| Author | Message | ||
| Free2dance Registered user Username: Free2dance Post Number: 281 Registered: 2-2010 |
PSALM 26 (ESV) Vindicate me, O LORD, for I have walked in my integrity, and I have trusted in the LORD without wavering. Prove me, O LORD, and try me; test my heart and my mind. For your steadfast love is before my eyes, and I walk in your faithfulness. I do not sit with men of falsehood, nor do I consort with hypocrites. I hate the assembly of evildoers, and I will not sit with the wicked. I wash my hands in innocence and go around your altar, O LORD, proclaiming thanksgiving aloud, and telling all your wondrous deeds. O LORD, I love the habitation of your house and the place where your glory dwells. Do not sweep my soul away with sinners, nor my life with bloodthirsty men, in whose hands are evil devices, and whose right hands are full of bribes. But as for me, I shall walk in my integrity; redeem me, and be gracious to me. My foot stands on level ground; in the great assembly I will bless the LORD. ________________ It appears to me, that David sees value in not consorting and sitting in the congregation of those who are in falsehood. What do you think? Am I taking this too far out of context? (Message edited by free2dance on March 10, 2011) | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 769 Registered: 7-2004  |
2 John 10-11 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house or give him any greeting, for whoever greets him takes part in his wicked works. There are errors that should preclude fellowship and worship. | ||
| Freeatlast Registered user Username: Freeatlast Post Number: 728 Registered: 5-2002  |
Free2dance, does it come as a surprise that there can be no Christian fellowship with those who preach another gospel? Paul said, "But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed." Galatians 1:8 In case "accursed" seems too harsh to accept, Paul says it again: "As we said before, so say I now again, If any [man] preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed." Galatians 1:9 (Message edited by freeatlast on March 10, 2011) | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 771 Registered: 7-2004 |
There is of course the Amplified Bible's take on the passage: As we said before, so I now say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel different from or contrary to that which you received [from us], let him be accursed (anathema, devoted to destruction, doomed to eternal punishment)! | ||
| Free2dance Registered user Username: Free2dance Post Number: 282 Registered: 2-2010 |
Yes! Those passages are so clear to me too! I read these passages a year ago and came to the conclusion that I cannot worship with SDA's. It actually became a conviction before I saw these passages when I was put back in SDA venues for a wedding of a family member. The oppresive spriit and strange reality made my skin crawl. I just couldn't remain there. The reason I posted this Psalm is because I know there are those who feel called to remain in the organization to bring them truth. I think scripture is clear that this is not our calling. I am curious about how they interpret these passages of scripture. My step-dad (he was in the army) used to give me an example of how important the company we keep is. He said, it is easier to be pulled off a chair than to pull someone else up onto the chair. It takes a work of GOD, not us, to bring people to truth. Our role is to remain submitted to God, and He tells us what this looks like in scripture. To me, scripture is clear on this issue. If there hadn't been a community of people who walked out in integrity I would have had no direction as I flailed my arms around in the dark looking for something to hold onto. I believe it is the act of leaving that will bring honest change. | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 773 Registered: 7-2004 |
Far be it from me to criticize anyone for preaching the Gospel. Paul preached the Gospel to Jews in synagogues and even to pagans in the midst of pagan temples. I don't think it is beyond possibility that God may call someone to stay and preach His truth boldly for a season. Just be sure that it is God's call and not your human desire. We can fool ourselves into thinking we are following God's call, when all we are really doing is meeting our own need to avoid confrontation. | ||
| Free2dance Registered user Username: Free2dance Post Number: 283 Registered: 2-2010 |
I completely agree with you, Ric_b. Well said. I'd like to add to that the fact that Paul, a deeply abiding believer, knew when it was time to move on. | ||
| Animal Registered user Username: Animal Post Number: 886 Registered: 7-2008  |
I agree with you both. Good responses indeed. | ||
| Freeatlast Registered user Username: Freeatlast Post Number: 732 Registered: 5-2002 |
Ric_b and Free2Dance, the important point I think you made is that Paul was firmly rooted in the Gospel once and for all delivered to the saints when he went back among the Jews to preach it. I think it is a very slippery slope for a newly born-again believer to remain within the SDA Church and try to "change it from within". As everyone on this forum who came out of Adventism knows well, the draw to return is incredibly powerful. The apologetics are slippery and the apologists are expert at muddying the waters, dodging, twisting, and laying on the guilt and shame very thick. I personally believe it is best for a new believer to completely separate from all Adventist influence until the Gospel has taken firm root. | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 781 Registered: 7-2004 |
Freeatlast, I also wouldnt recommend to anyone that they stay and try to reach people from within. But neither would I argue against God's call or have a Scriptural basis for telling a person they could not possibly be called to do that. Everything I have seen and know about transitioning SDAs would tell me that such a calling is the exception, not the rule. And I would expect that the Spirit would provide discernment among believers close to this person who could affirm the calling and provide the necessary support. | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 1749 Registered: 7-2007 |
Here's a verse: 2 Corinthians 6:14 "Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness?" Dianne | ||
| Natofborg Registered user Username: Natofborg Post Number: 21 Registered: 3-2011 |
But that's down right mean to refer to someone who is worshipping in error as an unbeliever. Just because they believe differently doesnt' give anyone the right to call them unbelievers or refer to them as darkness, accursed, or anything else bad. If what they believe is helping them, that is all that matters. It is more than I have. I just had that verse used against me, so that comment really hit below the belt... | ||
| Joyfulheart Registered user Username: Joyfulheart Post Number: 823 Registered: 10-2006 |
Natalie, Nobody wants to hear that someone thinks they're unbelievers when they really are followers of Jesus. People can be really cruel. I'm sorry you experienced that. We were all in varying degrees of error as Adventists. Most of us here certainly would never have called ourselves unbelievers during that time. During my Adventist years, following Jesus meant obeying rules. It's so different now. Following Jesus now is all about having a relationship with Him. The fear that I might be lost (bound for Hell because I couldn't obey the rules completely enough no matter how hard I tried) is COMPLETELY gone. I'm secure in knowing Jesus paid the penalty for EVERY ONE of my sins (past, present and future) at the cross. It's so completely different now! When you've been around here long enough you'll find out that certain words (like tithe and Ingathering) and certain verses that were misused really get some people riled up. We all have some deep healing to do as we get over things we were taught and experienced in the Adventist church. I love your honesty... Patty (Message edited by joyfulheart on March 12, 2011) | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 1752 Registered: 7-2007 |
Natofborg; I was an unbeliever in darkness for over 50 years. The Lord saved me out of the SDA church close to 5 years ago now. (Will be 5 years in about May or June.) It came as a total surprise to find out that the ONE TRUE CHURCH was false! (Hence my username Asurprise.) It doesn't bother me now that I was in darkness all that time. I'm just glad that I'm saved now!!!!!!!!!!! Getting saved from something I had thought was safe and secure, but was going to destroy me, gives me a kind of breathless feeling when I think about it. As an example, say you're standing at some overlook enjoying a beautiful view when the edge of the walkway crumbles beneath your feet, but just before you can plunge the 200 feet to the bottom of the canyon below, someone grabs your hand and pulls you to safety!!!!! You might get shaky afterward at the thought that you easily could have died! Dianne | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 1753 Registered: 7-2007 |
I'd like to add that it wouldn't matter how much the SDA church helped me, it couldn't save me. The SDA church is like a treasure chest of earthly money that's too heavy to put in the life boat, so the owner of the treasure chest, who can't take it with him, stays with the sinking ship; singing to the treasure chest and running his hands though the coins as the ship goes down. | ||
| Free2dance Registered user Username: Free2dance Post Number: 295 Registered: 2-2010 |
Natalie, I don't think the term "unbeliever" among Christians is meant as name calling. It doesn't mean that other people don't believe anything, it means they don't believe the truth of the gospel. Part of what makes the Life Assurance Ministries so crucial is the fact that millions of people are being led to believe that they are "believers" according to scripture's definition of a "believer" when in fact they believe a different gospel- which according to Galatians is no gospel at all. It is out of love for those who are being deceived by darkness (the evils forces in the heavenly realms Ephs. 6:12) that former SDAs work to expose the lies. When a group of believers (those who are in the kingdom of light) choose to worship with unbelievers (those in the kingdom of darkness according to scripture- no matter how "good" they are) how can they have communion? Different kingdoms, have different kings. Check these passages out: “ As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.” Eph 2:1-2 Hebrews defines, “disobedient” as “unbelieving”. Look up Hebrews 3 &4. "...giving joyful thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of his holy people in the kingdom of light. For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. “ Col 1:12-14 I understand how incredibly "mean" it sounds to say that those who do not believe like “we do” are a part of the kingdom of darkness. One of my fears when I left SDA’ism was that I was going to go from one group who believed they were the remnant to another group who believed the same way, never really arriving at truth. Part of what I resented about SDA’ism was their claim to all truth. The idea that Jesus is the only way into Heaven was very difficult on me till I learned to trust scripture and came to know Jesus in powerful ways. I could be wrong, but I don’t think anyone on this forum boasts about their own knowledge bringing them to truth. I think most (if not all) of us can say that it was an act of God humbling us and showing us we were wrong- breaking down our entire foundation (no walk in the park)- that brought us to His saving grace. You say, “If what they believe is helping them, that is all that matters. It is more than I have.” But I think you are far more blessed than they are. You desire truth. You are not satisfied with pretense. You are not comfortable without knowing what is real. This is a gift, though it doesn’t feel like it right now. What matters isn’t that we have a crutch to get through life, what matters is that we are brought to eternal life- no matter the cost. Being a “believer” is about learning the pure gospel and believing it. When you believe a perverted gospel like described in Galatians it nullifies the grace of God, and Christ died for nothing (Gal. 2:21). The thing that took me a long time to figure out is that just because a person believes they are a Christ follower, doesn’t mean that they are. Read Matthew 7:22-23 "Many will say to me on the day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you, away from me you evil doers!'" God holds us accountable to truth, whether we saw it for what it was or not. He held Pharo accountable for truth when he was lied to about Abraham's wife being his sister. Pharo believed and acted on a lie. Period. It sounds very black and white and extremely judgmental. It goes against what most American's understand compassion and tolerance to be. It is hard to hear...I know. It’s a hard message to give too, but people do it, even at the cost of their own lives. When we choose to believe the Bible is true, we have to believe even what we don't want to if the Bible says it. The gospel message isn't just about people being fulfilled and happy here on the Earth. That is what makes it unique to other religions. It’s not formula for health, wealth, and prosperity. It is the single most important message given to every person here on this planet. That is why so many people are willing to risk their lives and even freely give up their lives to spread it. I think the “mean” thing would be to allow people to go on being deceived because we don't want to hurt anyone's feelings. To just be glad that they are “happy” and we are saved and let everyone else do their own thing while we bask in our freedom. I totally understand your reaction to what you saw. It is a natural reaction. I would encourage you to read Ephesians, pray through the prayers there and own them for yourself. Read 1&2 Corinthians or Romans. You will be blessed. Also, if I am off base here, anyone else, feel free to chime in and correct me. But Natalie, know this. While it is only through Jesus that we enter the kingdom, that doesn't change the fact that ALL are invited. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 12364 Registered: 12-2003  |
I agree, Freed2dance. You've said it very well. "Believers" are people who have placed their faith in the Lord Jesus and have been born again by the Holy Spirit. Jesus told Nicodemus that no one could see the kingdom of heaven unless they were born again; flesh gives birth to flesh, He said, and Spirit gives birth to spirt (John 3:3-6). Sincerity doesn't take the place of life. Unless we have the life of Jesus in us through His indwelling Spirit—His promise to us when we believe in His finished work—we are not in His kingdom, and we are not saved from death. Jesus said that when we believe in Him we pass out of death into life (John 5:24). Moreover, he said that those who believe will not come into judgment, but those who have not believed are judged already (John 3:18). It's not a pejorative term when we say "unbelievers". It's a term that means we have an obligation to them, to bring the presence and life of Jesus to those we know who don't have His life. Knowing Jesus changes everything; He has resolved my continuous existential anxiety and has given me peace and confidence that I am not alone. Colleen | ||
| Natofborg Registered user Username: Natofborg Post Number: 23 Registered: 3-2011 |
Okay, so I'm an unbeliever based on what I understand from what has been written in all of the posts. I believe in God, but have major issues with this whole human, blood sacrifice demanded by God to "save" the world. If any religion other than Christianity were to make a claim like this, it would be labeled pagan and evil. God and Jesus have given me no peace, no assurance of "salvation" no help to even get my parents proper food so that they are not physically sick from not being able to afford to eat properly! Apparently God cares more about those damn sparrows everyone quotes about than He does about me and my poor parents. LIke I said, I'm going to hell anyway, but I refuse to believe that every SDA is decieved and is lost and need to be rescued! If they feel that their faith that they've acquired from the SDA church, Catholic Church, Lutheran, Jewish, Muslim or any other faith and given them the assurance that God loves them and they are not lost and have a purpose, then I say more power to them! I don't believe that no one in the SDA church, or any church for that matter, is lost based on their chosen denomination. And I don't believe that any one church has everything correct. Sorry I cannot respond to the texts provided, but using Bible texts to support a point of view just messes me up more becuase the Bible has yet to be translated into a language that makes any sense to me. I will not take part in this calling other denominations "unbelievers" so I think it is time for me to back out of this conversation. | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 1757 Registered: 7-2007 |
Natofborg; please check out this verse: Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins. Hebrews 9:22 In the beginning, Adam and Eve had the truth. After sin, there had to be an animal blood sacrifice which pointed forward to Jesus, because the wages of sin is death. Jesus came as the sacrifice for mankind. Otherwise we all would go to hell. Paganism came from Satan perverting that into human sacrifice. We're saved only the sacrifice of God's Son Jesus! Not human sacrifice. What you believe can cost you your life. The people in the twin towers who went up instead of down, died. And the people on the Titanic who believed the ship was unsinkable and refused to get into the life boats, died. It's the same with with eternal life. Religion is a counterfeit of the devil - it's man's effort to be right with God. Only a relationship with the God of Heaven through Jesus, will save you! | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 1758 Registered: 7-2007 |
Natofborg; I don't know why God allows people to suffer horribly in this life, why He allows a small child to be tortured and killed, why He allows a million people to starve to death, why He allows someone to die a long drawn out death from cancer. All I know is that He provided the way FOR EVERYBODY to live eternally with Him. I know that this world is full of sin and death, but I also know that this life - compared to the long tomorrow - is just a flash - just a snap of the fingers! Please ask God to reveal Himself to you and show you His truth. This is NOT our real life. This life is ONLY about deciding WHERE we will spend eternity. | ||
| Free2dance Registered user Username: Free2dance Post Number: 296 Registered: 2-2010 |
Natalie, the bottom line is that at some point you need to make a choice. We can all nurse the questions, insecurities, anger, or confusion within us that keep us destracted from truly seeking God, or we can stop talking and start reading. He is faithful. If you really are willing to do anything to know Truth, I think you might seriously consider Colleen's challange. Not one single person here can fill the need you have to know your creator. You need to choose whether or not you really want to understand and then take the next step. But I promise you, God cannot be known apart from Jesus, and Jesus is revealed to us through the Holy Spirit in scripture. Until you are ok with that and willing to give it an honest go, you will likely continue to have plenty to be upset about when you read what others Christians believe. Don't let other people's convictions cause you to chase your tail- just pick up your Bible. Throw your questions, anger, doubts, and confusion in God's lap and ask Him to deal with them. No human can make those go away for you, Natalie. We can support you through the process, but there has to be a process. What do you have to loose? Just ask Him to do what He does. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3630 Registered: 10-2004  |
Natalie, you wrote:
God did not "demand" a human blood sacrifice! God became a human blood sacrifice to pay His own penalty for our sin because He loves us! Jesus is God Himself. Your misunderstanding of this comes from the false things you were taught in Adventism. They taught you a counterfeit "Trinity" (for more on this, see my website here.)
That's because what we say is true, that Adventism is a deceptive, evil cult. They have taught you a false god and a false jesus. The SDA "God" and the SDA "Jesus" are nothing but demons/evil spirits (1 Corinthians 10:19-21)--of course they won't give you peace! They want you to remain in bondage and fear and confusion and anger and depression and slavery. But the true Jesus Christ who actually lived, died, and rose again (and whose words and deeds are recorded for us in the New Testament) is Himself the Truth and will set you free! "and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free." (John 8:32 NASB.) "Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself [Jesus Christ] likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15and might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives." (Hebrews 2:14-15 NASB.) The true Jesus Christ assures you: "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life." (John 5:24 NASB.) "Peace I leave with you; My peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you. Do not let your heart be troubled, nor let it be fearful." "These things I have spoken to you, so that in Me you may have peace. In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world." (John 14:27, 16:33 NASB.) Trust Him with your eternal destiny, Natalie! And you will receive peace and assurance and joy and abundant, eternal life, even in the midst of hardships and trials. Believe, Natalie. Just cast all your doubts and anxieties on Him and believe! "and after he brought them out, he said, 'Sirs, what must I do to be saved?' 31They said, 'Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household." (Acts 16:30-31 NASB.) Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on March 13, 2011) | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 12371 Registered: 12-2003 |
Well said, Free2dance and Jeremy. Jeremy's right: God did not demand a human blood sacrifice; He became a human blood sacrifice in order to save humanity. He paid the price demanded by His own laws of existence and creation. Colleen | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 789 Registered: 7-2004 |
Well summarized Colleen. God created mankind knowing that mankind would sin. God created mankind knowing that God would have to become man and die a painful death to redeem us from our sin. God knew all this and still chose to make mankind. It isn't about what God demanded, it is about what God gives. (Message edited by ric_b on March 19, 2011) | ||
| Honestwitness Registered user Username: Honestwitness Post Number: 1126 Registered: 7-2005  |
This is an excellent thread. Just when I think I might not come to this forum so often and that I should spend my time doing something else on the internet, I find a thread like this one. It's threads like this that feed me and keep me coming back for more. You guys are amazing! | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 12400 Registered: 12-2003 |
Honestwitness...we love you! Praying.... Colleen |
