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Jim02
Registered user
Username: Jim02
Post Number: 1098
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, February 27, 2011 - 2:37 pm: |     |
Jeremy,
18'For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished." (Matthew 5:17-18 NASB.)
Precondition: Unless an End time event, end of the age, the world would occur.
Precondition: Until all is fullfilled.
SDA: All is not fullfilled. The events of Thes and Rev have not transpired.
Forum: The ALL was fullfilled (in context) when Christ died on the crosss, since the sacrificial system ended. Therefor the law ended.
" I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. "
SDA : Make an example to magnify, demonstrate.
Forum. To complete the dispensation of the law and to usher in the NT.
"16 'The law and the prophets were until John. "
J: I don't know what to make of this passage.
Is this to suggest that the law and the era of prophets were ended when John began announcing the Advent of Christ?
Asurprise,
Not sure that I agree with you on this.
How did you arrive at that conclusion?
The Bible speaks of our behaviour constantly, being grafted in or out of the vine, accountability, judgement, faith, action, fruits.
We have a real part to do. While on one hand we cannot secure salvation on our merits, we can lose it for lack of merit. If we do not grow, it appears that we will be lost.
One example that jumps out at me is that the SDA are soft on the abortion issue. tehy perform abortions in soem of their hospitals.
While I believe it can be forgiven, the church essentially ducks the question and leaves it as a matter of personal conviction or choice. This makes a mockery of everything else IMO.
I do not know what EGW taught on the topic , trying to find out is another minefield of exposure.
If she taught it was OK, that would be even more conviction that she is false.
Romans 10:3-4 "...For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness..."
SDA: The Aim, The Pathway.
Forum: Christ ended the law.
"These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ."
This one carries weight. I hold onto to this.
The only thing I can do is to reread over and over until it sinks in.
Bible study groups is a good suggestion Skeeter. I will pray about that.
Jim |
Asurprise
Registered user
Username: Asurprise
Post Number: 1723
Registered: 7-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, February 27, 2011 - 3:58 pm: | |
Jim, notice John 15:5 where Jesus says: "...apart from Me you can do nothing." Read verses 1 through 8 to get the context.
Jim, what is our hope? Colossians 1:27 says: "To them God chose to make known how great among the Gentiles are the riches of the glory of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory."
Jim, first a person accepts Jesus as their Savior and they're saved THEN. See Ephesians 1:13,14 which says: "In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, Who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory."
Also notice 2nd Corinthians 3:7-8 where it compares the "ministry of death, carved in letters on stone" to the "the ministry of the Spirit."
Please stop considering the SDA church or any cult. Hebrews 1:1-2 says that God beforehand spoke by His prophets; "but in these last days He has spoken to us by his Son." |
Michaelmiller
Registered user
Username: Michaelmiller
Post Number: 254
Registered: 7-2010
| | Posted on Sunday, February 27, 2011 - 4:15 pm: | |
Jim: The Bible speaks about multiple judgments. The mistake you are making is to combine the "Great White Throne" judgment of Revelation with the "Bema Seat" judgment for believers. It is a common confusion that I'm sure most of us have been through at one point or another coming out of SDAism. You might want to consider studying this some.
Adventism works like this: Those believers who have taken on the name of Christ are entered into the book of life, and anyone in that book stands in judgment for their deeds recorded in a another book of record by a recording angel. If there are any unconfessed sins on record, the the salvation of the individual is lost. EGW talks about this in GC chapter 28 if I remember correctly. This is _not_ biblical!!!
Biblical: Believers are entered into the "book of life". Those in the book of life _do not_ enter into judgment from the book of record because Jesus is our substitute (the book with the recorded sins stands against unbelievers, not against those who have Jesus). Christians do enter another judgment though... a judgment of reward, not condemnation.
http://www.allaboutgod.com/bema-seat.htm
Michael |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 3603
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, February 27, 2011 - 6:36 pm: | |
Jim,
You wrote:
quote:The Bible speaks of our behaviour constantly, being grafted in or out of the vine, accountability, judgement, faith, action, fruits.
We have a real part to do. While on one hand we cannot secure salvation on our merits, we can lose it for lack of merit. If we do not grow, it appears that we will be lost.
As others have mentioned, herein lies your real problem. You are never going to have peace regarding the Law, the covenants, or the Sabbath until you believe in the Gospel, reject a false gospel of faith plus works, and trust in Jesus Christ alone for your salvation. It's that simple.
"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast." (Ephesians 2:8-9 NASB.)
Jeremy
(Message edited by Jeremy on February 27, 2011) |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 12294
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, February 28, 2011 - 12:20 am: | |
Jim, it is totally unbiblical to believe that Christ makes up for the difference between our best efforts and complete perfection. He does not "make up" for anything. When we believe and receive the Lord Jesus as our Savior and Lord, we are at that moment counted COMPLETELY righteous, even if we have all sorts of sin still at work in our flesh.
In Philippians 3 Paul describes his righteousness as a Jew. He even states that "as to the righteousness which is in the Law, [he was] found blameless" (v. 6).
He was completely compliant with the law, and he knew that, according to the commands of the law, he was blameless and doing God's will. But, when he came to know Christ, all those things he considered to be "Loss". Paul is referring to his obedience and legal observance; it is that obedience and honoring of the law which he counted as loss. Read Phil. 3:1-7 and see it in context.
He goes on to say that knowing Christ Jesus as his Lord is a value that surpasses ALL of the obedience and legal obligation that he valued before. He lost all things...his status, his scrupulous law-keeping, his religious observance and heritage. All was rubbish, and he counts all those things as rubbish for this reason:
quote:…that I may gain Christ, and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the aw, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith…(v. 8-9)
Jim, Paul is not describing doing his best to obey and having Jesus make up the difference. He gave up his law-keeping and his scrupulous honoring of the law so that he could gain Christ. He couldn't be transformed until he gave up his marriage to the law. Only then could he be found in Christ. Only when he gave up his focus on and obedience to the law could he have "the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith.
Notice that, Jim...he gained "righteousness which comes from God." It was not a righteousness which made up for his lack of ability to obey perfectly. He received alien righteousness. It had NOTHING AT ALL to do with obeying the law. It was from outside of himself.
Just for clarity and emphasis, notice these passages:
quote:…by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin. But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God through faith n Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction (Rom. 3:20-22).
Notice that no obedience to the law counts for ANYTHING. Only "alien righteousness" counts: only "the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ" counts. Moreover, the Law and the Prophets witnessed to this righteousness. The Law itself pointed to alien righteousness.
quote:But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter (Rom 7:6).
Notice this:
quote:Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him (2 Cor 5:20-21).
Jim, this passage states that we become reconciled to God by placing our faith in Christ (see verses 16-19). God reconciled the world to Himself "through Christ". When we receive Christ, we are reconciled to God. Jesus became sin for us so we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
Do you see that? We become the righteousness of God because Jesus became our sin. We become that righteousness only when we are "In Him"...only when we receive the Lord Jesus and His completed sacrifice for our sin.
See also Ephesians 2:8-10.
Jim, Catholicism and Adventism teach that Jesus makes up the difference between our best efforts and perfect righteousness. This is heresy.
The Bible teaches that when we accept the Lord Jesus, we are at that moment credited with complete righteousness, the literal righteousness of Christ. We are hidden in Christ, and God counts Him and His righteousness as ours. It has NOTHING whatsoever to do with our attention to the law.
When we have accepted the Lord Jesus, we come alive and pass from death to life (John 4:24). We cannot be snatched from His hand, and we cannot be "unborn". We are born of the spirit (Jn 3:3-5), and we will never die.
At that point, when we become alive and eternally secure in the Lord Jesus and credited with the perfect, complete righteousness of the Lord Jesus credited to our account, only then do we begin to be able to surrender our sins to Him. Only then can we begin to live by the Spirit and put to death the deeds of the flesh. But this new behavior change plays absolutely NO PART in our salvation. It is ALL a consequence of our being saved. We do not lose our salvation if we fail to perfect our behavior. We will lose rewards as per 1 Cor 3, but not salvation.
In the new covenant, it is not the Law which teaches us and convicts us of sin. It is the Holy Spirit who now does this (John 16:8-13). The Holy Spirit convicts the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment...and He does this through the words of Scripture and through the testimony of His witnesses who are alive in Him as well as through His own work on our personal hearts.
Jim, none of this will make sense unless you are willing to LET GO of the law and of your belief that Jesus makes up the difference between your behavior and perfect obedience. It is Jesus plus nothing: God is not asking us to keep the law as part of our qualifying for salvation. He asks us to believe that Jesus KEPT the law, BECAME our SIN, DIED our DEATH, and ROSE from the GRAVE to reconcile us to God and cause us to become the righteousness of God in Christ.
As long as you hold onto the unbiblical belief that God expects your obedience and that Jesus came to make up for what we can't manage, you will continue to feel tormented.
The work of God is to believe in the One whom He sent. That's all. Believe and receive the Lord Jesus and His sacrifice for you. Jesus alone is all you need. He doesn't need your attention to law; that keeps your eyes off Jesus. He just asks you to BELIEVE.
With prayers for you,
Colleen |
Christo
Registered user
Username: Christo
Post Number: 256
Registered: 2-2008
| | Posted on Monday, February 28, 2011 - 2:54 am: | |
Jim,
To go along with what Colleen recited about the bible stating that The Holy Spirit convicts you of sin. I wanted to mention the following.
You see the law is yea, and nay,,,,, you shall have,,,, you shall not,,,,,, you shall not,,,, remember,,,honour,, you shall not,,,,you shall not,,,you shall not,,, you shall not,, you shall not. Focusing on the dead works of the law, never produces a sinless life. As a matter of fact scripture promises just the opposite when it says that the law never made anyone perfect, and again where scripture promises that the law provokes sin. Also scripture says that what ever is not of faith is sin, and that the law is not of faith.
Now all the promises of God in Jesus are yea. They are Love and Faith . Its about His Love for us; and our love for him, and our love for others. Actually having Faith, in his love and care for us; and actually feeling love for other people, despite the circumstances.The Holy Spirit constantly prompts you to really feel his love, and caring for you. The Holy Spirit constantly prompts you to love him, and others. Its not about having faith in our faith, its about having faith in him. You will know big time when you are not being loving, or not having faith in Gods care for you. For to be unloving, or not having faith in Gods care for us, produces ill at ease feelings. We receive these promises of yea, when we believe in what Jesus did for us, and is doing for us. He is constantly loving us constantly. We receive these promises when we are in Christ.
Even though Gods word does not return void, we don't receive these promise from quotations from the Bible, or a minister, or a commentary, or someone on this Forum. Our faith is not in the quotation,Our faith is in who the Bible is pointing to . The promises are dispensed from God, not from the quotation. We actually believe, in who the Bible is referring to, Jesus, and know, and believe in him as the truth.
You see Jim, I think your relationship with quotations is getting in the way of your relationship with God. You are not alone in this, I think it is part or the human condition, a common stronghold that we all have. For many people the quotations don't even come from the Bible, but even if they are Biblical quotations, eternal life is never in the scriptures, eternal life is in who the scriptures point to, Jesus.
To be honest, it dawned on me the other day how in my efforts to disentangle myself from SDA, wwcg, and some general run of the mill," leaven of the pharisees" type preaching, mixed with truth, that I have heard come off of many protestant pulpits. I found myself, like a adopted orphan, who spent all his time looking at my adoption papers, as if I needed to make sure it were true,when I already knew in my heart that is is true. All this while I'm not paying much attention to Abba. Imagine a married couple spending their honeymoon sitting around the pool all day gazing at their marriage certificate, instead of gazing at each other. We would think they were crazy. Don't get me wrong, I am constantly encouraged by scripture, It's just that God is always eager to hang out with us when we are through looking over the paper work.
2 Corinthians 1:
18But as God is true, our word toward you was not yea and nay.
19For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by us, even by me and Silvanus and Timotheus, was not yea and nay, but in him was yea.
20For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.
Thank you Jesus for your love,
Chris |
Bb
Registered user
Username: Bb
Post Number: 895
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Monday, February 28, 2011 - 3:19 am: | |
Jim, you said:
"The Bible speaks of our behaviour constantly, being grafted in or out of the vine, accountability, judgement, faith, action, fruits.
We have a real part to do. While on one hand we cannot secure salvation on our merits, we can lose it for lack of merit. If we do not grow, it appears that we will be lost."
**********************************************
I don't seem to find where it says we are grafted out of the vine except for unbelief. I found that in Romans 11. Maybe there is another text somewhere?
***********************************************
Also, regarding works:
"then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase. 8 Now he who plants and he who waters are one, and each one will receive his own reward according to his own labor.
9 For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, you are God’s building. 10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it. 11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire." 1 Cor. 3
**********************************************
We have to answer to God regarding our works. We are His children if we give our lives to Him. Some of God's children didn't do a whole lot of good things in their life. Since God is a God of pure love, even more than we love our own children, we can trust that He will save us. However, he will pass out the rewards to those who gave a great deal of their efforts to Him. The thief on the cross is an example of one who didn't have good works or following the law on his side. Jesus saved him right then and there because He loved him!
I believe if we are grafted to the vine we will receive the source of life that is promised, and works play no part in it. The branch cannot do anything without the vine, and if we are not grafted, no amount of "doing" will give us life.
Also, observance of the Sabbath was not a command to "go to church". The trip up is thinking we have to "do" something in order to observe the commandment. It appears that "not doing something" was the command to the Jews so that they could be set apart as a people who looked for the Messiah who would give them the rest that they symbolically observed each week till Jesus fulfilled it by showing up and allowing them to ENTER THE REST that He had planned for them all along.
I hope this helps. |
Berit
Registered user
Username: Berit
Post Number: 79
Registered: 7-2007
| | Posted on Monday, February 28, 2011 - 8:48 am: | |
Hi Jim! I haven't posted for a while, but I'll give you my two cents. Actually what convinced me is worht more than a MILLION and still it's all for FREE!!!!
When I heard that some sdas had let go off the sabbath I just could not get it. But when I started studying about the Covenants I saw that the Sabbath was a part of the old Covenant, Jesus fullfilled it and established a new Covenant. To me it was quite shocking, but in the end very simple, and I gladly followed!
To me texts like Heb 8, 2 Cor 3, Galatians, Ephesians etc were very helpful in clearing things out to me.
Good luck and Gods blessing to you!!! |
Gcfrankie
Registered user
Username: Gcfrankie
Post Number: 781
Registered: 1-2007
| | Posted on Monday, February 28, 2011 - 10:26 am: | |
Oh Jim! How I can relate to what you are going through. I walked away from the sda church for 30yrs and got drawn back for another 10yrs before I could totally walk away for good and it all had to do with not letting go of the Sabbath. I had studied the NT and the two new laws Jesus had given us but could not really let go of the 4th commandment. I always kept a slim hold on it and lingering doubt because of the fear of could it be right and as long as I clung to that doubt and did not let go God could not deal with me about it. It was when I finally faced the hard fact that I had to let go and cried out to God to cleanse me of those doubts and guilt feelings. It did not happen over night but little by little God removed those doubts. God is not going to punish you if you want to keep the sabbath as your day of worship as long as you do not turn it into an idol worship and harden your heart. Since you are struggling with this for now why don't you look and see if there is a 7th Day Baptist church in you area? I know you have health issues so this is only a suggestion.
I don't know anything about them so research them out.
Everyone has given you many bibical references to look up and I could not add to them so I decided to give you my experience and hope maybe it will help you.
I have put this on here before but I am going to do it again. It is a poem with author unknown.
BROKEN DREAMS
As children bring their broken toys
with tears for us to mend.
I brought my broken dreams to God
because He was my Friend
But instead of leaving Him
in peace to work alone,
I hung around and tried to help
with ways that were my own.
At last I snatched them back and cried.
"How can you be so slow?"
"My child," He said. "What could I do?
You never let them go."
Letting go is really tough! We are used to being in our own comfort zone so to speak and God is asking us to give up and walk away from that zone as he has something better for us.
Gail |
Hec
Registered user
Username: Hec
Post Number: 1638
Registered: 3-2009
| | Posted on Monday, February 28, 2011 - 3:39 pm: | |
"I do my best and God makes up the rest."
What is my best? 50%, 30%, 20%? What if I only do 1%? Would that be my best and God would make up the rest? So if my best is 0%, would God make up the rest? It seems to me that my best IS 0% based on Isaiah 64:6: "For all of us have become like one who is unclean,
And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment;"
So God makes up 100% and I don't have to worry about any of it.
"Rom 3:23,24: "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;
All fall short. Does it matter how short we fall? If I need to jump a chasm of 100 feet and I fall 50 feet short, and you fall 90 feet short, and she falls 100 feet short, does it matters? Either someone crosses us 100% or we don't cross. None of us since we all fell short.
So enjoy the free gift. It's a 100% free. No make up, not partial present, but 100% of Jesus. Just enjoy it.
Hec |
Nowisee
Registered user
Username: Nowisee
Post Number: 745
Registered: 5-2009
| | Posted on Monday, February 28, 2011 - 10:28 pm: | |
Wow, what great posts from everyone.
Hec, you gave me a wonderful word picture--I love it! If I miss the chasm when I jump, even by one millionth of a percent, I still fall into the ravine below and die. Jesus is our bridge over the chasm...will we accept His gift? Or stay stubborn and DIY? |
Mkfound
Registered user
Username: Mkfound
Post Number: 33
Registered: 1-2011
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 01, 2011 - 3:43 pm: | |
Hi Jim,
I guess what really helped me was the following:
living by the law (10 Commandments + some others)
or walking in the Spirit
I get the confusion regarding what some Christian churches proclaim. They will use the 10 Commandments to say 'this is what God expects of us'. To an Adventist or former, this begs the questions--what about the 4th? Why are you leaving that one out?
But in fact, it is not about living according to the Mosaic law anymore. The new way is the way of the Holy Spirit. He teaches us what to do. He puts His love in our hearts--which is why Paul can say those who love have fulfilled the law. After all, if I love my fellow neighbour, I won't kill, steal from them, lie to them, commit adultery in my marriage, I will honour my parents, etc. But it will go far beyond the 'thou shalt nots' because of God's work on us. Anything good that comes out of us will be coming from Him. The love that we have for others will not be self-serving or acted upon in guilt, (we can't fake true love, as a great thread asserts).
So try to think of it as 2 polar opposites: living by the law OR having the Spirit live in you and work through you. This is where the trust comes in--that God will indeed work through you.
And ultimately, the good news of the gospel is that salvation is entirely on God's part. He justifies and sanctifies us. We do not justify ourselves. And we cannot sanctify ourselves. From beginning to end--this all belongs to God. |
Raven
Registered user
Username: Raven
Post Number: 1170
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, March 03, 2011 - 6:45 pm: | |
I just had a thought about the Matthew 5:17 and 18 verses where SDAs say it refers to the 10 C's and all hasn't been fulfilled yet. Doesn't that contradict the other SDA teaching that the 10 C's are eternal - always existed and always will exist?
So let me get this straight: when the Second Coming happens and all is completely fulfilled, then it will be ok to kill, steal, etc? Apparently there won't be any 10 C's then because "all will be fulfilled" - so how can people operate without the 10 C's?
Maybe the way Christians are operating now post-cross: Love one another as the Holy Spirit leads and prompts.
(Message edited by Raven on March 03, 2011) |
Michaelmiller
Registered user
Username: Michaelmiller
Post Number: 262
Registered: 7-2010
| | Posted on Thursday, March 03, 2011 - 6:59 pm: | |
Raven -
LOL... I never really noticed that SDA inconsistency (fulfilled at second coming versus eternal nature of the law), but you are correct.
Michael |
Michaelmiller
Registered user
Username: Michaelmiller
Post Number: 263
Registered: 7-2010
| | Posted on Thursday, March 03, 2011 - 7:01 pm: | |
...and here I've been focusing on the other obvious inconsistency: if it isn't yet fulfilled, why do SDAs not keep every "jot and tittle"?
Michael |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 12314
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 04, 2011 - 12:25 am: | |
Ohh...good point, Raven!
Colleen |
Jim02
Registered user
Username: Jim02
Post Number: 1099
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, March 12, 2011 - 8:00 am: | |
Michael,
Thank you for the link. That website has many interesting articles.
Jeremy,
You wrote: As others have mentioned, herein lies your real problem. You are never going to have peace regarding the Law, the covenants, or the Sabbath until you believe in the Gospel, reject a false gospel of faith plus works, and trust in Jesus Christ alone for your salvation. It's that simple.
J: Yes, I agree, in large part this is a lot of my problem. I struggle with the concept of dove-tailing admonitions and precepts together to form a consistant view of salvation.
The concept of judgement for our works good/bad as a separate issue from salvation itself is another part of this big picture.
I am not so dense that I do not grasp the idea of salvation being a free gift.
You said the simple Gospel.
Just what is the Biblical definition of the Gospel?
Faith seems to be the key in obtaining Salvation.
In my understanding, mechanically speaking, faith is the action of trusting in Christ for Salvation by simply asking for it.
But scripture says, many are called but few chosen. Jesus said He is the vine.
There are so many conditional precepts in the Bible that point towards additional actions to "maintain", "continue", "hold onto" salvation.
The book of James causes confusion.
That old faith without works is dead trap.
Colleen,
Only when he gave up his focus on and obedience to the law could he have "the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith.
J:I keep coming back to this. I really need to focus on the reality of Grace.
You said;
Jim, it is totally unbiblical to believe that Christ makes up for the difference between our best efforts and complete perfection.
J:Is that really true? That is one of the shackles to legalism that defines some of my thinking. Again, I need to study Grace.
Some suggest this 'is' the Gospel.
Do we accept Christ (our idea) or has Christ called us? How do we know?
The work of God is to believe in the One whom He sent. That's all. Believe and receive the Lord Jesus and His sacrifice for you. Jesus alone is all you need. He doesn't need your attention to law; that keeps your eyes off Jesus. He just asks you to BELIEVE.
J:This and much more, I am trying to recieve, to absorb.
Christo,
Its not about having faith in our faith, its about having faith in him.
J: I wonder a lot about that. Faith in my faith makes faith my works. My mind can be confused, I drift, I forget. If my faith is a test of the faith itself, then it becomes a test of my ability to organize my thoughts. But a faith in Christ even a flicker, calling upon His Name, even once, no matter what, I cannot be pulled out of His hand, THIS is the peace I long for.
When people age and lose the faculties, when life falls apart, when bad things happen and we cannot even think, faith must be there. Even without words, faith must be there.
C: You see Jim, I think your relationship with quotations is getting in the way of your relationship with God.
J: Absolutely. It is because I am trying to merge all of it as instructions and getting lost in the details.
This past week , I had to proof out a complex wiring diagram that was brought to my attention as possibly having an error in it. It took me hours and 8 scenario tracings of the circuits under different conditions to discover and prove how the system worked and to discover two errors which were corrected.
Now scripture is even more complex , in fact , off the scale.
In technical reality, mistakes can be costly.
Scripturaly, I fear the same is true. Thus, a world full of religons all asking the same questions & often arriving at different conclusions.
This is one of the main reason I have stayed with the forum. I find many answers here. I discover things I have missed a thousand times.
So , understanding is a good thing. But it cannot be salvation itself. I am beggining to see that.
So much more here.
I wanted everyone to know, I am listening.
Thank you, everyone.
Jim |
Jim02
Registered user
Username: Jim02
Post Number: 1100
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, March 12, 2011 - 12:12 pm: | |
Raven ,
I have always taken that passage to mean the law as written for the Human mortal state here in this present earth would not change. Which implied that it may be expanded, contracted or modified to adapt to the eternal reality of mankind on the new earth, such as, since we would not be marrying or given in marriage that law may be reworded in some applicable way etc..
However , as one interpretation suggests, that we would gather each Sabbath and new moon to worship, thus suggesting that the law would be in perpetuity in some consistant form.
Jim
Mind you , that does not mean the theory is correct. |
Jim02
Registered user
Username: Jim02
Post Number: 1101
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, March 12, 2011 - 12:49 pm: | |
How then do we rectify passages that list exclusions?
In various places , even Paul points out examples of those who will not be included.
I think of addictive behaviours, pick one.
After accepting Christ, what changes?
If a drunkard (alcoholic, drugs , whatever) is still held by their addiction, are they saved?
St.Paul says they are not.
Yet St.Paul says they are in other ways.
I do understand the idea that as we live by The Spirit we will trend in that direction of responding out of Love towards God and man.
I get sidetracked with the dire warnings.
Once upon a time I used my endurance to shoulder up to the demands of religion. But I realize , it was my strength more often than not and now that I have health issues and some tough situations, my strength is not enough anymore. That peace cannot be found in what I can muster on any level. Which kind of makes Hec's point.
So I started relying on the idea that that Christ makes up for what we cannot offer in perfection of obedience. That was how I was merging the gift of salvation and the expectations (fruits, laws, growing) in some vague idea of doing my part.
Bb spoke of foundations. I always thought it was upon Christ, our Rock.
But Colleen says that Christ's part with my efforts is heresy.
I keep trying to take steps forward, but trip over my own basic understandings. I have never felt so inept about anything as I do theology.
I am just not that stupid. Yet, I keep hitting these apparent contradictions. I believe I am making progress here and there. Just not enough to gain the abiding peace I need.
During the week, I do fairly ok, I feel like I am a bit closer to living daily by God's Spirit, but when Sabbath arrives, it is like a shorted circuit and the 'habit of' (preconditioned)stress comes with it. Often I wake up sick to my stomach, dreading another Sabbath day.
I read that you attack a problem from it's weakest point. For me that has been mostly trying to dismantle the errors in my understandings about religion.
It is not enough to conquer fears or hesitations about change or something new, if the underlying convictions are not in place.
Because I am usually pushing against conviction or in the face of darkness or confusion.
My sister pointed out that there is such a things as a negative faith, that is accepting untruths that undermine us.
This is why it is so important to me that I build upon a foundation of truth as it is in Christ. In my thinking, that seems to be the whole of the NT. It is the 'whole' that I am finding very difficult to bring together.
I am not talking about knowing it all, or complete understandings. But at least enough to maintain a fortress of peace in Christ.
I have been rereading a couple books I have from the forum. Trying to review the key points. There is so much to bring together, the small pieces that build the frame to even have the ability to keep it simple.
Simple is not simple unless you already have the ingredients.
Yet, there is a simple faith to start.
Letting go, maybe it is that simple.
If I do not try to solve it, then perhaps it solve itself and the ingredients will appear by God's Spirit.
Jim |
Asurprise
Registered user
Username: Asurprise
Post Number: 1754
Registered: 7-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, March 12, 2011 - 8:03 pm: | |
Jim; concerning that old person who goes senile and can't remember any of his family - not even their names or faces; is he still in the family? Is his sister and brother STILL his sister and brother? Are his children and grandchildren still his children and grandchildren?
It's the same way in the family of God. You stay God's child once you've accepted Jesus as your Savior even if your mind gets old and forgets Him. James was written to believers to encourage them to do the good works that God wanted to do through them. They were ALREADY saved - whether they DID anything for God or not. We are not saved by good works. |
Asurprise
Registered user
Username: Asurprise
Post Number: 1755
Registered: 7-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, March 12, 2011 - 8:10 pm: | |
Jim; I notice that you're really badly blocked by the enemy since you've been confused for years. I hope you don't mind my asking, but have you EVER done anything to your knowledge that might have opened the door to the enemy - any occult activity, no matter how harmless it seemed?? |
Jim02
Registered user
Username: Jim02
Post Number: 1102
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, March 13, 2011 - 1:03 pm: | |
Asurprise,
I would say that my folly as a youth would not have been unusual.
One thing that I do recall was playing with a Quija board when I was 13. It was actually a Christmas gift of all things. My brother and I messed with it for a season until my Aunt got wind of it and told us about it's true nature.
At the time, being of Catholic background, we thought it was powered by Saints, (but we surmised it was also possible that a bad spirit could connect) Either way, we mixed it around to rationalize it. Once we became aware of the true nature of it. We threw it out , and long since repented of that tinkering.
I do not consider myself possessed. As in the classic sense of the word.
I will admit to being decieved, oppressed and confused by the Evil influences that are part of my exposure and background to everyday life in this world.
Bad theology for one.
I suspect that the devil attacks all of us any time he can, from any of a number of ways.
Ironically, I was watching Pastor Ron Phillips (on TV) this morning and have ordered a book on Spiritual warfare.
Jim |
Asurprise
Registered user
Username: Asurprise
Post Number: 1763
Registered: 7-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, March 13, 2011 - 7:30 pm: | |
Jim; I'm GLAD you repented of playing with that Ouija board!
Compare your life to a man chained to a wall. The man is chained, but he's also turned and turned until the chain is wrapped several times around him. Now someone comes along and cuts the chain, but the man needs to turn around a few times so the links fall off of him.
Jesus has cut the chain, but the links are the lies of the enemy who has bound you. You need to read no other source for spiritual nourishment, except the Bible. You need to bury yourself in the Word of God and by doing so, take every thought captive - every confusing thought captive to the Word of God - the Bible; so that the lies of Satan will be broken. He repeats and repeats and repeats his lies, so you need to read and read and read the Bible - not Ellen White or any other "spiritual authority."
"The truth shall make you free" John 8:32 (The Word - the Bible - is the truth.) Satan has his claws in your mind, but the ONE thing that will take his claws out is reading the Word of God.
You can be set free right now by one simple choice - read only the Word of God, not Ellen White, for your spiritual nourishment. Of course, read it with prayer! I'm praying for you. |
Jim02
Registered user
Username: Jim02
Post Number: 1103
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Monday, March 14, 2011 - 6:19 pm: | |
Asurprise,
I read my Bible daily, I listen to Christian radio, I pray, , I read Christian articles.
I do not read EGW except when it is quoted on this forum.
I agree, it is the lies of the devil that so often ruin my peace, in so many ways. But I also know that it is also 'me, myself and I' that generate so much of it.
I think we all do that to one degree or another.
The thoughts of ones own cumilative reasonings are probably where most of it comes from.
Discovering truth dispells faulty logic and misinformation.
The devil's lies. Where do they come from?
I think they are the consequential outworkings of darkness.
Spiritual anchoring in truth and faith is everything.
Jim |
Asurprise
Registered user
Username: Asurprise
Post Number: 1765
Registered: 7-2007
| | Posted on Monday, March 14, 2011 - 7:15 pm: | |
Jim; you also need to take every thought captive. What I mean is, whenever you start thinking there's something YOU have to do, or you're not good enough; say: "it's finished. Jesus finished it all and gave me His perfect righteousness."
Don't let those thoughts stay more than a couple seconds!
I liked your last line: "Spiritual anchoring in truth and faith is everything."
Dianne  |
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