| Author | Message | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 724 Registered: 7-2004  |
You are more than welcome to use anything that I post. Keep in mind those quotes are from Andreasen rather than from EGW herself. | ||
| Free2dance Registered user Username: Free2dance Post Number: 239 Registered: 2-2010 |
Thank you for the clarification. =) | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3607 Registered: 10-2004  |
Here is a quote from the article I was referring to above, which is entitled "The Cosmic Controversy: World View for Theology and Life," by SDA scholar Dr. Norman R. Gulley, published in the Fall 1996 Journal of the Adventist Theological Society:
(Notice also the anti-Trinitarian theology evident in the above quote.) Jeremy | ||
| Free2dance Registered user Username: Free2dance Post Number: 240 Registered: 2-2010 |
WOW! Thank you for sharing this, Jeremy!! | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 9028 Registered: 3-2004  |
We get to vote!!!!!! What heresy!!! | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 725 Registered: 7-2004 |
SDAs will often comment on how the Great Controversy is such a beautiful framework for understanding Scripture. But we see just how sick and twisted of a heresy it is. We vote to decide who will rule the universe. We save God by our perfect lives. Words can not begin to describe just how disgusting this doctrine has become to me. There is nothing beautiful about blasphemy. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 12300 Registered: 12-2003  |
Amen, Rick. Jeremy, thanks for the Gulley quote. You're absolutely right about the anti-Trinitarian theology evident above, and this quote shows that in the Adventist "plan of salvation" (boy, I hate that phrase...), Satan plays a central role. I think this fact is what is distilling more and more for me: Adventist soteriology revolves around Satan and his supposed claims against God. Every single aspect of Adventist soteriology evolves from Satan needing an answer; Satan needing his freedom; God being bound to respect Satan's criticisms, and Jesus, who in Adventism is not the Lord God Almighty, being on a level playing field with Satan in a battle for the soul of every human. The notion of the "watching universe" (so well refuted by Martin Carey in this article) makes Satan a universal star. He and Jesus are fighting for the allegiance of ALL creation on ALL known and unknown planets, and their allegiance will mean either God is "vindicated", or Satan is proven to be correct. This decision is made by us humans. God's fairness and righteousness is proven or disproven by US, and Satan is the one who initiated the conflict. The entire worldview of Adventism is that the bottom line of reality is not our Triune God who revealed Himself in the Lord Jesus and through His inerrant word. Rather, "Adventist reality" is that Satan has raised legitimate doubts about whether or not God is righteous, good, and "fair". Adventists live their lives on the basis of Satan's supposed claims, not on the basis of God's clear words. Ellen's "insights" could only come from one place: Satan. As Louis Talbot says in the third part of his essay, "Why Seventh-day Adventism Is Not Evangelical" which will appear in the next Proclamation!:
Think about it: the Great Controversy worldview says Satan raised legitimate doubts about God and His law (which is God's identity), Satan has engaged the loyal human Jesus who represents God in an unfinished fight for human loyalty, Jesus managed to keep the law, thus earning the right to go to heaven and plead for humans, and when all is said and done, the loyal Jesus will get to place the sins of the saved right back on Satan so he can take them with him to the lake of fire and cleanse heaven. The Great Controversy is all about Satan. God is his "monkey", spending human history answering Satan's legitimate accusations. We are part of Satan's scenario. The blasphemy is unbelievable. Colleen | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 9029 Registered: 3-2004 |
It is blasphemy and treason toward Jesus Christ. Diana L | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 1727 Registered: 7-2007 |
Hec; when I was an Adventist, I would have been horrified to think that SDAs had ever believed that Jesus wasn't God! In my over-50 years as an Adventist, I never heard a preacher say such a thing! I think it was during the time that I was studying my way out that I found a quote from Ellen White, where she clearly infers that Jesus isn't God. I went down to the local Adventist Book Center and bought the book. The quote is in the first couple of pages of the first chapter - about page 17 & 18 of this little book. It's called "Spirit of Prophecy" - volume 1. I had never even heard of such a book before. I had always been taught that ALL EGWs book were called "Spirit of Prophecy!" | ||
| Martinc Registered user Username: Martinc Post Number: 233 Registered: 9-2006 |
Great Controversy theology portrays a hesitating, self-protecting, political God, watching his cosmic popularity polls. His sovereignty is very much in doubt. His political opponent is a tragic hero who demands that everything be fair, and who makes it abundantly clear that nobody can ever be perfect. He will finally take all the punishment for our sins. How would I vote? Hmmm...How about none of the above! Martin C | ||
| Free2dance Registered user Username: Free2dance Post Number: 241 Registered: 2-2010 |
This is all so chilling. I read these things now and I see so clearly how evil it is. I feel an icy prickle up my spine. I think of how deceived my family is, and I was. Someone mentioned The Truman Show, during FAF weekend. I found this clip and felt myself relating with Truman. Those who say we leave because we are just angry and disgruntled have no idea how difficult this journey is. All we can do is pray that God will allow them to see the "reality" they live in and believe in. If you have a minute, I think you might enjoy this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UyhnI1QiGNw | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 1872 Registered: 6-2006  |
After reading through these posts and understanding the GC garbage, it amazes me that anyone would still want to hang on to EGW. I've heard the arguments "she was a good woman and just misunderstood", or "she still wrote many valuable things". If you think about it, Charlie Sheen might say something that's true or perhaps even valuable, but really, would you take anything he says seriously? It only takes one thing for a prophet to get wrong before the Lord tells us not to be afraid of them (Deut 18:22). She had volumes.  Leigh Anne | ||
| Cloudwatcher Registered user Username: Cloudwatcher Post Number: 375 Registered: 5-2009  |
Leigh Anne, what I hear most from SDAs is that she helped them understand the Bible and her writings have helped them with various situations/problems in their lives. I agree with you that that is no reason to revere her. God will use anything and everything to draw us to Himself. Glory goes to Him, not the "thing." I''m always fascinated to know how these ideas are taught to children. Does anyone remember how they learned, as a child, about this great controversy between Christ and Satan? Most people will claim that they've never read EGW, yet we all somehow internalized this worldview. | ||
| Free2dance Registered user Username: Free2dance Post Number: 243 Registered: 2-2010 |
Cloudwatcher, I learned the doctrine the same way I learned to speak English. No one sat me down and taught me the rules of English, I just picked it up by listening and copying. It wasn't until school that I began to learn these rules of reading and writing. It was the same with SDA'ism. I just "picked it up" and as I was in SDA schools I got tid bits of SDA history and doctrine here and there- most of which made me uncomfortable. I thought I could ignore the stuff that made me uncomfortable and remain in the religion without those things affecting me. Talk about "division of the law". There was the practice of SDA'ism, and the theology of SDA'ism. Somehow I had it divided in my head. I could practice without believing the other "half of the law". I think that the spirit of Adventism really did more of my teaching than the adults in my life did. | ||
| Free2dance Registered user Username: Free2dance Post Number: 244 Registered: 2-2010 |
One other thing. Arther Maxwell books have a lot of the GC theme going on in the backround of his sotries. I remember beautiful pictures of guardian angels. Same with "My Bible Friends" which I used to read to my son. There is actually a picture and poem of a little boy kneeling beside his bed asking forgiveness for the sins he did that day and Jesus saying he believed his repentance and to not do them again tomorrow. It's subtle, but it fits and feeds the GC teachings. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 12303 Registered: 12-2003 |
I agree with Free above. I learned it by osmosis, basically--in fact, I internalized it with my "mother's milk", really. The Adventist great controversy worldview defines reality--not just spiritual reality, but physical reality and relational reality and emotional reality. So I learned that "God is love," but that meant that if I did my best, God loved me. I learned that Satan was a bad, bad angel...he hated God and accused Him of being mean and unfair, and Jesus felt so bad about how Satan incited us to doubt God, that he came to help us have the power to be good. I learned that I was really special, in a general way, because I kept the Sabbath. This fact set me apart from the children next door, and even though they were really "nice", they were basically "wrong" deep down inside, and I couldn't be more than superficially friendly with them. They MIGHT entice me to be curious about eating pork and drinking lots of kool-aid or soda pop and other sinful behaviors that would taint my specialness. (I know...this sounds horrid...but this is how I understood things when I was five and six...) I had to remember "who I was" and not trust them. I learned that my neighbors, who were really, really nice people, nevertheless were deluded and were either rejecting truth or hadn't yet been privileged to hear it clearly because they traipsed off to church on Sunday. So for this reason also I had to be reserved and not think of them as real "friends". They were "neighbors". I learned I had better facts than those really nice neighbors, too, because I knew that when someone died, it was a comfort to know that they were completely unconscious until the resurrection. I learned from "Uncle Arthur" that I had to be really, really good...and I couldn't be selfish or tell lies or be rebellious in my heart or sneak anything or I would be found out and either punished, humiliated, or lose something I wanted. I learned from these stories that God doesn't love me when I'm naughty...and I learned that from Sabbath School also, I believe. I had to be good for God to love me and bless me, and if I apologized, He would smile on me again... I was taught as a very young child that daydreaming was wrong...and I remember sitting in school, staring out the window and letting my mind begin to wander, and forcing myself to get back to reality because I would sin if I daydreamed. I learned, along with the daydreaming thing, that fiction was not truth, and it was bad for me and for my thought life to read fiction. At the same time, I wasn't expressly forbidden to read it, but I was told it was not fit to read, so when I read it and loved it, I was deeply conflicted...a conflict I kept imposing on myself through my teens, because I read some pretty gripping fiction...guilt-ridden all the while. And I KNEW that all these things were sins, and I KNEW that these sins could make me lost, and I KNEW that I had to confess every single sin I could remember because even wasting my time was a sin (a very convenient rule to teach a young child who tended to procrastinate...). So I grew up with a general picture of an active Satan who was always trying to tempt me to sin, a Jesus who I ALWAYS pictured as pretty meek and mild and a bit insipid...sort of what I eventually identified as a demi-god type of person. I knew God was love, but I pictured him as pretty remote, expecting me to obey all His commands (including not daydreaming or reading fiction or thinking secular thoughts on His Day) so He could come back. Yes, I learned from earliest childhood that He was waiting for us so He could come back. And I believe a LOT of these things were instilled in me from cradle-roll Sabbath School. I remember a SS teacher I had in kindergarten who caused me intense fear and worry by the things she taught us. And then there were Uncle Arthur's Bedtime Stories and the Bible Stories...all of which are told with a GC twist. I learned a Great Controversy worldview like I learned grass was green. Because Adventists are NOT "regular Christians", they have their own products: books for every age and taste, a closed community, food, schools, traditions (like popcorn on Saturday night, coupling that enticing smell with the excitement of SUNDOWN!), and so forth. Everything the church IS, according to the biblical record and the experience of local bodies of believers, Adventism counterfeits. So we had Adventist fellowship; Adventist "church"; Adventist food and potlucks...Adventist everything, and we couldn't really participate in those things freely with anyone else because we would risk being defiled, either by eating food that WE KNEW wasn't fit for food, or by encountering alien ideas. Colleen | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3608 Registered: 10-2004 |
Hey Colleen, it sounds like you grew up in a cult or something!  Jeremy | ||
| Martinc Registered user Username: Martinc Post Number: 234 Registered: 9-2006 |
Exactly, Colleen, your description of the closed community that lived, worked, and played with all those "nice" but "wrong" people, yet stayed closed to outsiders, hits our experience. Our whole lifestyle, lived in continual fear of contamination, really describes our childhood. At our house in Tacoma Park, MD, we had Catholic neighbors nextdoor, and we played with their kids. When the smell of roast chicken wafted through our windows from nextdoor, we would tell mom how good it smelled, and she would try hard to make some "mock chicken" to make us happy (Our poor SDA mom!). For everything the "neighbors" had, we had to conjure up a righteous counterfeit, or imagine having it. We always had something cleaner and better than they had, and if we stayed "clean," we might be rewarded with long life. Of course, we felt guilty about enjoying all these mock sins, because if we were really converted, we wouldn't need them. But, we figured mock sins were better than enjoying the pleasures of Satan directly. Like you said, the Great Controversy was played out in every part of our lives. Martin C | ||
| Freeatlast Registered user Username: Freeatlast Post Number: 716 Registered: 5-2002  |
Hey Martin, I grew up in Takoma Park from 1964-1975. Born in Washington Adventist Hospital (then Sanitarium), attended Sligo SDA Church and Sligo Elementary from 1st - 4th grade. Later, my father Don Tripp taught at Takoma Academy from around 1987 until he retired in about 1999. When did you live there? (Message edited by freeatlast on March 02, 2011) (Message edited by freeatlast on March 02, 2011) | ||
| Mkfound Registered user Username: Mkfound Post Number: 35 Registered: 1-2011 |
I have never fully read the book GC, however, like Colleen mentioned, I learned it by osmosis. To summarize what I learned: God created us, but the devil 'made a mess' in Heaven. God kicked him out to this world, where he made Adam and Eve fall. When they did, this was God's chance to have all humankind show that they could in fact keep His Law, and show him to be a fair and just God. Therefore, if we loved God, and wanted to prove him right in front of all the 'aliens' watching, then we would keep his Law. That just sounds so crazy as I write it!!! How this played out in my life as a child: my first 5 years of school were at an SDA academy. Perfect for indoctrination. I pretty much had no SDA friends at that time. However, as money became tight--my parents eventually sent me to public school. I distinctly remember cautiously making friends with other children, and upon finding out their religious background, would think of how they would betray me to the authorities when sunday law was passed. One of my friends was Catholic, and she was a nice girl, but deep down, I was the most scared of her. The mark of the beast itself, I thought. These thoughts became less and less intense as I grew older, but whenever I really liked a person, as a friend, who was not SDA, the thought would come into my mind, and I believe I would distance myself a bit from them because, after all, it would be pretty bad when the would report me to the sunday law authorities after all this friendship.  What a sad thought complex. I am so sorry for thinking badly of those childhood friends now, and that my reactions to their kindness were probably colored by the fears I felt. |
