| Author | Message | ||
| Karethamiller Registered user Username: Karethamiller Post Number: 163 Registered: 8-2010  |
Bb...my favorite part of your comment: "But we are His and He is ours." | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 9003 Registered: 3-2004  |
Jim, You can listen to Gary Inrig, the pastor of Trinity church where the reunion was held. Diana L | ||
| Nowisee Registered user Username: Nowisee Post Number: 733 Registered: 5-2009 |
Hey, Jim, how are you? I want you to know that the Sabbath thing was really frightening for me to study when I started several years ago. I knew lots of other doctrines were wrong, but it was really hard for me to approach the Sabbath (I'm pretty sure it was a subject that most of the people on this forum were scared to look at, at first). I mean, who wants to be "howling in agony" per EGW's vision? Who wants to lose their salvation? Who wants to sell out to the beast & receive his mark? Those of us who were born of several generations of sda had this fear VERY deep in our bones. So don't feel alone in dealing with this. When I actually learned about the REAL old and new covenants that are very clearly taught in the Bible, (plus all the texts given in the above posts), I realized I had been lied to. The new covenant could NOT be the 10 commandments in my heart! Not according to the bible. If the COI hadn't "entered God's rest" per Heb. 4, then the weekly Sabbath couldn't be God's rest...they kept it every week & were stoned when they broke it. When doing some research in the old set of sda commentaries my parents still own, I read some of EGW's quotes about the Sabbath--they truly are horrendous...condemning to hell every Christian that goes to hear God's word taught on Sunday. She puts the Sabbath in place of Jesus, who is the One that sacrificed Himself to save us. Years ago I watched the movie, "The Village". We all grew up (well, some moved to it later...) in the "Village" of adventism, being told there were scary monsters outside who would kill us if we ventured out. Those of us who have ventured out have found them to be make-believe monsters, put there by EGW and those that have carried on her myths. For myself, I found my coming-out to be the equivalent of healing from brain-washing. I am still healing as I discover more falsehoods she taught. Just consider, if she had no idea that Hebrews absolutely teaches the falsehood of the IJ, then what makes you think the other stuff she taught (Sabbath) is true? How in the world can she be a prophet of God if she didn't even understand the concepts of the old and new covenants? Col. 2:16 & 17!! And, really, don't read her stuff, or the stuff others have written that teaches her concepts even tho' they don't mention her by name...this stuff has a very strong spiritual hold...if it doesn't conform to God's word and the gospel, then throw it out. I absolutely found that I can't sit on the fence, with one foot in grace and one foot in law. And don't be afraid of make-believe monsters! | ||
| Cloudwatcher Registered user Username: Cloudwatcher Post Number: 361 Registered: 5-2009  |
I love every single word of what you wrote, Nowisee. Thank you. | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1092 Registered: 5-2007 |
I am attempting to respond to points made here. At the outset, I am in agreement with most everything I have read here, somethings maybe not clear on. Everyone here is important to me and I truly appreciate each of you and your helps. ASurprise, You cited that the law was indeed fullfilled at the cross, by eveidence that the scarificial system has ended. Then/If: If not one jot shall pass from the law till ALL is fullfilled, and IF the sacrificial system ended, THEN: ALL of the law must have been fufilled at the Cross by Christ. The secondary derailment is contained in the arguments that the Law(s) are categorical and that the changes to the law are not all inclusive. The verse that St. Paul wrote, "we establish the law" is often used as a rebuttal. Yet I also know that St. Paul identified the tablets as "of the Covenant" and that would tend to negate the idea of divisional law groups. The three types of Sabbath are also refuted as all inclusive. Sometimes I trip up here. Again , both sides make their points. I need to refresh on this one. Cloudy, No, I have not been studying EGW books. I only have a couple left and they are out in storage. 95% of my SDA books are gone. The problem is , my memory is often more available to my thought processes than the new teachings I am trying to absorb and process. I read her writings and SDA books almost continously for three decades. Unlearning and recalculating has taken me a lot of time, far more than I would desire. It seems my brain is often taxed to the limits and as I grow older (56), I am not as quick to redirect my patterns. Not an excuse, but a factor in my struggle. As far as books. Books (printed material) are helpful in the general sense that I use them as study guides and something I can mark. What I have discovered is that , which books I use are very important. Some books add to confusion. So that is a minefield at times. The main thing is to keep the main things the main things. Books can help me do that. I think I need to force myself to extract notes from these marked books and write them out. To gather the fragments. You also mentioned Spiritual Strongholds. In this context, the strongholds are confusion and working through the mixed signals. Again, I suspect it is entrenched thinking and the limitations of relearning. So often, I forget what I learned as a key pivot point and have to go back repeatedly to recapture it. Animal, You metioned that Sabbatarians worship the day more than God. I do not see it that way. Never did. I do not think it is a fair assessment of the motive. People resort to the law keeping aspect out of several reasons. Respect for God's will and instructions. Fear of God, Fear of discipline or loss. Obedience to the percieved will of GOd. Loyalty as a sacrifice to God even when it hurts. Misunderstanding, yet proceeding from conviction. Jesus said, If ye love Me , keep the commandments, which ones? , and there is how they got to that conviction. I agree, they may indeed be in error, or partial error. But it is of obedience that they do what they do. Joyfulheart, The fact that St. Paul and for that matter all the Epistles did not teach Sabbath keeping as a matter of instructions, rules or recorded tradition of the church speaks volumes to me and is the main reason I have even been able to consider that the SDA system may be in error. You brought up a topic about the interpretation of "We establish the law" and the "purpose of the law" This is one of those strongholds and mixed signals that I need to study. You said "to do what"? Establish the law. Yet, by implication, Paul does not mean it literally or by letter. This is not something to be glossed over. It is key. Right here is a door to a needed conviction I have not yet recieved. Jim | ||
| Michaelmiller Registered user Username: Michaelmiller Post Number: 251 Registered: 7-2010  |
Jim, Will you ever be able to please God with perfect obedience? Just like standing before a judge here, one instance of obedience to the law does not negate the penalty for disobedience in another completely different offense. You can't say "yes judge, I was speeding, but I didn't run any red lights!" That is the where the whole obedience argument breaks down and fails... yes it is good to be obedient, but it does not gain us any better standing with God because we are still sinners. Salvation doesn't come through obedience, and I think you are recognizing that  So, what then is the purpose of the commands to obey (the law)? It's purpose is as a standard to bring us into recognition that we are sinners and that our obedience is irrelevant (as several scriptures have attested). If it were not for the law, how would we know we were sinners (again, scripture says this)? The law brings us to repentance and recognition that we need a savior that is not ourselves.... that is its established purpose. Thankfully, as scripture declares, we have Jesus! Once in Christ, obedience to the law doesn't enter into it. Sure... we are called to Christian living in the way of the Spirit (which is different and better than the way of the letter), but we are no longer judged by the standards of the written law. We have been released from that bondage. You are correct, this is the key. I'm praying for you... the veil described in 2 Cor 3 keeps tripping you up. Michael | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1093 Registered: 5-2007 |
Asurprise, That horoscope thing is long gone. It was not anything I was doing. That other person is no longer a part of my home. Strongholds take many other forms. Fear , confusion can be their own bondage. Colleen, and several others, You are right, when I cannot figure it out, I go back to Jesus for shelter. I do not want anyone to think that I do not listen for God's Spirit. I do. Jim | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1094 Registered: 5-2007 |
Michael, "Salvation doesn't come through obedience, and I think you are recognizing that " J: Can you give me an example or passage where this thought is expressed? I think this is a true statement to some degree, but when I think of sin, we are warned that we can be grafted back out of the vine. How do you rectify that with the other? Jim | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 1713 Registered: 7-2007 |
Jim; Satan does not let go any legal ground he's claimed unless God kicks him out. Satan, also, is not a gentleman. If someone opens the door - any door - the least little crack, Satan throws the door wide open. And, he has legal rights to be there if the door has been opened even a crack. Once he takes legal ground, he starts building a stronghold. So Jim, you have not taken steps to cleanse your household, believe me, he's still there. Do you have Ellen White's books still there? PRAYERFULLY and slowly walk through each room and ask God if there's anything displeasing to Him in it and ask Him to fill it with His Presence. Out loud say, "I renounce anything I've ever done or said or had contact with, to do with Satan." And Jim, God is NOT the author of confusion. "For God is not a God of confusion but of peace." 1 Corinthians 14:33 I'm praying for you. | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1095 Registered: 5-2007 |
Asuprise, It was not I who tinkered in horoscopes etc. 3 years ago , my sister advised me to cleanse my home. I prayed aloud in each room to drive the evil (if any)from my home. I am not in denial that evil does not exist in the form of the unseen. I do not believe that is the literal issue in my home, nor ever was. If there is a hold on me personally , it would be the scars of the past, the loss of a 30 year marriage, and the after effects it does to a person. I have health problems, limited strength and cope with a sense of helplessness at times. Good days and bad days. Like most people. I was asked in this string about whether I have been to any other churches. I have been to two. But none lately. I saw a new Messianic Church in the area holding meetings at a Non Denom Church. I checked out their webpage and realized they are still in the Old Covenant and New Covenant merged. May as well go to SDA. I have stopped shopping on Saturday because I was stressing out so badly over Sabbath. That means having to do everything on Sunday. I don't have the strength to do it all. I watch many sermons on TV and Christian radio daily. Daily Bible reading. I am doing what is manageable. I am tempted to go back to the SDA and just be. But even at that, there are so many obstacles. This is not about excuses, it is about bewilderment. I am not demon possessed, but thanks for asking. Jim | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 1717 Registered: 7-2007 |
Jim; I didn't say you were demon possessed, and neither do I think you are. I just said that spiritual ties - such as through family members - can cause spiritual confusion. You didn't address that in your list of explanations. The truth of the fact that the Old Testament does not apply to you is simple and should not cause you such confusion. | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1096 Registered: 5-2007 |
Asurprise, My relatives are a mix of Catholics, Mainline protestants and Adventists. You are right, all of it affects your outlook and does indeed cause confusion. I did not think you thought that I was possessed, and I understand that evil in all it,s various forms can hold us in subtle ways. I long for the day when I can say I have finally found peace about all these things. When I listen to the other side even for a few minutes, it can caise me weeks of doubt. When I confine myself to the Bible and mainline Christianity , I trend the other way. So I ask myself, why permit even a sampling of the SDA theology? Nowisee said it pretty clearly; "I mean, who wants to be "howling in agony" per EGW's vision? Who wants to lose their salvation? Who wants to sell out to the beast & receive his mark? Those of us who were born of several generations of sda had this fear VERY deep in our bones. So don't feel alone in dealing with this." I am attempting to know, that I am not believing a lie. That is why. Honestly, I don't know how or when God will bring me though this valley. But I believe He will someday. Jim | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 12291 Registered: 12-2003  |
Jim, "we establish the law" must be read in context. It's in Romans 6. In context, Paul has just done an in-depth explanation of how the law defines sin and condemns us to death for the sins we do. He has just explained that the law was given to increase sin and to make sure that we know we are sinners. It objectified "sins" so people who were unaware that they were inherently sinners would make no mistake: they were sinners and condemned to hell. When Paul said, "We establish the law," he doesn't mean we hold it up as a rule of practice for Christians. He meant that it served a righteous and holy purpose: it was the tool to expose SIN. It served a necessary function. Now, however, there is a righteousness from God apart from the law, and because of Jesus, we are released from the demands and the curse of the law. That text has been yanked out of context so often; Paul does NOT mean we establish it as the guide for godly living. Rather, Romans 8 describes how the Holy Spirit has become that guide and that power for Christians. Jim, Adventism didn't fade away from my life until Richard prayed for our family and asked God to remove the spirit of Adventism from us and to place His Spirit in the place within our hearts where Adventism had been. When we prayed that prayer, everything was different. Colleen | ||
| Darrell Registered user Username: Darrell Post Number: 126 Registered: 10-1999 |
It is unfortunate that the chapter break came just after Paul said "we establish the law", because what Paul goes on to do immediately after saying that is to "establish the law" by showing from the law that we are saved by faith, just as Abraham was! -Darrell | ||
| Michaelmiller Registered user Username: Michaelmiller Post Number: 252 Registered: 7-2010 |
Chapter and verse numbers are certainly a mixed blessing, particularly around those accustomed to proof texting (much like I was). Michael | ||
| Nowisee Registered user Username: Nowisee Post Number: 739 Registered: 5-2009 |
Jim, I had to trust that Jesus, God the Son, & his sacrifice on the cross was enough to save me! Is Jesus enough? Is He? I, too, was prayed over, to have the spirit of adventism removed. You know, we can all pray for you to have the spirit of sda removed from you! It is a solemn reality that if I choose to be saved by keeping the law, then I, since there is NO WAY I can keep it perfectly, will end up being lost. That's why I cling to the cross and gratefully accept the payment Christ, the perfect Lamb, made in my place! He is my ONLY hope, not my futile efforts. When I sin, He doesn't throw me away! What a Savior! "But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the NEW way of the Spirit, and NOT in the old way of the written code." Romans 7:6 (NIV) | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1097 Registered: 5-2007 |
Oh, my soul, I am trying to recieve God's truth. Colleen, I understand, at least partially, what you describe as the meaning of 'we establish the law". Nowisee, also in view of your thoughts; Here is some of what I process in this. The SDA filter may be a large part of this: That since most agree that the 10C were an encapsulated set of the whole will of God regarding the law of commandements. That they continue to reflect an eternal summary of Gods will/law/unchanging in nature. That under the new covenant, the sacrificial system is ended. (Although I still do not understand oblation.) That since Christ stands in place of our incomplete and lacking ability to perfectly obey the law and to be sin free, nor can we pay for our sins, that God covers us through the redemption of Christ. However, the reality of the law still stands, that is , sin is still sin as always defined by the law. That our aim and reflection of living by The Spirit is defined by the law, even if we cannot render perfection to it. Christ covers our lack. That is how I am seeing we establish the law. Thus , if I am still reflecting on the 10C, I am still bound to the Sabbath even if I do not perfectly keep it. To all this, confusion continues because MOST mainline churches continue to model moral laws based directly upon the ten commandments. I submit that the mainline faiths are inconsistant and trying to have it both ways. So that leaves me fragmented into three directions. The quasi blend of theology of the mainliners, The SDA or a theology that sets aside the law , the 10C entirely, the entire law of Moses, all 600+. That the law of Christ is simply Love for God and Love for one another. That morality is Spiritually discerned and examples of that morality and it's fruits are given in the writings of St. Paul. Now a few of the trip wires. Just as I review the fact that the NT did not prescribe the keeping of the Sabbath, It did not prescribe the ending of the Sabbath in literal terms or instructions to either the Jews or the Gentiles. It left it as unsettled. We us ethe force of logic in saying it was not instructed, and I consider the force of the logic that is was not countermanded by instruction. I loathe the fact that I am whirlpooled into tyrying to answer this question of legal bondage to the law. It is wasting my life. I want to settle this and KNOW that God approves and that it is a truth. I ask for prayer that God will reveal to me the truth, and in a manner that I can recieve it. Sometimes there is a truth we cannot bear. But the truth that I seek is one of healing, and of peace of mind. Ultimately, I am left to attempt to let go of this entirely. Not to be agnostic. But to rest. This is hurting me and ruining my life. I cannot find peace seeking to understand. If there be any peace, it is trusting Christ for everything. Jim | ||
| Skeeter Registered user Username: Skeeter Post Number: 1270 Registered: 12-2007 |
Jim : "If there be any peace, it is trusting Christ for everything." THAT'S IT ! "Trusting Christ for everything" Find rest in Him. EVERY day Maybe you could start out by attending church Bible studies that are held during midweek.. then until you get yourmind wrapped around all the changes that are taking place in your understanding, you wont have to deal with the "should I go to church on Saturday.. or on Sunday" part of it.. just go and study the Bible with a group that uses ONLY the Bible. The rest will come in time. also.. the REST will come. Praying for you. Francie | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3600 Registered: 10-2004  |
Jim, You wrote:
So then the remaining question we need to find the answer to would be: What is the "Law" that Jesus is referring to in Matthew 5?
The phrase "the Law or the Prophets" referred to the entire Scriptures (the OT)--the first five books of Moses (the Torah/Pentateuch) and the other books. The term "the Law," then, refers at least to the entire five books of Moses, or, as short-hand, to the entire OT. As Judaism 101 says:
Jesus also said:
Jeremy | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 1721 Registered: 7-2007 |
Jim; you said... quote: "Christ covers our lack." That's a huge mistake because Jesus did it ALL. He doesn't make up our lack. ALL the psuedo-Christian cults teach this. I quoted part of a "verse" from the Book of Mormon saying this, on another thread. 2 Nephi 25:23 "...for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do." Another mistake you're making is considering that the SDA church might still be true. The mainline churches that are trying to have it both ways are wrong. Please go only by the Word of God. And Jim, the New Testament shows the end of the law and the end of the Sabbath... Romans 10:3-4 "...For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness..." Colossians 2:16-17 "Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ." Galatians 3:17-19 says that the law started 430 years after Abraham and was to go until Christ. |
