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Message |
Indy4now
Registered user
Username: Indy4now
Post Number: 1014
Registered: 2-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, February 24, 2011 - 1:46 pm: |     |
I missed that part Asurprise! What I liked in the Dawn Treader was how God changed Eustace from the dragon back to a boy. I thought that was a neat analogy of how God peels back our layers and reveals who we really are.
That makes me cringe that Reepichip said that... I'll have to look for that when it comes out on DVD. Maybe I'll have to check out the book again at the library.
vivian |
Martinc
Registered user
Username: Martinc
Post Number: 231
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, February 24, 2011 - 4:00 pm: | |
I return and this thread has taken on a life of its own!
First, a response to River's post. River, you said,
"...God is seen, not by means of religion or tradition, but by means of spirit, an instrument which is not identified with reason or the intellect."
"That marker is the intellect, that thing that needs to be put aside and surrendered up, because it stands between that Spirit and that truth."
First of all, I agree that the visitor I mentioned did not know us, and arrogantly made assumptions. That being true, I stand by what I said about us being more childlike than he was comfortable with. It wasn't just because we weren't intellectual enough for his taste. We are more open and often unsophisticated in talking about our problems, and that offended his sense of propriety. And that is a sign of God's activity in changing us.
You said that we see God with spirit, which is not an instrument that is identified with reason or the intellect. Sure, spirit is not identical to intellect, but it is not opposite to, or hostile to, intellect. Are you saying that spirit can only operate without our higher order thinking engaged? How can that be true, since you often use a very high level of thinking here on this forum right along with us? That thinking doesn't prevent your words from carrying spiritual truths.
I don't accept the premise that spirit and mind are enemies, if that's actually what you're saying. How could Paul write the book of Romans, without his thinking at a very high level of propositional truth and fine reasoning? His writings have set the standard for first class reasoning, yet they are inspired by the Spirit. Then there are the Biblical scholars who have enriched our understanding, and men like Luther, Edwards and Spurgeon, men of intellect. We are to love God with all our minds, not just the unreasoning, feeling, desiring parts. Instead of suppressing the mind, isn't spirit an instrument to rule the mind? God doesn't create mindless spirits, or spiritless minds.
The problem we both have with SDA-style intellectualism is that it is neither spiritual nor truthful. It is the piling up of a lot of verbose horse manure to cover up the humbling truths and shut out God. Our SDA flesh learned to use our intellects to hide the truth, to wear a smart looking mask and hide our nakedness and weaknesses. Sometimes I still do, yes. But it isn't because we're being too intelligent, or that we're using some part of our brains that God doesn't approve of. Believe me, everytime I sit down to write something, I submit my mind to Christ, who knows my weaknesses, and can enter my whole mind and give me words. I don't expect Him to dull my mind so I can hear His voice. I want to always tell the truth, not baffle people with a bunch of self-serving BS. The key here is repentance, submission, dependence, so that Christ takes every thought captive.
Right Vivian, that scene where Lucy enters Narnia for the first time is wonderful, and Georgie Henley (sp.?) does it perfectly. The first movie was truest to the book, and after that, the movies were less faithful, especially Dawn Treader. Asurprise, you're right, the grace theology of Lewis was replaced with personal merit there, and Aslan says at the end that Reepicheep has earned his way. Sad.
Well, I hope at least some of this was helpful.
Martin C |
Asurprise
Registered user
Username: Asurprise
Post Number: 1704
Registered: 7-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, February 24, 2011 - 6:37 pm: | |
Martin, threads do take on a life of their own sometimes! 
Indy4now; that scene is towards the beginning where Reepicheep is standing on top of the figurehead of the bowsprit of the ship (or whatever it's called.) He was singing and was startled when Lucy came up behind him, and then they got into a conversation where he said that.
I did like where Eustace said that there was nothing that he could do to change back into a boy again though - Aslan had to do it all! |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 7164
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, February 24, 2011 - 6:49 pm: | |
Martin,
Quot: First of all, I agree that the visitor I mentioned did not know us, and arrogantly made assumptions. That being true, I stand by what I said about us being more childlike than he was comfortable with. It wasn't just because we weren't intellectual enough for his taste. We are more open and often unsophisticated in talking about our problems, and that offended his sense of propriety. And that is a sign of God's activity in changing us.
Answer: So what? Do you care what they are comfortable with? Or about growing in your faith toward God? I stand by you in being having a simple child like faith. Matter of fact, I think the church has lost what you have found, you're enthusiastic about finding the new covenant.
Quote:You said that we see God with spirit, which is not an instrument that is identified with reason or the intellect. Sure, spirit is not identical to intellect, but it is not opposite to, or hostile to, intellect. Are you saying that spirit can only operate without our higher order thinking engaged? How can that be true, since you often use a very high level of thinking here on this forum right along with us? That thinking doesn't prevent your words from carrying spiritual truths.
I don't accept the premise that spirit and mind are enemies, if that's actually what you're saying. How could Paul write the book of Romans, without his thinking at a very high level of propositional truth and fine reasoning? His writings have set the standard for first class reasoning, yet they are inspired by the Spirit. Then there are the Biblical scholars who have enriched our understanding, and men like Luther, Edwards and Spurgeon, men of intellect. We are to love God with all our minds, not just the unreasoning, feeling, desiring parts. Instead of suppressing the mind, isn't spirit an instrument to rule the mind? God doesn't create mindless spirits, or spiritless minds.
No, thats not what I said, I didn't say we are to be stupid. You can buy a fifty pound sack of stupid cheap, when it gets expensive is when you open the sack and start spreading it around.
But if you didn't get it on the first pass, I doubt if you will get it if I repeat it, so I'll just pray that the Lord will help you get it.
River |
Mkfound
Registered user
Username: Mkfound
Post Number: 26
Registered: 1-2011
| | Posted on Thursday, February 24, 2011 - 6:58 pm: | |
River, I was thinking along the veins of what you wrote in your first post recently, as I read Tozer's 'The Pursuit of God'. For any that haven't read this book, it's essentially about stripping away 'religiosity' and searching after God Himself. He spoke a lot about seeking God with our spirit, and seeing Him with our 'inner eyes'.
I've looked back and feel that I have had this experience sometimes--when you feel God's presence, when He makes something known to you about his will, in a personal way, after much searching, the peace that comes when you pray, that can't be explained in a 'logical' way.
Maybe it's more than I can describe because when it comes to searching after God and worshiping Him in spirit, it can't be described very well in words.
In any case--my question is 'how' to make this a daily, minutely part of our lives? I think I'm understanding the premise, but maybe I overthink it, as you seemed to be getting at.
Or is it something that just grows, and we don't think about it? |
Martinc
Registered user
Username: Martinc
Post Number: 232
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Friday, February 25, 2011 - 8:56 am: | |
"But if you didn't get it on the first pass, I doubt if you will get it if I repeat it, so I'll just pray that the Lord will help you get it."
What the Lord is helping me get is that I need to quietly move on.
Martin C |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 7165
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, February 27, 2011 - 8:17 am: | |
Mkfound,
No, worship in spirit to Spirit cannot be fully described in words, that is where our logic fails.
As to your question:In any case--my question is 'how' to make this a daily, minutely part of our lives? I think I'm understanding the premise, but maybe I overthink it, as you seemed to be getting at.
Yes that is exactly what I was at least trying to get at. So many times we tend to overthink it if the Holy Spirit come upon us in a way that is not logical to our thinking.
The times of Holy Spirit anointing such as you mentioned does not come and stay on us in every minute of our lives, they are times of refreshing and after that faith must abound.
As Tozer spoke about seeking God with our spirit, and seeing Him with our 'inner eyes, what he is referring too has nothing to do with education, it has to do with the inner man. You may or may not overthink it,I don't know, but what I do know is this, when we are under annointed thought processes, we are under a higher power than ourselves, and if we fear it, fear holds us back, if we are afraid of ridicule when a spirit of uncontrolled weeping come upon us in a church service, that fear holds us back.
Many things holds us back from allowing God to lead us into that time of spirit to Spirit contact with him, fear of ridicule, fear of acting in a way that is not normal to us, fear of speaking in some unlearned language, fear of something that cannot be explained with our pea brains. God told Moses, "I am, that I am." He was too much for Moses and he is too much for us to comprehend with our minds, yet we are able to faintly make him out in through our 'innner eyes' the eyes of our own spirit as he reveals a part of his glory. These times of refreshing are not harmful to us, but rather helpful in the days ahead following those time of refreshing.
Martin, I didn't intend that as being nasty, I simply meant that only God can help you see in the 'inner man'. I hope you didn't quietly move on before you know that I was not intending to be nasty toward you, or to be hurtful.
River
P.S. Thats what I feel like doing an awful lot lately is to quietly move on. I think perhaps that is for the best of all concerned.
I want to get Tozer's book, I haven't read it.Maybe off Amazon? |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 7166
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, February 27, 2011 - 8:37 am: | |
Found it in pdf format in about three seconds. In the preface to the pdf addition it read: In this hour of all-but-universal darkness one cheering gleam appears:
within the fold of conservative
Christianity there are to be found increasing numbers of persons whose religious lives are
marked by a growing hunger after God Himself. They are eager for spiritual realities and will not be
put off with words, nor will they be content with correct “interpretations” of truth. They are athirst
for God, and they will not be satisfied till they have drunk deep at the Fountain of Living Water.
This is the only real harbinger of revival which I have been able to detect anywhere on the
religious horizon. It may be the cloud the size of a man’s hand for which a few saints here and there
have been looking. It can result in a resurrection of life for many souls and a recapture of that radiant
wonder which should accompany faith in Christ, that wonder which has all but fled the Church of
God in our day.
But this hunger must be recognized by our religious leaders. Current evangelicalism has (to
change the figure) laid the altar and divided the sacrifice into parts, but now seems satisfied to count
the stones and rearrange the pieces with never a care that there is not a sign of fire upon the top of
lofty Carmel.
But God be thanked that there are a few who care. They are those who, while they love
the altar and delight in the sacrifice, are yet unable to reconcile themselves to the continued absence
of fire. They desire God above all. They are athirst to taste for themselves the “piercing sweetness”
of the love of Christ about Whom all the holy prophets did write and the psalmists did sing.
There is today no lack of Bible teachers to set forth correctly the principles of the doctrines of
Christ, but too many of these seem satisfied to teach the fundamentals of the faith year after year,
strangely unaware that there is in their ministry no manifest Presence, nor anything unusual in their
personal lives.
They minister constantly to believers who feel within their breasts a longing which
their teaching simply does not satisfy.
That! my friends, is what I have been attempting to say.
I pray that there are those among you who will not be satisfied until you have drank deeply of his well, and having drank, that it will set your soul ablaze for the sake of others.
I pray this for myself also.
River |
Mkfound
Registered user
Username: Mkfound
Post Number: 29
Registered: 1-2011
| | Posted on Sunday, February 27, 2011 - 9:28 pm: | |
Yes, River, thanks for posting that portion of the book... I hope you get a chance to read Tozer's book 'A Pursuit of God'. It is interesting--I had the impression that you were telling us something similar to what I had been reading...
Sometimes I think God moves on us from a multitude of directions--in order to help us 'get' something important..., and I think that was the case with me, in any case, these past couple weeks. |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 7167
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Monday, February 28, 2011 - 6:10 am: | |
Having found God by prevenient grace, that which I cannot deny, then to have need to seek him is a paradox not easily answered.
It is said we bring nothing into this world and we shall take nothing out.
If we are to find God, then surely we will be naked, having every thread stripped away, every property, every last bit, without even shoes upon our feet, then we shall know him and he us.
The tithe payer insists on bring his ten percent to God as if the rest belongs to himself, but if we find God we will soon discover that we do not own the hundred nor the ten, but must lay our naked selves before his feet.
Then the splendor of this world, everything we have held dear, will fade in the light of his glorious presence. There is the other paradox, we give it all up, yet possess it all.
Paul knew that secret when he said. "I count it all as dung." When we have been with Jesus, then this worlds goods either mental or physical cease to have such value that it takes hold of us and dethrones the savior.
River |
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