| Author | Message | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1111 Registered: 5-2007 |
I was reading in a book written by Pastor Ron Phillips, "Spiritual Warfare". CH 6. He brings up Gen :1-2 Pointing out that the footnote in some translations suggest that the proper word may be "became" Thus to read that the earth "became" formless and void. That God moved upon the face of the (pre-existing)waters. His point was that he believes that satan was already upon this earth before or when man was created. He refers to other passages saying that satan fell to earth, (possibly being the actual cause of the destruction of the earth and wiping out the existing life forms, eg: Dinosaurs and other life forms) It was only a short tangent topic, but it made me think, not another theory to digest. I looked it up on the internet and read another article that essential mirrored that position. That the earth possibly had former versions of itself biosphere, prior to the teraforming and creation of the present animal world and the creation of Man (Adam & Eve). Thus , providing a plausible explaination to geologic interpretations of a much older earth and also of the prehistoric ages. Thus, between Gen 1:1 and vs 2. All this occurred. So, it disturbed my soul. I woudl rather simply accept that God created the earth in 6 days. But indeed, it does appear that God had previously created the Heavens and Earth , and then created our existing world in 6 days. I prayed about this. The is a side track in the study and in my earnest to find and stay on a path of Spirtual healing. I am not sure why I needed to consider this, or why the Author put that in there. Since at best, it just leads to speculations. Speculations are one step from doubts. So in all this, I percieve that once again, I have to hold onto what God has made clear and not allow that which is unclear to undermine my foundational trust in Christ. I was looking the other day for advice on the best translations, and somehow ended up looking at a list of examples of disputed or suggested passages that have been edited through the centuries by way of bias of the interpreters. Manuscripts that do not exactly match in some passages, or suggestions that there was copy overs borrowing from one to insert into another. This too disturbed my sense of peace. If we do not have faith in the validity of scripture, what is left? Again, that same lesson, what is made clear, hold fast, what is unclear, let it be. This is more of that same experience of discovery of why there is no such thing as perfect and flawless translations, interpretations, understandings or of religions. Everything man touches, is subject to error. All that said. Faith in what God has made clear is important, not allowing the evil one to steal that from me. For I am learning that there will always be things that are partially revealed, incompletley understood. My questions to others is this, what thoughts and coping methods do you use to hold fast a simple faith when these things cross your path. What attitude or instruction from scripture do you find helpful to maintain peace in your faith walk in Christ? Jim | ||
| Skeeter Registered user Username: Skeeter Post Number: 1333 Registered: 12-2007 |
Jim I think it is probably very possible that the "earth" existed before "life" of any kind was put here. The Bible says that the earth was 'without form, and void and darkness was upon the face of the deep' To me that means the earth was here... perhaps kind of a lifeless shapeless lump of clay just waiting for the artist who is God to (when He knew the time was right) put into action His plan for this little spot in His universe. Maybe He had something here before and maybe not... it doesnt bother me one way or other. The important thing to me is that He made the decision to use this planet to bring us into existence  Our relationship to God begins right here on this little planet called Earth and if we accept Him and His gift to us of salvation we can spend eternity with Him and I think it is VERY exciting that there will be sooo many things that we will be able to learn. God is ETERNAL, I dont believe that His creativity began and ended with US. Think of all the time that passed (with GOD)before WE we were here... I just cant imagine God sitting back and twiddling his thumbs and just waiting for the time to bring us into existence and that He was not "creating" things before. I don't believe that there is any other planet where He formed man in His own image I dont believe in a "parallel universe" where He has created people, died for their sins, etc as He has for us.... BUT since God is a God of "creation" I do not have any trouble thinking of Him creating a multitude of things before US. And that thought does not make me feel at all threatened about His love for us. It would just mean that there is soooo very much more than we can even imagine that He has been preparing for us to see and learn about when the time comes for us to be with Him So back to the original topic... if He spoke the "earth" into existence immediately before He prepared it to be our temporary home or if He spoke it into existence eons ahead of time and just left it for a time to be "without form and void" I dont know, but "knowing" that does not effect my relationship with Him either here or through eternity. So I DO have peace in my walk in Christ. It is all about HIM. Just my opinion..... Francie | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1112 Registered: 5-2007 |
Hi Francie, I agree with you, regardless of what we do or do not know about the sequence or contents of creation, we still know that we belong to Christ. Though it sounds SDA. I believe that God most likely created elsewhere in the universe long before Man was created. But I cannot prove that. Nor is it my job to do so. So often we have had to contend with science that has the frequent effect of undermining Biblical teachings. In the past , I have read and still have a couple books on Creationism defense. There are plausible explainations no matter what model you want to consider. Yet, regardless which tact you take, ultimately, it is faith in Christ. Either you believe in Christ or you do not. I know that the Bible says God created all that exists. That is enough, that is part of the foundation we hold in Christ. John:1 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God,and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. Jim | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 12452 Registered: 12-2003  |
Jim, your conclusion is my conclusion: God created everything that exists. He simply has not told us the details. Have you seen the movie "The Star of Bethlehem"? I think that would settle a LOT of issues...not the exact questions you raised above, but the idea of God's foreknowledge and placing into the actual function of creation all the markers of His purposes. I highly recommend that you see it. You can order it online here: http://www.bethlehemstar.net/ Colleen | ||
| Dljc Registered user Username: Dljc Post Number: 427 Registered: 7-2010 |
Jim, That is known as "The Gap Theory". You can read about it here: http://www.christiananswers.net/q-aig/aig-c003.html It causes a lot of problems in Scripture. It's easier to answer the question "How long did it take Adam to name all the animals?" A pastor I know and have worked with liked to remind us, "Where Scripture is silent, so should we be." | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 7193 Registered: 9-2006  |
I think a lot of people have the frame of mind that it took the Lord to make it about how long it takes us to read it. | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 2796 Registered: 8-2004  |
Hi Jim, did you know that "Young Earth" Creationism, as it is today, owes a LOT to George McCready Price, an SDA? I posted a thread about it awhile back. Here's the link to that thread: http://www.formeradventist.com/discus/messages/11/11182.html | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1113 Registered: 5-2007 |
Hello Dljc, I agree with that thought, when scripture is silent, more often than not , so should we be. Simply because one person's comfort in a speculation or conjecture may cause another to derail into doubt or confusions. It comes back to realizing that God gives us what we need to know, the rest is a matter of trust in Christ through faith. A lesson that has been so hard to learn personally. I am at the edges of that process. In the SDA culture, we or at least myself, have cultivated the mindset that we cannot presume anything when it comes to doctrine, beliefs, understandings etc. This dire warning is the very thing that puts us to saving ourselves by mustering the intellect to figure it all out. The problem with that is , there is no peace in that approach , becuase there will always be another debate to resolve, another doubt to overcome, another teaching to prove. While I understand that truth in the revealed word of God is essential. It is the things that we cannot prove or settle that so often keep us in confusion, doubt and turmoil. It undermines peace, works against a simple faith. This morning for example, I listened to a sermon on TV and this Pastor said that he has not found anything that abrogates the practice of Tithe in the New Testament. I have been over this same ground many times and it amazes me that so many mainline faiths still preach this as an obligation and guilt trip, as well as a promise for God's favor. So who do you believe?, the teachers, the Bible, or let every man be convinced in his own heart, mind , thought. Always grounds to debate and stay in turmoil over the doctrines. Frankly, I cannot afford it. I am convinced that satan is fully at work watching us spin our wheels with conjectures and speculation. This is why I have repeatedly pleaded for simplicity. I am no match for the confusion and explaining the obscure. Jim | ||
| Dljc Registered user Username: Dljc Post Number: 428 Registered: 7-2010 |
Jim, With the Gap Theory in mind, you have to wonder why God would say it's very good at the end of the sixth day. And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day. (Gen 1:31) Basically what the Gap theory teaches is that God created the world in six days on top of a huge graveyard and called it "very good". See how the problems start even in the 1st chapter of the book! It just gets worse from there on out really. This theory is an attempt to explain the fossil record timeline. Think about this for a minute. Adam lived over 935 years after the Garden of Eden. If Adam and Eve lived up in that lifespan range, wouldn't the "wildlife" live that long or the equivalent lifespan? If they did, wouldn't they be huge? It only takes roughly 14 years to petrify wood. The fossil record is fallible God's Word isn't. I'll take His word over man's any day. It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man. (Psa 118:8) | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1114 Registered: 5-2007 |
Dljc, I can go as far as there was a pre existing (previously created) earth in the empty unformed state. No land, just water. I accept the 6 days creation as well. I also read an article that oil can be processed in a very short period of time from bio mass when subjected to pressure and heat. Not millions of years. Colleen, Thank You for the link. | ||
| Doc Registered user Username: Doc Post Number: 662 Registered: 2-2003  |
Coal too. Did you know that traces of radioactive carbon (C-14) have been found in many coal deposits? As it has a half life of only around 5.5 thousand years, that rather puts the mockers on the idea of coal deposits being hundreds of millions of years old. I have a PhD in natural science (chemistry) and would agree with the six-day creation too. I have been thinking about this subject once again. I dare say all of us are influenced by our past, and the things we would like to be true, and what we want to get away from. When I became a Christian around 30 years ago, I had never even heard of SDA, but I was just finishing my PhD studies in Chemistry. So I had no Sabbath issues at all, but I did have questions about how to reconcile modern science with the Bible. I soon came across books issued by the Creation Research Institute, Henry Morris, Duane Gish, et al. and I was totally fascinated by their views, that scientific evidence does not conflict with creation, though scientific theory certainly does. As someone familiar with the scientific method, I found the scientific evidence presented reasonably convincing. I still do. There are so many things that could be said here. The idea that the SDAs invented the idea of young earth creationism is really just not credible. For a start, the Bible teaches it, if you read Moses' account as it stands, without trying to read any preconceived ideas into the text. All of the founders of modern science in the 17th and 18th centuries, such as Bacon, Galileo, Kepler, Boyle, Pascal, Linnaeus, Newton, Dalton, and so on and so forth, were creationists. The reason they studied science was because they wanted to understand and systematise the world that God had created. It was only with the introduction of uniformitarian geology by Lyell and others in the late 18th century, and then evolution by Darwin, that this position was called into question. Theologians, accepting without question (naively in my opinion) that science had really refuted the young age of the earth, then came up with various ways of reconciling modern science with the Biblical view, such as the day-age theory, the gap theory, progressive creation, directed evolution, and I dare say there are others. If SDAs then reacted against this, they can only be credited with contributing to the revival of this view, but certainly not with its invention. Just my contribution, this late at night. God bless, Adrian |
