| Author | Message | ||
| Martinc Registered user Username: Martinc Post Number: 228 Registered: 9-2006 |
At our Friday night Bible study we have had visitors remark that some of our personal testimonies were rather childlike. This was not meant to be a compliment, and my first reaction to this was defensive. Then after studying, I realized it was a very astute observation. We are rather childlike, even sometimes annoyingly childish (Yes, I can speak for myself). But why? Jesus has said that unless we are converted and become like little children, we won't enter the kingdom of heaven. This is one of those texts that only partially made sense, because we have to be very mature, you know. That text has stayed in my "Slightly annoying sayings of Jesus" file. Then the other day I found a sermon by Doug Goins about II Cor. 3, about the veil that covers the faces of those under the law. Jesus' comment makes more sense now. When Moses first put on the veil, he meant to protect the Israelites from the brightness of God's glory. But as the glory began to fade, he kept the veil on to hide its fading. He only took it off when he met with God in private. He had had enough trouble getting them to stop complaining and take God's words seriously, and his glowing face was a big boost to his authority. The veil kept the sons of Israel from looking "intently" at the fading of power. But alas, God removed the glory, for it did not belong to Moses. The apostle Paul says that whenever the law is read, to this day, "the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ." Now, we are very familiar with this story in II Cor. 3. But here's the part that amazed me. All of us who have lived under the law wear veils, masks that protect us from others looking "intently" at us, for they might see our fading glory, our weaknesses. These masks accumulated over the years of living by rules and trying to look good all the time. Our pride could not allow us to let these masks slip off, and they became our personas. We got more skilled at protecting ourselves from rejection and hurt, but at the expense of our freedom to be open and trusting, like a child. Every time we act falsely to appear good, our hearts became harder. The harder we get, the duller we get to the spirit and truth in the hearts of others, and to God's Spirit and truth. We can't remove our own veils, and this false life is the walk of spiritual death. The thing we fear the most is our greatest need, for Jesus to look intently at us, and expose us. Just as for Adam and Eve, when Jesus comes to us, we feel very naked and afraid. No veils or masks can remain long in His presence. We can deny our sin and weakness, acting all hard and tough. Or we can drop the defenses and repent. We have to break down and confess like only the guiltiest little child can. The charades must end, for "Christ is the end of the law for righteousness, to everyone who believes." When we know Christ is our good behavior, that He holds us forever, that God is our Daddy, our hardness melts. The Spirit changes us from "glory to glory," looking openly at the beauty of Christ with no masks of self-justification on. We also can feel and be like children again. We can be free to speak boldly from the heart and trust others. So yes, people won't see repentant Christians acting perfectly. Our weaknesses are now much closer to the surface. They will see broken people being changed into trusting, plain-speaking sinners, learning how to live all over again. Martin C | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 12274 Registered: 12-2003  |
Martin, this is really profound. I love this analysis:
So true. Being born of the Spirit makes us "real" and alive. We don't have to hide the secrets that produced our shame, because those secrets are redeemed and become the places of God's strength being perfected in us. We no longer have to hide. The point that Moses hid his face so Israel wouldn't see the glory fading is profound as well. I learned that Moses hid his face so people wouldn't be blinded by the glory; 2 Cor 3 tells us the opposite is true. It's amazing to realize that God's glory can be seen clearly in our faces as we allow Him to heal us and transform us. Our shame is replaced by His glory. We no longer need to hide our secret shame by arrogant posturing and grasping for position. Instead, we let go of our shame by entrusting it to the Lord Jesus for His transformation. Colleen | ||
| Skeeter Registered user Username: Skeeter Post Number: 1262 Registered: 12-2007 |
Thank you Martin, you cannot know how much I needed to read this right now.  Francie | ||
| Martinc Registered user Username: Martinc Post Number: 229 Registered: 9-2006 |
Yes, Colleen, it is very much about hiding our shame and secrets with arrogant posturing. Oh to be completely free from that hypocrisy! I never got what Paul meant, "Since we have such a hope, we are very bold, not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face." Here, "bold" means complete confidence and freedom of speech. Children who are loved are like that, and so we are. Martin C | ||
| Martinc Registered user Username: Martinc Post Number: 230 Registered: 9-2006 |
Francie, I just sent up a little prayer for you, for power in whatever you're dealing with. He knows, and His name is "The Lord our Righteousness!" Martin C | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 7163 Registered: 9-2006  |
I am really interested in what way you think your testimonies are ‘child like’ and also why visitors would find your testimonies ‘child like’. Now this is going to be a long post, but I assure you I will return to Martin’s original subject. Speaking of observations (if anyone is even interested) I most days check FB and found a few statements that caught my attention. The context was Eastern Orthodoxy, but the one that really caught my eye was this: ___________________________________________________________ Similar to today’s sciences, Orthodox theology also depends on an instrument which is not identified with reason or the intellect. The Biblical name for this is the heart. Christ says, “Blessed are the pure in heart for they shall se...e God.”4 _____________________________________________________________________ Now before you let this get past and flip the statement off as uninteresting, of no consequence or value, just think on what this statement encompasses. Now this guy was referring to Eastern Orthodoxy and the great schism when he used the word Orthodox, but I want to use the word Orthodox as in Orthodoxy period. Of course the Eastern Orthodox believe they are the ones that are orthodox, but that is neither here nor there in what I want to address. I followed up the statement with "John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth, that instrument which is not identified with reason or the intellect, but the heart, (spirit). Then I followed that up with this statement: As I have interacted with former Adventists in the past, I have made this observation, the most difficult thing that the former Adventist faces is letting go of the intellect. Having been trained from birth that the spirit is the 'breathe' he is then rolled inevitably back onto his intellect. Quote:Eastern Orthodoxy provides ways for you to really interact with God, to see or experience God. There goes that intellect again, always king, always supreme in the mind of the former Adventist. No religion can provide ways for a person to interact, to see or experience God, neither East or West, for God is seen, not by means of religion or tradition, but by means of spirit, an instrument which is not identified with reason or the intellect. Most religions, East or West depends almost entirely on tradition as the vehicle which supposedly allows them to interact, to see, to experience God. I doubt if the Eastern Orthodox is any different, although I know little about the religion, my strongest hint that it is no different being the emphasis placed on tradition. The difference between a positive science and an intellectual or theoretical science is that a positive science is not necessarily taken up in the details, but is a string of observations eventually tied together to prove a fact. It is by this means that I have made my observations of the former Adventist. The details are not the instrument, the observations are the instrument. Therefore, in conclusion, generally speaking, the former Adventist does not truly escape from the powers that held him bound in the first place, at least not immediately, but instead, seeks out the religion that his intellect is most comfortable with, in some cases East, in some cases West, neither being the instrument by which he can see, experience or interact with true God which is Spirit, and truth. It is this one repeating observation that frustrates me the most, it is repeated over and over again in a day to day interaction with former Adventists. The former Adventist who chooses the Eastern Orthodox religion is no different than the former Adventist who chooses the Western religion, or the reformed religion. They all bear the same markers that seems to be inevitable. That marker is the intellect, that thing that needs to be put aside and surrendered up, because it stands between that Spirit and that truth. Right away I get someone asking this question, “River, what do you mean by giving up the intellect?” Now these are simple observations taken from reading thousands of post and by observing the same markers over and over. No great trick, markers are well…markers. If I take a core sample by drilling through rock sediment I can obtain markers containing information from past ages, it is the markers that tell the tale, not how the core drill was constructed and transported to the sight, if I cover all that in my report, the markers get buried in the details. Same with intellectual or theoretical theology. The markers that tell the tale are buried in the details. Now you intellectuals should love this, because I leave off the old arky possum routine and begin to discuss real issues that affect us every day of our lives. Now Martin just said: “we have had visitors remark that some of our personal testimonies were rather childlike. This was not meant to be a compliment, and my first reaction to this was defensive. Then after studying, I realized it was a very astute observation. We are rather childlike, even sometimes annoyingly childish (Yes, I can speak for myself). But why?” Didn’t he just say that? Sure he did. Now this is not meaning the slightest disrespect for Martin, because make no mistake, I have the greatest respect for Martin, not just saying it to make him feel better, its real. Ok Martin, I am going to attempt to explain why. Your visitors are looking for certain markers. The down side of that is that, in all likelihood, the visitors don’t know beans about former Adventists. You see, they left their own marker! Now lets return to the statement the good doctor made which was : Similar to today’s sciences, Orthodox theology also depends on an instrument which is not identified with reason or the intellect. The Biblical name for this is the heart. Christ says, “Blessed are the pure in heart for they shall se...e God.”4 Ok, you remember the beatitudes, , pure, meek, mourn and so fourth. Well… could we say these are markers? Now lets address the passage Martin is referring too: Matthew 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Could we say this is also a marker? Sure we could. The problem I have with anyone referring to the testimonies of former Adventists as being childlike is my assumption they don’t know beans about it, simply because the there is not enough data for them to make the statement and be anywhere near right. In other words they don’t know their subjects who are giving testimony. You’ve heard of missing the mark haven’t you? Well, they miss the mark because of lack of data. Again, using the rock sample example, I must make several core drillings to obtain the accurate data that I need. Thus my statement: Therefore, in conclusion, generally speaking, the former Adventist does not truly escape from the powers that held him bound in the first place, at least not immediately, but instead, seeks out the religion that his intellect is most comfortable with, in some cases East, in some cases West, neither being the instrument by which he can see, experience or interact with true God which is Spirit, and truth. And. The former Adventist who chooses the Eastern Orthodox religion is no different than the former Adventist who chooses the Western religion, or the reformed religion. They all bear the same markers that seems to be inevitable. That marker is the intellect, that thing that needs to be put aside and surrendered up, because it stands between that Spirit and that truth. Now yall want folks to be truthful and honest with you don’t you? Doesn’t pure in heart represent honesty rather than perfection of character? I’d say it does. Now what is child like about my statements up there? My markers turn out to be different from their markers. A whole lot different. I see former Adventists as deeply intellectuals, and hey! I got more markers than those visitors ever dreamed of having. I have lived and loved, argued and cried with you for several years, don’t that earn me an opinion? What have they done accept come to visit? When have they cared? I sometime feel as if I am dealing with formidable intellects, and I see those intellects as a major road block. A stumbling block if you will. (Similar to today’s sciences, Orthodox theology also depends on an instrument which is not identified with reason or the intellect.) Boy, what a mouthful that was. Lets knock off the first two words and say, “ Child like faith also depends on an instrument which is not identified with reason or the intellect.” That which is not identified with reason or the intellect. You think Martin that you were a little defensive when they said that? Wait’ll I get through. A child does not depend on intellect and if I talk about certain subjects on this forum the old intellect kicks in and all hell breaks loose. Hell comes to breakfast carrying a baggie when I speak of things not identified with reason or intellect. The former Adventist who chooses the Eastern Orthodox religion is no different than the former Adventist who chooses the Western religion, or the reformed religion. They all bear the same markers that seems to be inevitable. That marker is the intellect, that thing that needs to be put aside and surrendered up, because it stands between that Spirit and that truth. The question: River, what do you mean by giving up the intellect? My answer: I don't mean dumbing down, I mean you build that protective fence around you with your intellect, and that fence stands between you and the Holy Spirit. In doing so you do not get fed Gods nourishing, you end up getting fed mans food that does not nourish the spirit. The answer I gave was not by any means through nor complete in its entirety, so it wasn’t a very good answer. That marker is the intellect, that thing that needs to be put aside and surrendered up, because it stands between that Spirit and that truth. How do we do that? By not having to have all the answers. I have heard you folks say time and time again, “I don’t have to have all the answers.” But you invariably end up having to have just that. By saying you don’t have to have all the answers, what you really mean is, “I can close my mind when I want to.” Ok, this is way too long, but is has to do with child likeness. Child likeness before God will bring spiritual strength, the spirit being fed directly intravenously by Spirit, and your great intellect can not play a part in that, not one bit, not one ounce, not one tiny sliver, now are you hearing me? Example: If you are low on blood, you can hook up arm to arm with someone else and get fed the blood you need intravenously. If you get fed by what I’m talking about you will not be able to comprehend the source and your intellect will be useless. River | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 2740 Registered: 8-2004  |
Speaking of "The Lord our Righteousness" I loved the sermon Sunday at Trinity where I finally 'got' the reason the animals that were sacrificed had to be blemish free- it was because when the person placed his sins on the animal, there was a transfer not just of the sins to the animal, but of the purity of the animal to the person, prefiguring that when our sins are taken by Jesus, His righteousness is given to us. The transfer goes both ways! (probably a no-brainer for most of y'all, but startling to me) Blessings, Mary | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 1624 Registered: 3-2009 |
I love that both-ways transfer concept. Could you give some scriptures one it? Thanks. Hec | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 1869 Registered: 6-2006  |
Mary, that would kind of blow away the Satan-scapegoat image, wouldn't it? Leigh Anne I knew that I was counted righteous in Christ and that he took on and paid for our sins, but I've never thought of the two-way transfer either. Beautiful! | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 2742 Registered: 8-2004 |
yep, it sure would Leigh Anne! Hec, here's an internet article on the topic: Imputation of Sin and Righteousness. Maybe later I'll get a chance to put together some scriptures myself. | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 1626 Registered: 3-2009 |
Thanks, Mary. Hec | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 1627 Registered: 3-2009 |
Thanks, Mary for the link. I read it but could not find any scriptures referring to the innocence of the sacrificed animal being imputed to the sinner. Hec | ||
| Cloudwatcher Registered user Username: Cloudwatcher Post Number: 353 Registered: 5-2009  |
Hec, I think it's symbolic. You have plenty of Scriptures to back up that Christ's righteousness is transfered to us.... Do you need some to say that the animal's spotlessness was transfered to the person? It really wasn't... it was symbolic. Of what use would an animal's perfection be to me? The only one that is true is the fulfillment in Christ. | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 1628 Registered: 3-2009 |
It's not that I need it. Is that that would complete the symbolism. I'm not trying to deny that this is in fact the case. Please don't misinterpret my request. I just thought that it would be nice to have the scriptures that correspond to the topic. It is a beautiful example. Hec | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 1870 Registered: 6-2006 |
Hec, Here's a link to scriptural background of the spotless lamb ~ http://bible.cc/1_peter/1-19.htm Also, in addition to scripture, I'd think you would need historical information on sacrifice in Judaism. You may be able to find something in the Jewish encyclopedia online. Historical docs are great for backing up Bible history. Leigh Anne | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 12277 Registered: 12-2003 |
Mary, that was a powerful point for me as well. I had not thought of the "transfer" of the animals' symbolic spotlessness before...I'd just thought of it representing Jesus' spotlessness. The link to the sermon is: http://www.trinityonline.org/cgi-bin/MediaList.cgi?section= It was very powerful. Colleen | ||
| Indy4now Registered user Username: Indy4now Post Number: 1013 Registered: 2-2008  |
I loved your post Martin! Remember that scene in the Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe when Lucy first climbs into the wardrobe? That is one of my favorite scenes. She walks out into this snowy land of Narnia with evergreens and snow drifting quietly... have you noticed her expression? AMAZING. Her expresssion is exactly how I felt when I realized what it meant to be free in Christ. It is a childlike expression... amazement and wonder. In letting go I found my peace in Christ. I didn't know I would feel peace in that way... it was unexpected. Much like Lucy walking into Narnia that day... unexpected. You can't help but be captivated. It's a very childlike emotion. vivian | ||
| 1john2v27nlt Registered user Username: 1john2v27nlt Post Number: 275 Registered: 5-2009 |
Hec, Check out Lev 5:2 - Or if they touch something that is ceremonially unclean, such as the dead body of an animal that is ceremonially unclean--whether a wild animal, a domesticated animal, or an animal that scurries along the ground--they will be considered ceremonially unclean and guilty, even if they are unaware of the defilement. People became unclean by touching. And Lev 6:27 - Anything or anyone who touches the sacrificial meat will become holy, and if the sacrificial blood splatters anyone's clothing, it must be washed off in a sacred place. People became holy by touching. It is an extrapolation perhaps to extend this to the idea of righteousness transferred to us from the animal; maybe not. All of it is symbolic or ceremonial. It does point to Jesus. Anyone? J9 | ||
| Free2dance Registered user Username: Free2dance Post Number: 229 Registered: 2-2010 |
Martin, thank you for this! | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 1702 Registered: 7-2007 |
Indy4now; they did a wonderful job in that first Narnia movie! That was an excellent allegory of the Christian life! Have you seen the latest one though? "The Voyage of the Dawn Treader"? That one almost seems as if it's been written by SDAs. Remember Reepicheep the mouse saying something like (concerning going to Aslans' country which represents going to Heaven)... "I hope to earn the right to see it someday." |
