| Author | Message | ||
| Wiredog Registered user Username: Wiredog Post Number: 92 Registered: 8-2010  |
In church today Chuck Swindoll was continuing his exposition on the Book of Mark. We were on Mark Chapter 9 verses 1-13. I was writing notes in my Bible as he exposited--this was something I never did or saw happen in SDA services. When Chuck got to verse 7 - 8 he pointed out something I NEVER understood before. It was that on the Mount, Moses and Elijah (i.e., the Law and the Prophets) both appeared with Jesus, but God the father says, "This is My beloved Son, listen to HIM!" [emphasis added]. Verse 8 ends with only Jesus left standing there with THEM his disciples. The Law and the Prophets faded away as shadows they disappeared, but Christ our Salvation still remained. I looked through the fAF archives and saw that Colleen also wrote about this in 2002 & 2003 after reading Pastor Dale Ratzlaff's book. I was amazed how I never caught this. It only reinforces my conviction that Adventism teaches and emphasizes doctrines contrary to Scripture. To me the additional weight is given by Verses 1 and 9. Verse 1 Jesus was calling to the crowd and his disciples, saying LISTEN, some of you here won’t die till you see the Kingdom of God arrive in great power (cf. 2 Peter 1:16-18) where Peter writes what the “arrival” was. Verse 9 records Jesus telling Peter, James & John to keep this to themselves, “until the Son of Man rose from the dead.” because to them and anyone they might have told, the events would seem meaningless and utter nonsense till after Jesus nailed the Law and its requirements to the Cross (viz. Col 2:14) and fulfilled the prophecies. What a Divine plan, Christ did not to come to be an example. Dead men don't benefit from examples; He came to be my Savior and my sacrifice! | ||
| Nowisee Registered user Username: Nowisee Post Number: 711 Registered: 5-2009 |
Amen! I never, even as a college student (and I was co-leading branch Sabbath Schools at the time!) I could never understand WHY Christ had to go through a tortuous death just so we'd know He loved us. Just to be an example to us. I would have believed Him--all He had to do was tell me! I did not have a concept of PAYMENT for my sins, of Him taking my place...in other words, like Wiredog, not understanding clearly why He needed to be my Savior. I desperately needed a Savior! Now, maybe this was taught more clearly to you younger members of the forum...but a payment by the perfect Lamb of God who became a sacrifice was not at all clearly taught throughout my 16 years of SDA education. And if I did get a whiff of Grace, that pesky IJ negated it! Isn't it cool how the Bible makes so much more sense now?! | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 1601 Registered: 3-2009 |
Doesn't Elijah represents those who will be translated to heaven without seeing death, and Moses the ones who will be resurrected? Hec | ||
| Wiredog Registered user Username: Wiredog Post Number: 93 Registered: 8-2010 |
Hec, IMHO I believe that typing and anti-typing is very reminescent of SDA-ology. I recall hearing that taught in Adventist Academy. The only reference I could find teaching that is no from the Bible but rather from-- Desire of Ages, page 421-422 "Moses upon the mount of transfiguration was a witness to Christ's victory over sin and death. He represented those who shall come forth from the grave at the resurrection of the just." "Elijah, who had been translated to heaven without seeing death, represented those who will be living upon the earth at Christ's second coming, and who will be 'changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump." I think there is an wrong assumption (viz., isogesis) that Jude 9 says God resurrected Moses. That interpretation has to be true in order for EGW's teaching to also be true. | ||
| Doc Registered user Username: Doc Post Number: 652 Registered: 2-2003  |
I think the main point here is that Jesus fullfils the law and the prophets, but I have heard the resurrection/rapture idea before, and not from SDAs. Biblical stories often have multiple layers of meaning, so there is no reason why it should not indicate both. The idea of Moses being raised from the dead can be refuted by the fact that Jesus was the first fruits of the resurrection (1 Cor 15: 20) and the first to be raised from the dead (Col 1: 18, Acts 26: 23). That means that Moses was not raised from the dead (permanently, as it would have to be for the EGW theory to work), 1500 years earlier. Personally, I think this is nonsense. However, the passage could still refer to Moses who will be raised from the dead, and Elijah who was raptured. It still works. | ||
| Wiredog Registered user Username: Wiredog Post Number: 94 Registered: 8-2010 |
Doc, Thanks for the additional insight RE: the Moses / Elijah Type Anti-type. One of the things I see I struggle with and am hyper-vigilant about, is the etymology of some of the beliefs I have in my head but cannot clearly identify where it came from. Cheers | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 12243 Registered: 12-2003  |
Wiredog, yes. I know what you mean about struggling to understand where my beliefs came from. Only now, about 13 years out, I'm beginning to have a more cohesive "big picture", and I'm seeing that almost everything I believed as an Adventist was tainted with untruth. The fact is we had a different Jesus, a different humanity, a different salvation, a different judgment...and nothing was actually REAL. So even though we knew the right words, we had the wrong interpretation of them because our worldview was shaped by the Great Controversy instead of by the Bible. Colleen | ||
| Doc Registered user Username: Doc Post Number: 653 Registered: 2-2003 |
Wiredog, I understand how that must feel, though I have never been SDA myself. I have heard teachings over the years which I now no longer believe in, but not to the extent you guys have. Just keep hanging on to Jesus, it's worth it. Adrian | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 12245 Registered: 12-2003 |
Doc, you have been such a great blessing to all of us over the years. You have consistently given us perceptive theological insights and explanations, and you have also really taken us seriously, understanding our struggle to become free of a very clever but insidious legacy. Thank you for being here and sharing yourself with us! Colleen | ||
| Indy4now Registered user Username: Indy4now Post Number: 997 Registered: 2-2008  |
I wonder how well Peter, James and John knew the Torah. Does anyone here on the forum know? Would they have known what Moses foretold about Christ in Deut. 18:15-19?
If Peter, James and John would have known about another prophet that Moses foretold, then their experience at the transfiguration would have made complete sense. In their minds, could anyone have been greater than Moses and Elijah? To hear God say this is His Son listen to Him would have been another confirmation that Jesus was who He said He was. Thoughts anyone? vivian | ||
| Doc Registered user Username: Doc Post Number: 654 Registered: 2-2003 |
Colleen, Thanks for your encouragement, I really needed it this morning. This forum has also been a great help to me, particularly during the time I was really confused about and trying to "figure out" Adventism. It is still a current and ongoing thing for me, and I hope things will eventually be resolved. I shall probably continue to "stick my oar in" on the odd occasion that I think it necessary :-) God bless you all, and keep on keeping on (as my mother used to say) Adrian P.S. I would love to come to one of your weekends sometime, but it is a VERY LONG WAY, and I have no finances at the moment. Well, if the Lord wills... In the meantime, I will have to be satisfied with listening to the teachings online. (Which are great, by the way) | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 12253 Registered: 12-2003 |
Vivian, really good point! I imagine that they did know the Torah...they were Jews, even though not scholars, and I think Jewish boys even then were expected to memorize Torah for their passage from boyhood into manhood. Whether or not bar mitzvahs were then as they are today, for sure Jewish boys knew Torah. So at some level I'm sure the transfiguration was powerful confirmation of Jesus' identity to them. At the same time, it seems likely that they missed a lot of meaning and detail that ultimately became clear to them after Pentecost when the Holy Spirit reminded them of all Jesus had taught them and continued to lead them into all truth (John 16:4-16). Colleen |
