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Message |
Indy4now
Registered user
Username: Indy4now
Post Number: 1036
Registered: 2-2008
| | Posted on Saturday, May 07, 2011 - 8:27 am: |     |
Welcome Vjs!
My belief about sin has completely changed since I left Adventism. As an Adventist, I believed that only my actions could be sinful. If I just thought about lying, that wasn't sinful. In fact, if I thought about lying and I didn't lie... I was "victorious"! (ha! I could be victorious by my own efforts!) As I studied my way out of Adventism, I then understood that Christ completed atonement for me at the cross. Since this revelation in my life... the Holy Spirit has been revealing to me how dark and sinful my mind really is. Just as I can't fully understand how holy God is, I don't think I realize exactly the depth of what sin really is. For me, I think this is because instead of viewing sin for what it is, I've been viewing sin as a "mistake". We all make mistakes... we're humans. Somehow a "mistake" seemed more forgiveable and a step above "sin". Over these past years of being out of Adventism, I'm beginning to see how even my deeds done in rigteousness are like "filthy rags".
Anyway, as a result of the Holy Spirit's work in my life, He is revealing to me bit by bit the sin in my life. So in translating this to current Adventists... discussion with them about sin can never go anywhere because I believe that their belief of Christ not completing atonement at the cross gets in the way of an Adventist listening to the Holy Spirit teach them. They only see the 10C's. Until they comprehend that Christ completed atonement for them, they believe that they can fulfill the requirements of the law.
I am curious to hear others experiences about their belief of sin before and after leaving Adventism.
vivian |
Indy4now
Registered user
Username: Indy4now
Post Number: 1037
Registered: 2-2008
| | Posted on Saturday, May 07, 2011 - 8:37 am: | |
question #2 and possibly #3
How does pride, jealousy, anger, lack of trust in God, etc. fit into the 10C's? Which of the commandments in the 10C's is broken when our pride gets in the way?
Also, when you look at Matt. 25:41-45 as Ric pointed out, which of the 10C's is broken when we don't take care of the hungry or the poor?
Wouldn't an Adventist have to rationalize where these sins fit into breaking the 10C's in order to consider them as sins since they believe that the 10C's is the only definition of sin?
vivian |
Asurprise
Registered user
Username: Asurprise
Post Number: 1885
Registered: 7-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, May 07, 2011 - 12:13 pm: | |
Hi Vjs;  Welcome to the forum! |
Jonvil
Registered user
Username: Jonvil
Post Number: 552
Registered: 4-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, May 08, 2011 - 6:43 am: | |
"I am curious to hear others experiences about their belief of sin before and after leaving Adventism.
vivian"
We all love to tell our stories, and I'm certainly not the exception.
While still quite Adventist I was having my private morning 'devotional'.
I was feeling pretty good about myself. I 'kept' the Sabbath, hadn't beaten my wife, robbed a bank and in general had resisted the urge to rape, murder and pillage and...I was a vegetarian. In the midst of my self adulation, unbidden and out of 'nowhere' came this strange thought: It wasn't about what I did and didn't do, it was about what I am - a SINNER. This was something I had never ever considered so it was a startling concept, and while bemused, a revelation that I could not deny.
Not knowing the Gospel at that time I didn't realize how essential this brand new perception was, I continued 'keeping' the Sabbath blah blah blah. What it did do was make me very receptive to Righteousness through Faith, a watered down Gospel presented by just 2 or 3 Adventist pastors that I was lucky enough to hear. It took years for this dimwit to more fully comprehend this 'radical' truth, then I left without a backward glance.
Praise God for revealing to me these essential truths
That I am a sinner by nature, dead in sin. That I am incapable of 'doing and keeping' anything right.
and that I am
saved by grace alone
through faith alone
in Christ alone
John |
Indy4now
Registered user
Username: Indy4now
Post Number: 1039
Registered: 2-2008
| | Posted on Sunday, May 08, 2011 - 2:20 pm: | |
Wow John!
I am amazed that this truth about "what we are", which is a sinner, was revealed to you as an Adventist. I had no clue about that until I had left adventism. I completely understand and relate to your attitude about "feeling petty good about myself" because I felt REALLY good about myself! ha! Even if someone would have told me about people being incapable of keeping the 10C's... I would have looked at them and thought that maybe they were incapable, but not me!
I like what Ric wrote on his first post that legalists tend to "reduce sin to a few little behavioral rules". So true! ... and while I believed this, Christ's death on the cross didn't have much impact on my life (even though I called myself a Christian).
Amazing how much has changed since those days. Praising God for His simple truth and for His sacrifice for this child who is a sinner. Thanks for sharing John!
vivian |
Ric_b
Registered user
Username: Ric_b
Post Number: 985
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, May 08, 2011 - 4:11 pm: | |
Having joined SDAism rather than being raised in it, my experience was a bit different. Or at least that is what I attribute the difference. I saw Jesus' explanation of commandments in Matt 5 and understood that the bar was set really high. And no matter how hard I tried, or how much I prayed, I knew I was nowhere close to this standard. I really figured that something must be very wrong with me that I couldn't do better, and really questioned that God would continue to forgive me. And almost 15 years after becoming an SDA the concept of the gift of grace was revealed to me. I use that phrasing intentionally because there was nothing special that I did, or that any person or book explained to me.
Now I had years before developed questions about, or outright rejected some SDA teachings like the IJ, EGWs authority, diet/health as the right arm of the Gospel, and Sabbath as the seal of God. But this glimpse of what grace really meant was the start of moving me out of SDAism.
Looking back, I see that the Law had done it's job. It convicted me of being a hopeless sinner, it closed my mouth to any possible objection, and it left nothing but Christ and Him crucified as an answer. For a long time I question how God could have allowed me to become tangled up inside the mess of SDAism. Now I think being broken by the Law was the answer. |
Raven
Registered user
Username: Raven
Post Number: 1182
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, May 08, 2011 - 5:31 pm: | |
Most of my time as an SDA, I thought I was "pretty good," maybe like a B+ student. Certainly I wasn't sinning like non-Christians, and was better than the average, cultural SDA. I tried to keep the Sabbath, tried to be as polite and nice as possible in interaction with others, didn't eat any meat, didn't drink alcohol, didn't wear jewelry, etc. Yet at the same time, I knew I wasn't good enough. For example, I believed that if I was angry with someone or hated someone, that was basically being guilty of murder in my heart - like Jesus said in Matthew 5. It seemed like I could never completely control negative feelings and a sharp tongue. So I hoped the IJ wasn't true and that God graded on a curve instead.
A couple years before leaving the SDA church, I gradually came to recognize that it was theoretically possible to keep the 10 C's perfectly as they were written, without having any love for others. And I recognized by then that love for others what what really mattered most. And then I knew even grading on a curve wouldn't help.
Once my eyes were opened to the true Gospel of imputed righteousnes, it was such a relief to know that my sins weren't counted against me at all and instead Jesus' perfect life was in my place. Even later than that (post-SDA), I came to see that the indwelling Holy Spirit gradually changes believers in His timing, for His purposes. |
Grace1958_f
Registered user
Username: Grace1958_f
Post Number: 43
Registered: 3-2011
| | Posted on Monday, May 09, 2011 - 11:37 am: | |
According to our SDA kids, law and sin were both in effect simultaneously before creation and they base this on Romans 4:15 (KJV) Because the law worketh wrath; for where no law is, there is no transgression. This supposedly supports their belief that law was in effect before (their word *detailed) at Mt. Sinai. Having tough time scripturally disputing this. Would appreciate some input based on scripture. |
Ric_b
Registered user
Username: Ric_b
Post Number: 989
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Monday, May 09, 2011 - 1:36 pm: | |
Rom 5:13 ESV for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law.
Gal 3:17 This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void. |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 12563
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 09, 2011 - 2:53 pm: | |
Grace1958, that argument your kids are using is the typical "straw-man assumption" Adventists use to build their point. But their bottom line is wrong.
As Rick pointed out above, the Bible is unequivocally clear that the law had a beginning—Sinai, 430 years after Abraham. Galatians 3 also says it was in effect until the Seed would come (Gal. 3:16).
The SDA argument is based on the false assumption that the Law is the "transcript of God's character". But this idea is never expressed anywhere in Scripture. And a "transcript" is an exact replica, and photocopy, an EXACT reproduction. The Law (read that the Decalogue) is no such thing. In fact, Romans 5:20 says,
quote:The Law came in so that the transgression would increase…
"God" never "came in" so transgression would increase. In fact, John 1:17 says,
quote:the law was revealed through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ.
God gave the law so people would recognize their sin...so that there would actually be laws that would cause them to think about transgression and be provoked to sin more...like putting up a sign that says, "Do not spit on the sidewalk." People often would never think of spitting on the sidewalk...until the idea is suggested by the sign.
The law was given to cause people to think about the sins that are common to the fallen nature—and to provoke people into falling into sin as they pondered sinful ideas. The point was ALWAYS to cause people to realize they couldn't avoid sin once the temptation came to them.
They needed something OUTSIDE—they needed new Life.
So the idea that the law is the transcript of God's character is patently false. God never causes sin to increase. The law was His tool to bring people to an awareness of their depravity.
When the Bible states clearly when the law was given and when it ended, it means that. Literally. Before the law, sins were not imputed to people if they sinned without awareness. Romans 5 is very clear about this idea. It means exactly what it says.
As to sin and law existing "before creation"—that is EGW. The Bible does not tell us "pre-creation" stories. It only tells us OUR story. Whatever happened to Lucifer is not explained—merely mentioned—and it has no bearing whatsoever on US. Adventists (EGW) make Satan a huge part of the human story. He is NOT. To think that we know "pre creation" history and that Lucifer's story explains ours is to lead a person right down the garden path to a false gospel.
We can only take the words of Scripture...never the "ideas" gleaned from EGW or a human's reasoning when understanding salvation and the purpose of the Law.
Romans 4:15 is not about pre-creation. It is about humanity from the time of Adam to the time of Moses (Romans 5:12-14).
The Bible does not tell us Satan's story, nor does "pre-creation" tell us anything whatsoever about ourselves. God tells us only how humanity fits into His story, and how He intersected our hopeless story and redeemed us. Jesus did not come to help angels (Heb. 1:5). Satan's presence in Eden is not a revelation of the presence of law or sin before Creation. It merely tells us what happened to humanity. It is not meant in any way to give us an excuse to interpret the words of Scripture to mean anything "spiritual" or other than the plain meanings they carry.
Colleen |
Grace1958_f
Registered user
Username: Grace1958_f
Post Number: 44
Registered: 3-2011
| | Posted on Monday, May 09, 2011 - 3:30 pm: | |
Ric_b Thanks for the simple verses Romans 5:13 and Gal 3:17. We actually did send those verses to the kids, but we think they just ignore them. Those verses make it quite clear. We believe it is the SDA/EGW veil that is blinding them.
Colleen: Thanks so much for your post. We plan to forward some of the points you make to the kids and see what happens. We are currently studying Gal 3:29 - Gal 4:11.
Sometimes we feel like we are beating our heads against a brick wall. |
Hec
Registered user
Username: Hec
Post Number: 1760
Registered: 3-2009
| | Posted on Monday, May 09, 2011 - 10:34 pm: | |
quote:Rom 5:13 ESV for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law.
Sin was not counted. Does that mean that everybody before Sinai will be saved because since there was no law since was not counted?
Hec |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 12565
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 09, 2011 - 11:35 pm: | |
Hec, no. Romans 5:14 says,
quote: Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
Sin was in the world; it's just that "sins" weren't imputed to people if they were sins of which they were not aware. But everyone since Adam is born dead in sin.
So no--everyone was not saved; people have always been saved on the basis of believing God and His promises and thus being credited with righteousness (Gen. 15:6).
Colleen |
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