| Author | Message | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1090 Registered: 5-2007 |
I am not asking for eloquence, or profound words. I am asking formers how they arrived at a conviction and a settled peace with God regarding letting go of the Sabbath, and of the 10C as a unified law. What main thing set you free? What convinced you that you were indeed released from the Sabbath? I have tried and tried to let go of my anxious forbodings regarding the law. I have listened to both SDA and Non SDA theology regarding the Law and Grace. Honestly , both sides make good points and both sides leave holes, insert redefinitions and convoluted reasonings that leave me more confused than when I started. To this day, I cannot escape a sense of doing wrong no matter which way I go theologically. My peace is stolen in confusion and I am unable to resolve it. Trusting in Christ is a first step, this I am sure. But being tossed about in complex theology is a shipwreck. Simply, for those of you who have found conviction, what main thing, what passage, what epiphany brought you peace? For those who have not found that conviction as yet, what method are you following to get there? Simply making a decision is not an answer if it is without conviction. | ||
| Cloudy Registered user Username: Cloudy Post Number: 148 Registered: 7-2007  |
The book, Sabbath in Christ. However, I am not sure that taking a survey of what has convicted others will help you. I know you have read many books already and sought out opinions repeatedly and it has not helped. It still seems that you may have a spiritual stronghold to deal with before you can find peace. If this were simply an issue of conviction of theology,surely all the study you have already done should have settled the issue for you by now. I am not an expert in these matters, but "I know Whom I have believed, and am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I've committed unto Him against that day" (1 Tim. 1:12) | ||
| Rossbondreturns Registered user Username: Rossbondreturns Post Number: 100 Registered: 10-2009  |
In Hebrews 4 we are called to enter our Rest in Christ. Christ fulfilled the Law perfectly and the Law itself was done away with on the Cross. We are under the New Covenant now because of the Cross. Christ is Lord of the Sabbath, since Christ is the Lord of the Sabbath and perfectly fulfilled the Sabbath and the Law not to mention that according to Jewish Law Jesus broke the Sabbath. If we are in Christ we are resting in the finished work of Our Lord and Savior the Lord of All Things. | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 1696 Registered: 7-2007 |
Jim; let me point out a few things... 1. First the law was given to the literal nation of Israel. a. Galatians 3:17 & 19 says that the law came 430 years AFTER Abraham and was to go until the Seed [Christ] would come. b. In Deuteronomy 5:3 Moses tells Israel: "The Lord did not make this covenant with our fathers, but with us, those who are here today, all of us who are alive." c. What's the covenant? One of several verses that answer this is Deuteronomy 4:13 which says: "So He declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on two tablets of stone." Also see Exodus 34:28. 2. Second Jesus fulfilled that covenant [law]. Notice Matthew 5:18 where Jesus said that not one jot or tittle would pass from the law until ALL was fulfilled. If Jesus hadn't fulfilled ALL the law, then we'd have to offer lambs and goats as sacrifices still. That was certainly part of the law too!!! 3. All the various Sabbaths were a shadow of Christ. Notice Colossians 2:16-17 that says: "Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ." All three groups of Sabbaths are covered here. 4. Jesus made a new covenant and the old one is obsolete. Hebrews 8:13 says "In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away." Hebrews 9:15-17 says: "Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant. For where a will is involved, the death of the one who made it must be established. For a will takes effect only at death, since it is not in force as long as the one who made it is alive." Either you have grace or you have law. You cannot have both. One nullifies the other. | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 1697 Registered: 7-2007 |
Cloudy, I think you meant 2 Timothy 1:12  | ||
| Animal Registered user Username: Animal Post Number: 865 Registered: 7-2008  |
All I had to do was look up and gaze at our Universe and I made a wonderful discovery.... Salvation is not based upon a 24 hour period of time(sabbath). Salvation is based upon God's pure love for you and me.Christ death and resurrection is my assurance of salvation...not the sabbath. Sabbatarians tend to worship the seventh day more than they worship the Creator and Sustainer of their life. They have made a day unto an idol, ....Animal | ||
| Joyfulheart Registered user Username: Joyfulheart Post Number: 810 Registered: 10-2006 |
Jim, First of all, I want you to know I've been praying for you for a long time. I so want you to have the peace and joy that I have found in Christ alone, Christ the Savior who paid my debt and saved me. You posted recently that you still are reading and believe Ellen White,s writings are at least partially true. I am convinced that as long as you are accepting even some of her writings as inspired truth, you will be in heart wretching confusion. She wrote (copied) some things that are true. The things she wrote that are not true are drawing you into confusion and away from Christ. Ellen White's writings must be rejected before you will ever be able to embrace the truth of the Bible. I strongly suggest that you box up her stuff and read that Bible alone for a very long while. Even SDA's say you don't NEED her writings. I offer a few points that helped me. 1. Neither Jesus, his disciples, nor anyone else with spiritual authority ever told anyone to be sure to keep the Sabbath. In fact, Jesus appears to have diminished it's importance before the Jews. Paul in all his admonitions to the church never reminded anyone to keep the Sabbath. It seems like all the Gentiles coming to Christ would have needed some teaching about what the Sabbath is and how it is to be kept if they were to keep it. 2. There is nothing wrong withnot working on the Sabbath. If you don't want to work on the Sabbath - don't do it. There's no problem. I have lazy days, too. I love to spend time reading my Bible, listening to Christian music, taking walks etc. Don't violate your conscience. All that being said though, know that doing those things will win you nothing before God. You're not getting "brownie points." Our righteousness gets us nothing. The price was paid for your salvation long ago on the cross. You repent of known and unknown sin, choose to follow Jesus and make Him your Lord. The Holy Spirit will teach, remind and convict you of anything you need to know or do. I strongly suggest that you memorize Galatians 2:20-21. Know that if your obedience and law keeping could have saved you, Jesus would never have had to die. The law is our tutor to bring us to Christ. When Paul says in Romans that he establishes the law, one needs to ask - to do what? What is the purpose of the law? It has served it's purpose in my life. My sin is ever before me. I am a sinner. I need mercy. I need grace. I have found all those things in Christ. I want to please Christ. I will never therefore do things that will hurt my relationship with Him or others. My salvation is not based on how I do in this regard. The Holy Spirit brings me back every time. No believer in Jesus can sin repeatedly without the Holy Spirit's rebuke. God disciplines HIS children. That all being said, there is a veil that keeps people looking at the law and Moses - and prevents people from seeing Jesus as Savior and Lord. Have you asked God to remove yours? Have you asked God to remove the spirit of adventism that is keeping you in such painful confusion?" Are you ready to embrace Christ alone without the "(false) safety net" of believing you are in the remnant church? It will require you to give up the security of everything you were brought up with. It will cost everything you are and once believed as truth. God will replace it will something far better - and probably unimaginable to anything you have now. With that comes peace - unbelievable, unmistakable, unshakable peace. Life in this world will still bring hurts, but facing them with Christ - knowing Christ is so amazing. God says that without faith it is impossible to please Him. I wish you faith and peace. | ||
| Joyfulheart Registered user Username: Joyfulheart Post Number: 811 Registered: 10-2006 |
Jim, First of all, I want you to know I've been praying for you for a long time. I so want you to have the peace and joy that I have found in Christ alone, Christ the Savior who paid my debt and saved me. You posted recently that you still are reading and believe Ellen Whites writings are at least partially true. I am convinced that as long as you are accepting even some of her writings as inspired truth, you will be in heart wretching confusion. She wrote (copied) some things that are true. The things she wrote that are not true are drawing you into confusion and away from Christ. Ellen White's writings must be rejected before you will ever be able to embrace the truth of the Bible. I strongly suggest that you box up her stuff and read the Bible alone. Even SDA's say you don't NEED her writings. I offer a few points that helped me. 1. Neither Jesus, his disciples, nor anyone else with spiritual authority ever told anyone to be sure to keep the Sabbath. In fact, Jesus appears to have diminished it's importance before the Jews. Paul in all his admonitions to the church never reminded anyone to keep the Sabbath. It seems like all the Gentiles coming to Christ would have needed some teaching about what the Sabbath is and how it is to be kept if they were to keep it. 2. There is nothing wrong with not working on the Sabbath. If you don't want to work on the Sabbath - don't do it. There's no problem. I have lazy days, too. I love to spend time reading my Bible, listening to Christian music, taking walks etc. Don't violate your conscience. All that being said though, know that doing those things will win you nothing before God. You're not getting "brownie points." Our righteousness is as filthy rags before God and gets us nothing. The price was paid for your salvation long ago on the cross. In following Jesus, we repent of known and unknown sin, acknowledge and thank Him for purchasing our salvation through His death on the cross, choose to follow Jesus and make Him our Lord. The Holy Spirit will teach, remind and convict you of anything you need to know or do. The Holy Spirit is amazing. He will keep drawing you back to Jesus. You don't need the law anymore! I strongly suggest that you memorize Galatians 2:20-21. Know that if your obedience and law keeping could have saved you, Jesus would never have had to die. The law is our tutor tobring us to Christ. When paul says in Romans that he establishes the law, one needs to ask - to do what? What is the purpose of the law? It has served it's purpose in my life. My sin is ever before me. I am a sinner. I need mercy. I need grace. I have found all those things in Christ. I want to please Christ. I will never therefore do things that will hurt my relationship with Him or others. My salvation is not based on how I do in this regard. The Holy Spirit brings me back every time. No believer in Jesus can sin repeatedly without the Holy Spirit's rebuke. God disciplines HIS children. What convictions are you seeking? What Gospel are you believing? What do you believe happened at the cross when Jesus died and was resurrected? Your confusion may be resulting simply from a misunderstanding of the true gospel. You say you trust Christ, but to do what? What does that mean? For what are you trusting Christ? There is a veil that keeps people looking at the law and Moses - and prevents people from seeing Jesus as Savior and Lord. Have you asked that God remove yours? Have you asked God to remove the "Spirit of Adventism?" Are you ready to embrace Christ alone without the "(false) safety net" of believing you are in the remnant church? It will require you to give up the security of everything you were brought up with. It will cost everything you are and once believed as truth. God will replace it will something far better - and probably unimaginable to anything you have now. With that comes peace - unbelievable unmistakable unshakable peace. Life in this world will still bring hurts, but facing them knowing Christ is so amazing. God says that without faith it is impossible to please Him. I wish you faith and peace. | ||
| Cloudwatcher Registered user Username: Cloudwatcher Post Number: 331 Registered: 5-2009  |
I may have written this here before, I'm not sure. Here it is again. Reading Hebrews 3 and 4 was what did it for me re: the Sabbath. I was studying the life of Moses at the time (ex - deut.) and I kept seeing how God would give Israel a real, tangible *thing* and then in the New Testament Jesus was that *thing* in a spiritual sense. Here are some examples: The Manna - Exodus 16 Jesus is the "true bread from heaven" - John 6:31, 32 Passover lamb- Exodus 12:43-50 see v. 46 and compare it to John 19:33, 36 Jesus, the lamb of God - John 1:29 Rock -- Exodus 33:12-23 (this one blew my mind...to see how we hide in Jesus, the Rock, to get a glimpse of God's glory). Psalm 19:14 - describes the Lord as our rock and our redeemer Water from the Rock- Exodus 17 Jesus - 1 Corinthians 10:1-5 - John 4:10-15 Not to mention the parallels with being rescued from the bondage of sin (as spelled out in Romans) like the Israelites were rescued from Egypt. This showed me the incredible way that the Bible is supernaturally woven together and symbolic. Only God Himself could make it so intricate and detailed and meaningful, using people to write and preserve over the span of thousands of years. Nobody could have made this up, or pulled off this elaborate scheme. Seriously, when I realized the above, I literally saw the Sabbath deflate (like a balloon) and crumple in front of me. The Sabbath day had been so HUGE all of my life and to see it now, as a SHADOW of JESUS! (Colossians 2:16,17)...it seemed so silly. Now when people ask me if I keep the Sabbath, it sounds as ridiculous as if they were to ask me if I still do sacrifices in the Temple...or keep the Feasts (the Sabbath was a feast, see Lev. 23) Because I was studying the life of Moses, it was easy for me to see how the law was given to God's people, the Israelites. There's no indication that anyone else was asked to follow that standard, not before or after the cross. These things were given to Israel so they could recognize the Messiah when He came. If you're afraid that if you don't keep the Sabbath, that you're going to be lost, then I think you should leave Sabbath on the shelf and start praying and studying about salvation. You won't feel any freedom to explore theological topics until you feel full and complete security in Christ. | ||
| Cloudwatcher Registered user Username: Cloudwatcher Post Number: 332 Registered: 5-2009 |
A couple more points.... About the unified law... it became obvious to me when reading Exodus as a whole that the 10C were only separated from the rest of the law because the people said, "wait a sec. moses, you tell us. listening to this straight from God is too scary!" So Moses says, "okay, I'll hear from God and then deliver the message to you," and then the law keeps going. The 10c are the words of the Covenant, but to elevate them above the rest of the law is something that has been done to the text, it's not something that the text itself promotes or teaches. After I'd officially left SDA is when I began to study the Covenants on my own. After doing that, I thought, "wow, it's even easier to *get* if you read the Covenants." The alternative to not living by the Law is not lawlessness. It's living by the Spirit. Hope some of this helps. | ||
| 1john2v27nlt Registered user Username: 1john2v27nlt Post Number: 265 Registered: 5-2009 |
Cloudwatcher Quote: If you're afraid that if you don't keep the Sabbath, that you're going to be lost, then I think you should leave Sabbath on the shelf and start praying and studying about salvation. You won't feel any freedom to explore theological topics until you feel full and complete security in Christ. ================================================== I totally agree. I have needed to FIND & FOCUS on JESUS first & HIS so great salvation. Jesus said 'Read Moses & the Prophets, & you will find they are about ME.' So I am reading the whole bible with that question in mind for God to answer. Jim02, you are free to ask humans questions & God my speak His truth through them to you. But humans are NOT our authority. The Holy Spirit is our NT teacher. Spiritual insight & understanding comes through Him. HE convicts, & converts. That is HIS JOB. NOT a HUMAN being's job. Take your questions to GOD & His WORD & WRESTLE it out with HIM. All the things we humans say are simply human sayings. Test the SPIRITS; compare them to the WORD of God. Stop looking to humans - forums, books, tapes, sermons - for TRUTH or to be your authority. They are simply SOURCES of information & opinion. God may use them to help us, but we must ASK HIM if He is doing so. And that is simply MY OPINION. Ask God about that too! ~J9 | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 1698 Registered: 7-2007 |
Actually the thing that did it for me as I was just learning these things, was learning that there actually WAS a new covenant that had been brought in (Hebrews 9:15-17) and that the old one was obsolete (Hebrews 8:13)! And then finding out that the old covenant WAS the Ten Commandments (Deuteronomy 4:13) and then finding out that it had been ONLY given to Israel (Deuteronomy 5:2-3) just blew me away!!! And then finding that not only was the Sabbath NOT repeated in the new covenant (New Testament), but that it was simply a shadow of Jesus (Colossians 2:16,17) - WOW!!! | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 12268 Registered: 12-2003  |
I agree with Delina and Asurprise above. Jim, if you want to know what is true, you have to stop reading the prophet of a religion along with Scripture. You have to surrender to God your "right" and your "fear" of leaving behind everything that is not Scripture and the Lord Jesus Himself. You need to ask God to teach you what is true and let go of your impulse to check out what EGW says or to engage in conversations with SDAs about theology. They are influenced by a spirit of Adventism, and those conversations create confusion. Finally, if you are uncertain how to trust and believe, stop worrying about Sabbath, as Delina said, and go back to dealing with the Lord Jesus and surrender your life to Him. If you add anything to the pure gospel (Jesus died, was buried, and rose on the third day...2 Cor 15:1-4), it is heresy. Colleen | ||
| Cloudwatcher Registered user Username: Cloudwatcher Post Number: 337 Registered: 5-2009 |
Colleen... you mean, Cloudwatcher? | ||
| Indy4now Registered user Username: Indy4now Post Number: 1012 Registered: 2-2008  |
haha! | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 12272 Registered: 12-2003 |
AACH! I mean Cloudwatcher! I'm sorry! | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 1700 Registered: 7-2007 |
Jim; I second what Cloudy said right after your first post on this thread. I'm wondering if he or she might be right about this. quote: "It still seems that you may have a spiritual stronghold to deal with before you can find peace." I'm just wondering, because it [the gospel] seems so simple to me. Don't feel like I'm singling you out though, because it happened to me too, in a different way. Back when I was learning that the SDA church was a false church, (actually I was almost to the point of arriving at that conclusion) I would come home after work and open up the Bible and study. Then, once when I came home and opened the Bible up, the words made no sense to me - any more than if I had been trying to read a foreign language. It was DEFINITELY supernatural and it wasn't as if the devil had ever messed with me before. When I was an SDA, he left me strictly alone. I was exactly where he wanted me - lost because I couldn't put my weight down on Jesus' finished work (due to SDA teaching.) I prayed, but nothing happened. [I wasn't saved yet.] The thick dark fog keeping me from understanding the least thing that I was studying in the Bible, remained. I could think clearly about any other subject - just not what I'd been studying in the Bible. As soon as I had a chance though, I asked a friend of mine who was saved. Immediately she prayed and as soon as she did, the fog evaporated!!! Anyway, Jim; awhile back you said that someone near to you was into some things like perhaps horoscopes or palm reading or something?? I replied that if the person was in your home, that could invite a demonic stronghold that would keep everyone in the house confused as to spiritual things - something like that. (I don't remember exactly what I said.) When I said that, you seemed concerned that the person in question might find out what you'd written and I think you went so far as to want the thread closed down. I'm just saying, if the devil is given an opening, he takes it. Before I was saved, I was still vulnerable to his attacks. When he saw he was losing me from the kingdom of darkness, he reacted in a desperate way! (Message edited by Asurprise on February 23, 2011) | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1091 Registered: 5-2007 |
Everyone, Thank You. I want to read this string a few more times . Jim | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 12278 Registered: 12-2003 |
Jim, I often pray that God will show me what I need to know and plant me firmly in truth and reality. He will show you if there is some spiritual compromise you need to surrender...even if the compromise is resistance to repenting of false religion. That resistance can be very deep and camouflaged. The Lord Jesus will make things plain as you are willing to hold loosely what you have and allow Him to be your all in all. Colleen | ||
| Bb Registered user Username: Bb Post Number: 890 Registered: 7-2004 |
Jim, I am sure you have answered this question before, but I don't seem to remember. You say you haven't found a church since you left. I was wondering if you have visited any lately? I seem to remember that you had disagreements with the theology in the ones you went to. I just want to encourage you to keep trying. If you don't find any nearby, search online for a good Bible based preacher to listen to. I think it would be a blessing to you in your search. Maybe even Pastor Mark Martin's sermons as he is from the background. In my own life, I feel that I can listen to a sermon by a pastor, and benefit from hearing God's word, but occasionally I might not feel in agreement with him, and I think this is the Holy Spirit helping me to discern truth. I allow that a pastor might feel that he is interpreting the Bible correctly, but God is telling me something different. It doesn't make me feel that I must run away from it if indeed it is not a salvational issue at stake. I feel that we as Christians are the "body of Christ" and we don't have it all perfectly figured out. But we are His and He is ours. I hope you understand what I am trying to say. Don't expect perfection and complete understanding of all things. It's a journey. |
