| Author | Message | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 732 Registered: 7-2004  |
This teaching is not unique to SDAism, but it certainly has a central place in SDAism that I haven't seen anywhere else. But the question I want to put forward is whether it is a Biblically accurate statement. I have a number of thoughts on the subject, but I'd love to throw it out for some discussion. Is this a Biblically-based understanding, or is it another falsehood of SDAism that needs to be left behind? | ||
| Freeatlast Registered user Username: Freeatlast Post Number: 718 Registered: 5-2002  |
This doctrine is yet one more way that Adventism discounts Jesus Christ in order to mark up the teachings of Ellen. JESUS is the "transcript of God's character! "God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of [his] glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; Hebrews 1:1-3 "Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou [then], Shew us the Father?" John 14:9 | ||
| Jonvil Registered user Username: Jonvil Post Number: 506 Registered: 4-2007 |
Never gave this a moments thought before, so off the top on my little pointed head I believe that the various aspects of His character are inexhaustible, I don't believe that the infinite God's character can be summarized or 'transcribed' Having said that, I do believe that the big 10 reveal that God is diametrically opposed to the standards of this world. What's 'normal' here is anathema to God, which gives us limited insight of His character. John | ||
| Jonvil Registered user Username: Jonvil Post Number: 507 Registered: 4-2007 |
To finite man Jesus is the tip of an infinite iceberg, our comprehension is extremely limited, but I don't 'think' this is what Ric is looking for. Ric?? | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 735 Registered: 7-2004 |
What I am looking for is understanding better how some SDA world views linger in our theological thinking without even realizing it. And how different people have come to understand and move past these barriers. As I contemplate the idea that Jesus is the transcript of God's character, I am left wondering how God can be the transcript of God. That Jesus is the transcript was my first reaction as well, but I see the challenge in that approach. | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 2759 Registered: 8-2004  |
Jesus isn't just the 'transcript' of God's character, He is God Himself. The 'big ten,' however, are rather hard to see as a transcript of anything since they are a set of admonitions and prohibitions - not an adequate description of even a human's character. Take the first commandment: "Thou shalt have no other God's before me." Er, this is God's character, or a reminder to keep Him as our first priority? Or the others: no graven images? taking His name in vain? Remembering the Sabbath? Not killing, stealing, or lying? Not coveting or committing adultry? Sounds to me like directions. Not bad, mind you, but not a being's description, let alone a description of our omnipotent God. If you want to find an actual character description you can find at least a partial listing elsewhere in the law however, in Exodus 34: "And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, long suffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty . . ." But even these character traits, or attributes, if you will, only begin to discuss who God is. They certainly aren't the definitive description (which one would assume they would if they was the Transcript)! (Message edited by helovesme2 on March 03, 2011) | ||
| Freeatlast Registered user Username: Freeatlast Post Number: 720 Registered: 5-2002 |
Jesus is the definitive expression of God to mankind. God with us. Transcript doesn't do Him justice. He IS God. There is nothing the Law reveals about God that is not most fully revealed in Jesus. | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 2762 Registered: 8-2004 |
AMEN Freeatlast!! | ||
| Jdpascal Registered user Username: Jdpascal Post Number: 269 Registered: 10-2003 |
This view of the 10 commandments =character of God lingered with my understanding of the Bible for a long time but I have to go in the direction taken by Freeatlast on this one. It is a view that has crossed my mind many times as I have learned about the new covenant. Hebrews 1:1-3 and John 14:9 are a description of Jesus and what he was prophesied to do by the “law and the prophets”. That Colossions 2:16-17 says that certain instructions and commandments were ‘shadows of things to come’ is born out in the teachings of Jesus on many of the 10 commandments that he restated in various discourses. From what I understand, the phrase '10 commandments' is a rendering of the original language '10 words'. Jesus is the 'word made flesh' that came and dwelt among us. Jesus is the reality of the first 4 commandments and the last 6 were magnified in their meaning by instructions from Jesus. Jesus’ statements in Matthew 5 and Matthew 11:28-30 – to me – are clearly the reality of the existence of God’s Spirit and the out working of the fruit of the spirit in the born again believer when compared to the shadows contained in the words of the 10 commandments. This, to me, is the answer to a question asked by some SDA’s; ‘how are the 10 commandments a shadow of anything’? | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 737 Registered: 7-2004 |
To me, if anything is a "transcript of God's character" it is the Gospel. "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die. But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. The Law revealed that we fall short, it showed us why we were enemies of God. But the Gospel shows us the character of God. If anything the Cross is the transcript of God's character rather than the stone tablets. Is it any wonder that SDAism so despises the symbol of the cross. | ||
| Indy4now Registered user Username: Indy4now Post Number: 1017 Registered: 2-2008  |
Ric, I completely agree with you on this. Romans 1:16,17 and 3:21-25 is another reference:
Paul states clearly that the righteousness of God is revealed in the gospel. Later in chapter 3 he writes specifically that the righteousness of God has been manifested "apart" from the Law. So how can the Law be a "transcript" of God's character if His righteousness is demonstrated apart from it? Paul goes on teaching by saying that the righteousness of God was demonstrated by the cross event. The gospel is the transcript of God's character... not the 10C's or the Law. vivian | ||
| Jonvil Registered user Username: Jonvil Post Number: 509 Registered: 4-2007 |
Could we also say that His righteousness as revealed to us through the Gospel, is a transcript of His Character? John | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 738 Registered: 7-2004 |
John, I'm not sure what you are trying to say. If His character is revealed to us through the Gospel, then the Gospel would be the transcript. That transcript tells us of His righteousness. Otherwise we are left with a transcript that we don't read directly. | ||
| Cloudwatcher Registered user Username: Cloudwatcher Post Number: 390 Registered: 5-2009  |
I get ill when I hear respected Evangelicals say things like this... I know it plays into Adventist hands... It's like the devil compiled all of the right-sounding, but unbiblical stuff that Christians say and accept without critical thinking, and he gave it to Ellen White to take to it's logical conclusion, and TADA! we have the pillars of Adventism. Here's a current example of the transcript of God's character stuff, by Albert Mohler (I like him a lot, but I'm sick about his book). He's smarter than this: Words From the Fire: Hearing the Voice of God in the 10 Commandments If God has spoken, then the hightest human aspiration must be to hear what the Creator has said. God has indeed spoken, through the Ten Commandments, and Al Mohler explores this revelation of God and the implications for His people. The promise is to hear, to obey, and to live. These "Ten Words" tell us who God is and what His people should look like. About the Author R. Albert Mohler, Jr. is the ninth president of The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, the flagship school of the Southern Baptist Convention and one of the largest seminaries in the world. He also serves as Professor of Christian Theology at Southern Seminary and as Editor-in-Chief of The Southern Baptist Journal of Theology, as well as on the boards of several organizations including Focus on the Family and The Council for Biblical Manhood and Womanhood. Dr. Mohler has been quoted in the nation's leading newspapers, including The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, and USA Today. He has also appeared on such national news programs as CNN's Larry King Live, NBC's Today Show and Dateline NBC. He and his wife, Mary, have two children. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 9040 Registered: 3-2004  |
Send him one of Dale's books. Diana L | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 12310 Registered: 12-2003  |
Cloudwatcher, I'm with you. This idea that God's voice in the 10 Commandments is His revelation for us is really shortsighted. Rick, I agree with you; the gospel is far closer to God's character--but as Mary said, I don't think we can transcribe God's character. I believe the notion that the Law is the transcript of God's character makes God very, very small, and the law something BIG and eternal that sits on the throne of divinity. I've heard Adventists say Jesus died to uphold the law. This paradigm within the Adventist great controversy framework has given Adventists a false god...a god whose primary concern is protecting our freedom of choice. The god who is summed up by the law has no greater purpose than to get us to LOVE the law and obey it as our worship of him. This "law god" is only happy if we're obeying his tangible transcript, because that's the only way he knows we love him. It's pathetic, really. The REAL God is sovereign, powerful, loving, merciful, just, righteous, Creator, Sacrifice, Savior, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace, Lion of Judah, and on and on. No words can summarize Him...He IS the Word, and He knows we love him because He we accept His sacrifice, and He puts His own Spirit in us. He makes us alive; He's not watching us honor the 10 Commandments to figure out if we love Him. Colleen | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 1119 Registered: 10-2008 |
Just to dovetail on what has already been posted ... I have continually been struck by something as I unpack my Adventism. Christians have used the phrase, "God is totally 'OTHER'". For me this constantly butts up against my previous understanding of God in Adventism. God is totally "OTHER". To minimize God with the phrase, "The law is a transcript of God's character" diminishes His Sovereignty (as already been said). In Isaiah it is often written "I am God and there is NO OTHER." | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 739 Registered: 7-2004 |
Colleen, I'll take a little different path here. I completely agree with the idea that the finite can never fully grasp the infinite. The only god we can fully understand is one that we created, which is quite different than the Creator God. But God's character is revealed to us (granting that our understanding is only dim) in His actions toward us. And the pinnacle of that action is Christ and Him crucified. It certainly would explain Paul's contentment with sharing only that among the Corinthians. | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 740 Registered: 7-2004 |
Cloudwatcher, I agree with you here. Many of the errors of SDAism can be found being taught in other places; although many times these errors aren't taken to their full and logical conclusion in the way that SDAism has done. People often see the error as not that big of deal because they have only seen one or two steps down that path. We know where you end up if you follow that path deeper into the wilderness. We have a great amount to unlearn and plenty to learn. That should humble us in our critique of other's theology. But we also have a discernment that has grown from our journey out of SDAism. We need to continue practicing that discernment as we learn. | ||
| Jonvil Registered user Username: Jonvil Post Number: 511 Registered: 4-2007 |
Ric I agree - that's what I was thinking but sure didn't write it! If we could ascribe a one word summary of God's character as being 'RIGHTEOUSNESS' and agree that His righteousness is revealed in the Gospel then the Gospel is a transcript of that righteousness John |
