| Author | Message | ||
| Cortney Registered user Username: Cortney Post Number: 265 Registered: 8-2006 |
I don't know what everyone else's experience was in the Adventist church or what drew them to it, but for me what drew me to it was their zeal for Biblical truths (what they believe to be truths). Anyway as far as the Sabbath- I don't know that I was really convicted to follow it, but mostly had guilt for not keeping it based on what I was being taught by the members and Adventist family members. Anyway it seems most Adventist I know boast on the fact they are the remnant because they keep the Sabbath- even the more liberal Adventists who don't teach EGW remain devoted to the Sabbath. A majority of Adventist will readily agree one is not justified by the Law (10 commandments), yet at the same time they hold tight to the Sabbath and use this as a form of justification- "we can't be wrong, we have the sabbath truth"- mentality. And the fact that their prophet capitalized on the sabbath, even going so far as to say that it would become a "salvation issue" and using this false understanding as a platform to justify who they are (the remnant) and putting themselves above all other denominations because of the sabbath. My question is: How do Adventists get around the book of Romans at all? Esp. specific chapters and verses like these: Chapter 9: 30-33 30 What then are we to say? Gentiles, who did not strive for righteousness, have attained it, that is, righteousness through faith; 31 but Israel, who did strive for the righteousness that is based on the law, did not succeed in fulfilling the law. 32 Why not? Because they did not strive for it on the basis of faith, but as if it were based on works. they have stumbled over the stumbling stone, 33 as it is written, "See, I am laying in Zion a stone that will make people stumble, a rock that will make them fall, and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame." Chapter 10: 1-13 1 Brothers and sisters, my heart's desire and prayer to God for them is that they may be saved. 2 I can testify that they have a zeal for God, but it is not enlightened.3 For being ignorant of the righteousness that comes from God, and seeking to establish their own, they have not submitted to God's righteousness. 4 For Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes. 5 Moses writes concerning the righteousness that comes from the law, that "the person who does these things will live by them." 6 but the righteousness that comes from faith says, "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend to heaven?' 7 or 'Who will descend into the abyss?'" 8 But what does it say? "The word is near you, on your lips and in your heart" 9 because if you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For one believes with the heart and is so justified, and one confesses with the mouth and so is saved. 11 the scripture says, "No one who believes in him will be put to shame." 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; the same Lord is Lord of all and is generous to all who call on him. 13 For, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved." I'm sure most of you have already understood this, for me I am just beginning to understand more clearly the Old Covenant=physical works- keeping of the laws, circumcision, food regulations, separation, sacrifices and etc. On the other hand, the New Covenant= the spiritual- the Holy Spirit, faith, love, mercy, grace, no circumcision, no works of the law or sacrifices, no separation etc.. Christ's ministry began at the time he was baptized, the Spirit descended upon Him and he worked miracles and showed love and mercy- not because they were taught or because of the law, but because He had understanding of the Spirit. Christ's death/sacrifice was a physical act, but the resurrection was the spiritual. The closing of the Old/physical and beginning of the New/spiritual- hence why the Holy Spirit was sent on pentecost. So if this could be understood, I can see why Paul became so frustrated when the Gentiles began to accept/follow Jewish customs/laws- while still claiming to follow Christ. Paul clearly had understanding that faith is spiritual (alive) and law is physical (not living)- if we are to live by faith (the spiritual) then we are to have understanding of what faith is and what the law is. The law was a guardian, the law pointed out sin, it was written to see and to follow- a physical act of obedience. The spiritual however is written in the heart and is understood and felt- not written, seen and carried out like the law. The spiritual (Holy Spirit) is what began and annointed Christ's ministry on earth and gave renewal, love, and life (literally- the Spirit is alive and gives life through Christ). The physical (the law) pointed out no one could be perfectly obedient and gave no life/renewal because it was not alive- it was there to instruct and to be followed-completely- or death. The law was not living. My understanding is that the law was good and had a specific purpose for a time- though it was dead. Through Christ came the Spirit- the living-received only by grace though faith. If you understand this you can understand why righteousness is by faith only- Christ is our righteousness- the Spirit gives us new life. Romans 8: 1-11 1 There is therefor now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and death. 3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do: by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and to deal with sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 so that the just requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on things of the Spirit. 6 To set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. 7 For this reason the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God's law- indeed it cannot, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh; you are in the Spirit, since the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. 10 But if Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of Righteousness. 11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will give life to your mortal bodies also through his Spirit that dwells in you. So we are to understand that we are a new creation in Christ-justified by faith (belief in Christ as Savior and Lord) because of the living Spirit residing in us. The law did not give life or justify us, it showed how far apart we were from God- it was a ministry of death, literally- but is was just and good for a time serving a purpose. The law showed death and the Spirit gave life. The law prepared man for something better- the need to be shown mercy and forgiveness and new life. Christ died to the physical (law) to give us the spiritual- he fulfilled all the law by showing mercy and forgiveness and most of all love. Therefor the law instituted by God did serve a purpose-to instruct the mind and prepare the way for reconciliation to God. The law did not give any form of justification or righteousness, that was not it's purpose. My frustration is SDA videos sent to me anonymously- trying to convince me of a righteousness without life/Christ- the sabbath truth. How is it that Adventist get around or misunderstand what Paul is teaching/establishing in Romans? You can tell them until your blue in the face, but it always comes back to the law. How did you feel about the teachings in Romans as an Adventist? | ||
| Freeatlast Registered user Username: Freeatlast Post Number: 725 Registered: 5-2002  |
It's all in the spin... Adventism will boldly claim that they do not keep the 10 Commandments TO BE saved, but that they keep them BECAUSE they are saved. Thus, it can absorb all of the passages you posted with a simple dismissive, "Paul is talking about Lawkeeping FOR salvation, rather than Lawkeeping FROM salvation." My mother illustrated this best. "Son, we are saved by grace but those who have grace keep the Law." Here is an excerpt from OFFICIAL Adventist Belief #19: "...Salvation is all of grace and not of works, but its fruitage is obedience to the Commandments. This obedience develops Christian character and results in a sense of well-being. It is an evidence of our love for the Lord and our concern for our fellow men. The obedience of faith demonstrates the power of Christ to transform lives, and therefore strengthens Christian witness..." (Message edited by freeatlast on March 09, 2011) (Message edited by freeatlast on March 09, 2011) | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 12345 Registered: 12-2003  |
Freeatlast...you're right about the Adventist "spin" on Romans. Cortney, I understand and share your amazement at what Romans actually teaches. It is completely "worldview-shifting"! Colleen |
