| Author | Message | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 772 Registered: 7-2004  |
Does it take to be born again? What theological implications do others see in the SDA practice of re-baptism for those who seriously sinned (although what sin isn't serious) and want to "start new". | ||
| Animal Registered user Username: Animal Post Number: 885 Registered: 7-2008  |
IMHO.... Physical,public baptism doesnt cause anyone to be born again or save anyone.Just my opinion..I am willing to learn otherwise if I am incorrect in my opinion. But the thief on the cross was promised by Christ that he would one day be in Paradise with Christ. And he wasn't baptized(as far as I know). Salvation is a gift..not a reward for something we do(baptism) ...Animal..so glad Jesus is my Redeemer!! | ||
| Free2dance Registered user Username: Free2dance Post Number: 284 Registered: 2-2010 |
I think the SDAs only have "John's baptism" (if that). So it would make sense that they would repeat it as often as they felt necessary. Check out this story in Acts: Paul found some desciples in Ephesus who had been taught and baptised by Apollos. A learned Jew who came to know about Jesus and according to Acts 18:25 he taught about Jesus accurately and with ferver in the synagogs where Priscilla and Aquila heard him teach. They invited him to their home and "explained the way of God more adaquately" (v.26). This indicates to me that though he taught accurately, he still didn't have the full picture. The thing that confuses me is that he did teach through scripture that Jesus was the messiah, but he somehow missed something imporant- he only new about Johns baptism. So Paul meets up with some of these desciples and here is their conversation: "... and (Paul) asked them, 'Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?' They answered, 'No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.' So Paul asked, 'Then what baptism did you receive?' 'John’s baptism,' they replied. Paul said, 'John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.' " Acts 19:2-5 So Paul then tells them what they need to know and baptises them into the Lord. Before this, they didn't have the whole picture. They didn't have the full message of truth. Paul gave it to them, and they recieved the Holy Spirit. Apollos taught, "aqurately" but he didn't teach the message in it's entirety because he didn't have it. In terms of being truly born again, scripture teaches that there is only one baptism: " There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. " Eph. 4:4-6 It looks to me like, in order to be baptised and sealed by the Holy Spirit we must be believing in the message of TRUTH (not a variation of it, not a half message or an added-to message). " And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory." Eph 1:13-14 I am no scholar, and I may have this all wrong. These are just the conclusions I came to when I recently went through Acts. What do you think? I wish we had more information about what exactly Apollos was teaching! | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 1662 Registered: 3-2009 |
Which one is the message of truth? The one preached by the Baptists, or the Methodists, or the Pentecostals, or the Catholics, or the SDA? They all claim to be preaching it from the Bible. When you get baptized in a church, is that church you're baptized in the one which has the "message of truth"? If it doesn't have the message of truth, would you get baptize in that church? How do you know it has "the message of truth"? What is absolutely necessary for that church to belief and not to believe in order to have the "message or truth"? Hec | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 778 Registered: 7-2004 |
You aren't baptized into a church, you are baptized into Christ. This is why it is generally a non-issue among Christian churches. | ||
| Freeatlast Registered user Username: Freeatlast Post Number: 731 Registered: 5-2002  |
That Jesus is God. That He died to pay the death penalty you deserve from God for your sinfulness. That He rose from the dead by Divine power. That His death reconciled you to God permanently. That you will live with Him forever. That you have been adopted as a child of God and have a share in the inheritance that only Jesus deserves. That God gave you credit for the righteousness of the spotless Lamb of God and that nothing can ever take this free gift away from you or separate you from the love of God. All you have to do is BELIEVE it. | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 1886 Registered: 6-2006  |
Hec, "Which one is the message of truth? The one preached by the Baptists, or the Methodists, or the Pentecostals, or the Catholics, or the SDA? They all claim to be preaching it from the Bible." I agree with Ric. You are baptized into Christ. If a church is baptizing you into itself, then you have a problem. In other words, if you came to my Lutheran Church, we wouldn't ask you to proclaim belief in Luther's 95 Thesis, or if Martin Luther was the spirit of prophesy in order to be baptized. (We don't even believe that!) No, you would be asked if you renounce the devil, believe that Jesus is your Savior, and that he died for your sins and was resurrected from the dead. Not sure if that's what you were implying with that comment, but hopefully you understand that most Christian denominations (which have sound Biblical doctrine and no "modern-day prophet") don't consider themselves to be the right church with the only true version of the truth. Leave that to the cults. Unless you've gone to every different Christian denomination and interviewed them on what they believe, please try not to clump all churches together in one pot with the SDAs.  Leigh Anne (Message edited by grace_alone on March 10, 2011) | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 12354 Registered: 12-2003  |
Hec, exactly what Leigh Anne and Rick said. The gospel is defined succinctly in 1 Cor 15:1-4. That is what we are asked to believe...when we place our faith in the truth of the gospel which means trusting Christ, we are born again. That is THE GOSPEL that is the core of all Christian denominations. Colleen | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 1665 Registered: 3-2009 |
Are you saying for example that a denomination/group which does not believe the traditional concept of the Trinity can be considered a bona fide Christian Church? Hec | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 1888 Registered: 6-2006 |
Hec, Yes. If a church portrays Jesus as someone else (the angel gabriel, maybe?) or as a lesser person than the father, do you think they're in line with the traditional or biblical concept of the trinity? What if they play down the Holy Spirit? Leigh Anne | ||
| Natofborg Registered user Username: Natofborg Post Number: 16 Registered: 3-2011 |
I kind of see re-bapism as being equivalent to re-newing one's wedding vows, especially after a married couple goes through a tough time in their marriage. | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 779 Registered: 7-2004 |
Free2Dance, You were heading down a similar path to my own thoughts on the subject. A person is only "born-again" once. We had a dead spirit that was made alive. However, without a belief in a human spirit, there is nothing that was dead and nothing that is made alive in the baptism of the Spirit. Therefore baptism becomes a work that we do, a bath that we take in order to clean off our sins. Baptism isn't required for salvation, as pointed out by the salvation of the thief on the cross. But baptism is the act that God chose as the activity associated with His bringing our spirits to life and adopting us into His family. He isn't limited in how and who He saves by choosing baptism as the entrance into the covenant, but He defined His design. | ||
| Freeatlast Registered user Username: Freeatlast Post Number: 734 Registered: 5-2002 |
I think rebaptism actually flies in the face of our security in Christ. This is not to say that someone baptized into a pseudo-Christian heterodox sect and/or false prophet(ess) (aka yours truly) might not want to consider being baptized into Christ for the first time. Pastor Mark Martin's mesage at the FAF weekend really convicted me to consider this as a public affirmation of my new position in Christ ALONE. I was baptized in an SDA sanctuary at age 12, and my vows have heresy all over them. I know that Jesus has been with me since I was a child, but I have never been baptized into Him ALONE. But I think that someone who has been baptized into Christ need not consider it again and, in fact, may be undermining the security that believers have by making such a public statement. | ||
| Free2dance Registered user Username: Free2dance Post Number: 292 Registered: 2-2010 |
Ric_b, looking back over the story, there is a HUGE difference between Apollos and SDAs. Apollos was teaching Christ accurately. They do not. I am begining to wonder if their baptisim is accompanied by a spirit of another kind, something that attempts to counterfeit the Holy Spirit. I remember feeling warm and calm during and after my baptism. I am not willing to say this is absolutely true- I have just wondered about it. Sounds superstitious, I know, but there certainly was some sort of spirit involved in EGW's visions. She was examined by a non-SDA medical doctor during one of her visions and he was so freaked out he literally ran out of the house and said he would have nothing to do with it. Her symptoms, when in vision, mimiced those of Joseph Smith and other. For more on this, check out this link: http://www.hope-of-israel.org/egwhite.htm Just sayin... | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 780 Registered: 7-2004 |
I'm not talking about re-baptism outside of a pseudo-Christian church. There are a whole different set of questions at work here. I was only trying to look at the issue of what the multiple SDA baptism folks might teach us about how "baptism" in SDAism may have some differences from Christian Baptism. | ||
| Joyfulheart Registered user Username: Joyfulheart Post Number: 820 Registered: 10-2006 |
I know an SDA woman who was rebaptized 6 (yes, six) times! She was rebaptized at just about every evangelistic series. She was wanted assurance of her salvation - something she was lacking because of the IJ which was taught frequently by one of the elders. It scared the pants of her. I confess to being scared at times, too. I think SDA's view rebaptism kind of like many Christians view a recommitment prayer. The difference is that I recommit myself to Christ in prayer when I am aware of sin and have made a decision to turn from it. It can happen multiple times in a week. My baptism in Christ is secure. I don't need to redo it. My Pastor will often say "remember your baptism and who you belong to" in sermons. I have never heard rebaptism taught in a Christian church. For the new people, I was born and raised in a Christian church. I got sucked into Adventism as an adult through a prophecy seminar and was there for six years. I never joined officially, but thoroughly believed everything but Ellen White's prophetic status and the Investigative Judgment during most of that time. (I never bought their interpretation of Daniel 7-9 because their dates don't work - looooooong, but good for assurance of one's salvation story.) | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 1748 Registered: 7-2007 |
The problem with the SDA church (and Roman Catholic and other cults) is that they teach that Jesus isn't sufficient. (They have a weak "Jesus" who cannot completely save.) I was baptized twice as an Adventist - the reason being was that I didn't think God forgave future sins! I didn't realize that when a person accepts Christ, ALL his sins are forgiven! (Besides that, which of our sins weren't future when Jesus died?!?) Which brings me to the point that as an Adventist, I couldn't fully accept Christ - meaning I thought I had to do "my part" - which was really scary because I was never sure just what was my part. Mostly I just settled for making sure I frequently asked forgiveness for all my sins. Ephesians 2:8,9 makes it clear that a believer is saved when he/she accepts Christ, (and it couldn't say that if future sins weren't forgiven as well; but I couldn't put my weight down on that because of what Ellen White said. (It wasn't until I found that Ellen White was a false prophet, that I could really put my weight down on the Bible.) So actually it doesn't take any baptism(s) to be born again. That's a work done solely by God's Spirit. Baptism is simply a symbol of what's already taken place in the heart. Dianne | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 1672 Registered: 3-2009 |
When I was a teacher, I was also a local elder at the church where we work. (The school had two constituent churches.) Being a local elder, I was able to baptize, and my kids wanted me to baptize them and so did I. So I made arrangement with the pastor and I baptized my kids. However, the formula that I used was somewhat different from the formula used by most pastors. Here is what I said, "Because you believe that Jesus is your savior, that He died for your sins and resurrected to secure your eternal life, and you accept him as your personal savior, I, as a missionary of the gospel, baptize you in the Name of the Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit." Nothing mention about the "church" or of following rules. Just what Jesus did for them, and their acceptance of that sacrifice. My question is, Was that a Christian baptism, or do they need to get baptized again? Hec | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 784 Registered: 7-2004 |
Hec, Just my opinion here, but that doesn't stop me-- That is a question for God in personal prayer. If you are convicted that you should be baptized again because of the serious heresies within the SDA system (even if you weren't affirming these errors in baptism) what are the consequences of ignoring God's calling? Likewise, if you are convinced through prayer that you don't need it, you are faced with the same question. Fellow believers can give you insight into their experiences, but we can't answer for another person. |
