| Author | Message | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3624 Registered: 10-2004  |
While searching the other day for an article that I linked to on another thread, I came across an interesting statement by Christian apologist Robert Bowman, where he applied John 5:19 in a way I had never seen before. Of course, this is a text that Adventists (and other cultists) love to twist to try to make Jesus seem powerless. But Bowman used it to show that Jesus could not have sinned!
So Jesus could only have sinned if He saw the Father sinning! (Of course, some SDAs do say that the Father can choose to sin, also. Sigh...) Jeremy | ||
| Free2dance Registered user Username: Free2dance Post Number: 276 Registered: 2-2010 |
Thank you for sharing, Jeremy! This is good! | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 12347 Registered: 12-2003  |
Jeremy, I'd never thought of that, either! Thank you for sharing this! Colleen | ||
| Indy4now Registered user Username: Indy4now Post Number: 1022 Registered: 2-2008  |
Although Jeremy, Even if the Father could "choose" to sin, He didn't and He doesn't... so Jesus wouldn't have either. Great point to bring out of this verse. vivian | ||
| Joyfulheart Registered user Username: Joyfulheart Post Number: 821 Registered: 10-2006 |
If one of God's attributes in holiness, and that's who is - can He choose to sin? Just thinking... | ||
| Alison1 Registered user Username: Alison1 Post Number: 71 Registered: 10-2010 |
Boy, this idea is mind-boggling. I can't fathom the idea. I've always thought of a holy God and nothing but. So my next question is did Jesus have the prepensity to sin? Or is it because he took on our sinful natures. This is one area that I would like some more clarification from other members here who really know this material well. Feedback, please. | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 2421 Registered: 5-2007  |
God cannot and could not sin. Titus 1:2 and Heb. 6:18 declare God cannot lie. Reason...God does not sin. Reason...he is holy! Jesus has, and always had, all the attributes of the Father. This is what Jesus said of himself: The Father and I are one.” (John 10:30 HCSB) Fearless Phil | ||
| Alison1 Registered user Username: Alison1 Post Number: 73 Registered: 10-2010 |
Thanks for the further explanation. I'm still leaning here. And sometimes I need further explanations. So don't mind me if I ask this of anyone. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 12419 Registered: 12-2003 |
Alison, Colossians 1:19 and 2:9 state that all the fulness of deity dwelt in Jesus bodily. He did not set aside any of His "God-ness" except His glory and position with the Father during His time on earth. God cannot sin; Jesus, therefore, could not have sinned or otherwise failed in His mission. Do I understand this? No. It is too big for me; it is an eternal reality, and I'm not in eternity. I'm stuck in three dimensions and time, and at any rate, the incarnation is a one-time, unrepeatable mystery that God did for the purpose of resolving our sin. We just have to know and believe that Jesus, as fully God, could not have failed in His mission. God cannot lie; God cannot sin. Colleen | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 1798 Registered: 7-2007 |
In order to be "the second Adam," Jesus had to have a perfect sinless nature. He didn't have a sin nature. All of us have been born with a sin nature because Adam sinned and we inherited a sin nature. Jesus, being fully God, definitely had free choice. Satan's temptations wouldn't have been temptations if Jesus couldn't have sinned. That shows how powerful He is, that He could have sinned, but didn't. If He didn't have the ability to sin, He wouldn't have had power to choose. If somebody CAN'T sin, they are a robot and don't have free will. Which takes more power? Being able to sin and not sinning? Or NOT being able to sin and not sinning? Jesus didn't have an agenda of His own when He came. He came to do the Father's will. When He died, He took on our sins, but not our sin nature. He became sin for the human race. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3633 Registered: 10-2004 |
Titus 1:2 NASB: "in the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised long ages ago," Asurprise, are you saying that this means that God does not have "free will" and/or is a "robot"? Jeremy | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 1801 Registered: 7-2007 |
It's the same sort of thing where George Washington said: "I cannot tell a lie. I cut down the cherry tree." Jesus couldn't have been tempted if He couldn't have sinned, because you can't be tempted to do something you "cannot" do. Then what was the struggle in the Garden of Gethsemane all about? And in the desert after the 40 days of fasting? Satan wouldn't have bothered if Jesus couldn't have been tempted. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 12424 Registered: 12-2003 |
Asurprise, there is a mystery here which we can't in any way figure out or explain. We have to hold it in tension without giving in to the temptation to explain how it works. Jesus was fully human; He was truly tempted. Jesus was fully God; God cannot lie; there is no sin in Him; God cannot sin. Jesus was tempted exactly as we are, and He is fully God and could not sin. How? I haven't a clue! We have to bow to the fact that God is unable to sin, that Jesus was different from sinless Adam. We have to hold both of these facts concurrently and know that at no time was Jesus' mission in doubt. We are not told HOW these things can be. We are told Who Jesus Is, and we know that He is fully human and fully God. This doesn't mean that either His humanity or His deity was diluted. They were both FULL. There's just no way to explain that...but there's also no way to think Jesus was subject to failure in any sense. It's a mystery we have to hold humbly and say, "Thank you, Father!" Colleen | ||
| Borninchrist Registered user Username: Borninchrist Post Number: 362 Registered: 1-2009  |
Asurprise brings a very logical point into this discussion. It's so natural for us to try to analyze and explain things, our human logic requires it... To me this is one of the BIG mysteries in the bible just like the Trinity... I don't understand it, but I accept it by faith. -george | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 815 Registered: 7-2004  |
This is one of the challenges of accepting by faith that Scripture is completely true. Sometimes Scripture not only defies our logic, but simply can't be accepted as it reads if we insist on using our great logical minds to define God. I can live with a God who is bigger than my logic can grasp. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 12427 Registered: 12-2003 |
Oh yes, Rick...exactly. Well said. George, your post reminds me of the day my dad died in 2001. My mom and I sat in the room where he had recently passed away and waited for the undertaker to arrive. I had come to believe a person's spirit went to God upon death, but as I sat there, I was hit with a load of intellectual doubt: How do I know that's true? There's no "proof"...who's to say it's so? Maybe it's just a way people have decided to understand things so they don't feel hopeless... and on and on. Finally, I had to remember 2 Cor 5:1-10 and Phil. 1:22-23, and I distinctly remember the decision I made. It had nothing whatsoever to do with logic; logic would have steered me toward unbelief. I had to choose to trust the words of Scripture as they were written without explaining them away. Either I accepted Scripture as it was, or I became my own "bottom line". If I took the words of Scripture and chose to believe them, I could know that my dad was with the Lord. (He was a believer and had left Adventism about three years before.) I decided that my experience up to that point had been based on accepting Scripture; we had left Adventism because of Scripture. I would have to accept Scripture in this instance as well. So I did. Interestingly, after acting in obedience to God's word even in my head, the reality of what Scripture said became increasingly real. I have no doubt at all that it tells us the truth about our spirits...and I have no doubt at all that we can and must believe it, even if we logically cannot explain it. Colleen |
