face. When I didn’t get the job I wanted, the raise I deserved, or the medical report I hoped for: “Father, save me!” or “Father, glorify your name.” We face it when we’re the subject of malicious gossip or the object of someone’s selfish act. “Father, save me!” or “Father, glorify your name.” We confront it when we face people in need, the opportunity to speak the truth where it will cost us, or when we can take up the cause of the powerless. “Father, save me!” or “Father, glorify your name.” We engage it when the dark storm surrounds us, and when trials overwhelm us. “Father, save me!” or “Father, glorify your name.” A DAILY CHOICE It’s not the words we use that matter here, but the cry of our heart. Choose to save yourself and you will find yourself resisting God when you don’t even mean to. You’ll end up praying against the very things God is using to transform you. You’ll miss his attempts to help because they won’t look like the thing you want. I’ve got to be honest. I have spent most of my life praying “save me” prayers. I didn’t always know that’s what I was doing, but simply thinking that God would want the best for me defined in my terms. But God has taught me over and over again in this journey that he knows best about everything. The way I would solve my problems and help other people would do more damage to us all than he would allow. When he denied me the thing that I wanted it was because he had a better way not only to deal with my circumstance but change me in the process. In almost every situation it seems that what God is doing is the opposite of what I would do. When he wanted to teach me to trust him more, I prayed he would fix things so I wouldn’t have to. When he wanted to lead me into the fullest participation of what he made me to be, I prayed he would just make me happy. When he wanted to change my character so I would represent his heart to others, I wanted him to leave me the way I was and not allow me to be caught in situations where the “old Wayne” would surface. I’m so glad he won, more often in spite of my prayers than because of them. I want him to continue, I really do. I want him to use everything in my life to shape me to be more like him so that he can fulfill in me the purpose for which he made me. FINAL WORDS I could go on with other implications of what it means to live in God’s love, but I think the picture is clear enough now and you’ll be able to recognize the pathway and follow it wherever your Father wants to take you. This is a life far better lived than it is read about. Besides, this life is far more fun to discover than it is to let someone tell you about it. As you find yourself falling into the security of the Father’s love you will find that your own thoughts, ideas and actions will surprise you. You’ll catch yourself thinking, “I’m not like this.” And yet you are. You always have been, it’s just that it was distorted and twisted by a broken relationship with the Father loved you so much. Find some others who are sharing the same journey and you’ll have the joy of discovering what they are learning as well. The journey cannot be found in the pages of this book or any other. It lies in the Father’s heart and your own. I can’t make this happen for you, so I won’t even try. You can’t make it happen for you, so please don’t you try either. What you can do is trust God enough to let him do it for you. Don’t worry about having any illusions there. He seems to love doing this more than anything else he does and he’s been doing it with people through the whole course of history. If you came into a room where a two-year-old child was playing and wanted to have a relationship with that child, who would have to make that happen? Would it be the child? Of course not. To forge a relationship with that toddler, you must be the one to do it. He’ll have to respond of course; but you would take the initiative. You would find a way to meet him at his level and you would engage him with things that interest him as you draw him into a relationship. The same is true with God. He is higher above you than you are above a two-year-old. He will take the initiative at your invitation. Simply ask him to begin to reveal to you how much he loves you and he will ably take it from there. “Glorify your name.” In all of us, now until the end of the age. And for eternity beyond. Amen. In him we were also chosen… according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. —EPHESIANS 1:11-12 | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 1906 Registered: 7-2007 |
Ric; I don't think that you're like Ellen White, (I don't agree with Hec on that - not that he was accusing you of that; but you seem to feel that you're the one he was talking about), but I'm wondering if perhaps you are so used to being on CARM, that you occasionally get into attack mode. Some of your responses have been very harsh. That's all I meant. I don't think you were harsh with Animal. It seemed like you were gentle with him, as gentle as the time I used three question marks to emphasize a point! I was astonished when someone got offended by that, but since they were offended, I apologized to them. Would you apologize to Animal? Yes, I know, you were just teasing and didn't mean anything insulting. I too, didn't mean anything insulting by my three question marks, but when I found that someone felt attacked by them, I was quick to apologize. I would definitely not want someone to be hurt by that - even if all that is, is an expression of emphasis! | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 1019 Registered: 7-2004 |
Hec didn't say harsh, he said arrogant. Harsh is a description of my words, arrogant is an attack on my character. And it is 100% clear that Hec was talking specifically about me, he already told the other two people in the conversation who disagreed with his statement that he wasn't talking about them. It doesn't take a genius or Cinderella to figure it out from there. There is a difference between challenging a person's belief (or even attacking that belief) and personally attacking the character of the individual. That is a distinction that SDAs often fail to understand, and it appear to me that this has carried over for some as formers. My words to Hec may have been strong, but they are true. And none of them were an attack on Hec's character or on Hec as a person. Building our doctirine of God from our feelings and our logical conclusions is making a god in our own image, and this type of god is an idol. The only safety is in relying completely and totally on Scripture. Could I have been more gentle in how I said this, perhaps. But that doesn't explain calling me arrogant or posting about your agreement with someone calling me arrogant (keep in mind Asurprise that you stated your agreement with Hec calling me arrogant, not calling my words harsh). I'm not concerned when someone disagrees with my theology. And I welcome it when they provide strong Biblical reasons why they disagree as that provides an opportunity to learn more. But when the response to not liking my theology is to attack my character (I might as well have stayed SDA, I'm just like Ellen White, I'm manipulating Scripture-when in fact i am providing a direct quote) it is out of proportion to the discussion. | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 1908 Registered: 7-2007 |
Ric; I didn't mean to attack your character. In just this last post you wrote, you sounded arrogant though. That's not to say that you are that way, but you come across like a know-it-all. You rarely if ever seem to learn from others. Instead you seem to be always correcting others. The Bible says to speak the truth in love. (Ephesians 4:15) Also, please pray before you post. People don't care how much you know until they know how much you care. | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 1029 Registered: 7-2004 |
Asurprise, "People don't care how much you know until they know how much you care." may be a nice sounding platitude, but it is not a Biblical truth. In fact it is a statement that is extremely popular among the SDAs I know. I really don't care one way or the other with how people view me and what I know. And if you are a believer who is interested in following Scripture, you shouldn't care how nicely packaged that message is, or whether you personally like the person who pointed the biblical message out to you. You should care about whether that message is biblically accurate. If you are looking for excuses to ignore Biblical verses presented to you, then I guess focusing on the person presenting them makes sense. But it is a cop-out from facing the Biblical evidence presented. On what basis can you make the accusation that I do not pray before I post? You say that you don't mean to attack my character, but you keep doing it over and over again. My perception is that you don't like what I have taught, but you have failed to find a scriptural basis for dismissing it. Since you haven't found a Scriptural basis for dismissing the teaching you are now inventing personal character reasons for rejecting what I have taught. I don't pray before posting. I'm too harsh. I'm arrogant. I'm a know-it-all. I spend more time teaching than learning. I don't show enough caring towards others. Perhaps you would have more opportunity to see me learning if your responses were based on addressing the Biblical verses instead of on my personal character. Currently you have very little idea of what I may or may not have learned from discussions with other posters over the years. It is just another case of character defamation. For those who follow sports, you might understand the analogy that I am about to make. In hockey, when two players fight they both receive penalties. But there is an additional and worse penalty for being the 3rd man to enter into the scrum. That is exactly how I view your actions in this thread, Asurprise. I find that to be far more personally offensive than any comments exchanged between two people in the midst of a heated discussion. | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 1912 Registered: 7-2007 |
Ric; I didn't say that "People don't care how much you know until they know how much you care," is a Biblical truth. It is true though. I'm just trying to get you to "speak the truth in love. (Ephesians 4:15)" Please, speak the truth in love. You come across as attacking instead of instructing and the truth without love, kills. | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 1032 Registered: 7-2004 |
Asurprise, my point was that the unBiblical teaching you are repeating isn't true-"People don't care how much you know until they know how much you care," The discussion isn't about how much I know. The discussion is about whether the Bible can be completely trusted as true and whether there is any other source that can be trusted equal to or above the literal words of the Bible (such as our emotions, feeling, speculations, and logic). Even the statement that you are promoting is based in the idea that our emotions are more important than the literal words of Scripture. I have not been trying to make any case for what I know, only for what the Bible specifically says. If you are a Christian, should you care about what the Bible verses say? Or should you be content with your own logic and speculation? I am speaking the truth in love. The problem is that you have created a very narrow definition of love based on something other than Scripture. Was Paul speaking the truth in love when he said that he wished those who were deceiving the Galatians would castrate themselves? I believe that he was. Do you have children? Have you ever needed to say things to them that weren't pleasant but knew it was for their own good? Would it be loving to not say these things just because they might hurt to hear in the short term? Consider Paul's description of how he felt about writing the 1st letter to the Corinthians as expressed in 2 Cor 7:8 I am not sorry that I sent that severe letter to you, though I was sorry at first, for I know it was painful to you for a little while. 9 Now I am glad I sent it, not because it hurt you, but because the pain caused you to repent and change your ways. It was the kind of sorrow God wants his people to have, so you were not harmed by us in any way. 10 For the kind of sorrow God wants us to experience leads us away from sin and results in salvation. There’s no regret for that kind of sorrow (NLT). I'm certainly not claiming to be Paul's equal, or anything close to that. But what I am pointing out, Scripturally, is that speaking the truth in love does not mean that the person hearing those words won't be grieved by the words. Please show me from Scripture where you get the idea that "the truth without love, kills". And finally just like you have absolutely no basis for concluding that I don't pray before posting, you also have no basis for concluding that my posts are done without love. What makes you think that you can make these conclusions about others? Asurprise, I truly wish that I had a way of taking this to you personally, as we are instructed to do in Matt 18. Unfortunately the nature of this public, anonymous forum does not provide me with that opportunity. So let's get back to the real issues here. Is it Spiritually dangerous to ignore the literal Word of God in favor of your own speculations and logic? If we define God by our logic, emotions, and speculations are we actually creating a god in our own image? Is it unreasonable to call a god that we are creating in our own image an idol? | ||
| Skeeter Registered user Username: Skeeter Post Number: 1432 Registered: 12-2007 |
I think these can be answered very simply. "Is it Spiritually dangerous to ignore the literal Word of God in favor of your own speculations and logic? " YES ! Without a doubt. "If we define God by our logic, emotions, and speculations are we actually creating a god in our own image? " YES ! (too much running through my mind on this one to go into detail,,, it would take a week) "Is it unreasonable to call a god that we are creating in our own image an idol?" NO! Any "created" god can be nothing BUT an idol. | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 1913 Registered: 7-2007 |
Ric; it sounds as though you're going off on rabbit trails. I'm not ignoring the Word of God. And I'm not, defining God. Nor am I creating a god. The issue that I'm addressing is that you sound so harsh sometimes. There are people on the forum at every stage of Christian development. This is supposed to be a safe place for people to come and ask questions and/or share their views. It's not CARM, where I've heard that people debate. Anyway though, how can a harsh tone bring people to God? (Message edited by Asurprise on May 23, 2011) | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 1033 Registered: 7-2004 |
Asurprise, The issue of this thread is not me, my personality, or my character. The issue is the questions I asked above, please stay with the topic and address these issues and quit talking about me. If there is an issue with my adherence to the rules of this board, that should be between me and the moderators of the board, not between you and I. So, again, I beg you, please return to the issue. What are your clear and direct answers to these questions- Is it Spiritually dangerous to ignore the literal Word of God in favor of your own speculations and logic? THAT is the issue that I posted in reply to, and which has drawn so much criticism. You were not the original poster to whom it was addressed, but you have been critical of the question being raised. I would like to understand your theology on this matter, rather than your opinions of my personality. As such, I would like to engage in a discussion of these theological questions. If we define God by our logic, emotions, and speculations are we actually creating a god in our own image? Is it unreasonable to call a god that we are creating in our own image an idol? (Message edited by Ric_b on May 23, 2011) | ||
| Skeeter Registered user Username: Skeeter Post Number: 1436 Registered: 12-2007 |
OOPS... didnt realize those questions were directed to Asurprise... or I would not have answered them. I thought they were just questions in general to everyone on the forum. Sorry....guess I should have read the post better. | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 1777 Registered: 3-2009 |
From the HOme page of Former Seventh-day Adventists Forum: Welcome former and questioning Seventh-day Adventists. This is a place for you to fellowship and study with others who have discovered that Jesus is their true Sabbath Rest. The FAF Forum is a place where you can interact with others who are facing many of the same issues and challenges that you may be facing as a former Adventist. Sign up today for membership and become a part of this supportive community. Hec | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 1930 Registered: 6-2006  |
Boy there's a whole lot of passive-aggressive behavior going on in this thread. | ||
| Skeeter Registered user Username: Skeeter Post Number: 1437 Registered: 12-2007 |
 sad aint it....? Dont know whether to cry or just leave for a while and hope things calm down. I feel like I am reading CARM. I purposely avoid CARM as it is so full of arguments that often seemingly have no point except to criticize each other. "By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another." There are sometimes certain things that people just cannot agree on and cannot bring themselves to apologize for because each truly believes their opinion is the correct one.... sometimes it is best just to let it go and move on to other things.  (peace) | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 1034 Registered: 7-2004 |
Skeeter, I was glad you answered the questions. They weren't just for Asurprise and it helps to have others weigh in on the theological questions so that this can get away from the personal. Love doesn't mean allowing dangerous errors to go unchallenged. We love our SDA friends and family, but it is because of this love that we can not be silent. Christian love is not compatible with the culturally popular "Coexist". Basing our doctrines on anything except the Word of God is extremely dangerous. Pointing that out is not attacking another person. I'd even go so far as to say that not pointing it out would show a lack of concern and caring. I apologized long before this for any personal element that was contained in, or even perceived in, my challenge to this dangerous theological perspective. And I have tried repeatedly to make this discussion about that dangerous theology instead of any person's character. |
