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| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 7111 Registered: 9-2006  |
Yesterday I realized that I no longer mention the baptism in the Holy Spirit, and I realized too that I had given up. Too add to that failure on my part, when someone asked about the baptism in the Holy Spirit, I came unglued on them and lashed out at them for even mentioning it. Do I have a right to get tired and discouraged the same as any body else? Yes. I am just as human as anyone else, I put my pants on one leg at a time just like anyone else. What I do not have the right to do is too just give up and quit. A person said to me during a particular hard trial they were going through, “I have given up on God. “ The first thing I said was, “No, you don’t get to have a temper tantrum because thing don’t go your way.” And yet I am guilty of the same thing in a different setting. So, I need to pick myself up and keep going. If any part or all of the message is rejected, if I am accused of being wrong, well…I have one that is more powerful than they that I have to answer too. God has never told me that I will always be right, nor that what I have to say will be received, but if I love him, I will pick up and keep going and doing the best I can. I can't tell you how bad I feel for being such a jerk at times. I can't offer and excuse, because there just isn't one. I have held this for over 7 months and what good is the message if it is not shared? When I finished with it, I was afraid to share it, I had wanted so long to be able to do this, but after God helped me with it, I let fear take control, and not only that, I lashed out at the best friends I've ever had, and then I was mortified at myself for doing such a thing. The baptism in the Holy Spirit. First of all in this study we need to establish there is the Spirit of God, and then there is the spirit of man and we need to establish that from the very beginning so we go to the very beginning. In this study we need to differentiate between the spirit of man and the flesh of man, his body and between that and the Spirit of God. I will be using the King James version of the Bible, but you may use any version you wish to follow along, I use the King James version of the Bible simply for convenience as I started out my Christian life with that and it makes it easier to do research in the Bible. So we go to the very beginning of the Bible to establish the ground work for this study. In the very beginning of Genesis we have this text Genesis 1:2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters. God is Spirit, the word spirit derives from the Greek word pneuma which differentiates between the flesh and the spirit and so we come to this text Genesis 1:26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." God is spirit and man also has a spirit and God communicated with man by his Spirit Genesis 1:29 And God said, "See, I have given you every herb that yields seed which is on the face of all the earth, and every tree whose fruit yields seed; to you it shall be for food. Now lets advance to Genesis 2:7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being. Now man moves and has his being in the flesh and spirit, and God communicated freely with him as man gives names to the animals and such. As we advance on in the story of Genesis we begin to get the first hint of trouble as Adam and Eve have become disobedient to their maker who is pure spirit. They have been disobedient and attempt to cover themselves with leaves off the trees, or convenient ferns or whatever, but there is another problem beside their visible nakedness for as we move on we find this text Genesis 3:8 And they heard the sound of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God among the trees of the garden. Before their disobedience they are comfortable with Gods spiritual presence, now they are attempting to hide themselves from his spiritual presence and there’s more trouble for God says Genesis 3:9 Then the Lord God called to Adam and said to him, "Where are you?" Where are you Adam? Now we begin to experience real problems, whereas before Adam has no problem with Gods spiritual presence and God has no problem with Adams spiritual and bodily presence now he says “Where are you Adam?” Communications are beginning to break down here and God says “Where are you Adam?” and Adam gave his answer “I hid myself from your presence.” “I was afraid and I hid myself from your spirit presence because I was naked.” And man has been afraid of Gods Spirit presence ever since. Where before Adam was comfortable with Gods Spirit presence, now he is very uncomfortable with it and that results in a breakdown of communications between God and man. “Where are you Adam?” The second thing I want to establish is the love God still has for man and so we come to this bit of text Genesis 3:21 Also for Adam and his wife the Lord God made tunics of skin, and clothed them. Think about that, we go from Adam naming all the animals to God making tunics of skin for them to cover them. Wonder what the Angels thought about all this? Because of the sin of disobedience some of the innocent animals had to die to cover this man whom God has made, it could have been any animal, but lets just take for example it might have been a squirrel, what did Adam think as he sees the little squirrel that he had named fall from the tree and quiver and draw its last breathe, the skin begin to peel away from it’s body and the blood flow, no more to jumping joyfully from tree to tree or gather twigs for the nest of its young, its life cut off forever as Adam begins to realize that his sin of disobedience has affected more than just him. Wonder what the Angels thought? Did they say “Look how he loves the man that he has made?” and we have the first hint of a price to be paid, first the innocence of animals as a temporary measure which can cover the body of man, but not the spirit (pneuma) of man. And so the Lord drives him from the Garden of his presence, no longer will man walk and talk and be comfortable with the presence of the Spirit of God for a long time to come and so God begins to speak and to strive with men that he still loves through his selected prophets, selected men whose spirit seeks for his Spirit. Now lets jump to this text in the new testament as Jesus tells them the truth of it and the problem of it, John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. But after the time Adam and Eve sinned the communications line between God and man has been severed so Jesus now presents the problem and later he is going to bring the solution. Wonder what the Angels of God though about all this? Did they try to figure out what God was going to do, because now, instead of man walking and talking with Gods presence there has been almost total breakdown of communications between the Spirit of God and the spirit of man as man goes his own way away from the presence of the Spirit of God accept for a few select men who seek to know the Spirit of God, men who says “Where are you God? God says “Where are you man?” and a few select men says “Where are you God my maker?” As the great plan of God unfolds the years roll by with very little communications between the Spirit of God and the Spirit of man whose guilt has driven him from the presence of the Spirit of God as he seeks to hide himself from the presence of God. Enter the prophet Isaiah and we have the first hint of the future as God gives warning because Israel refuses God’s instruction, Isaiah 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue He will speak to this people, Paul quotes this passage in Corinthians I 14:21 In the law it is written: "With men of other tongues and other lips I will speak to this people; And yet, for all that, they will not hear Me," says the Lord. He uses this to explain that one use of the NT gift of tongues and interpretations is that of a sign of warning to unbelievers. (1 Cor. 14:21-25) Corinthians I 14:22 Therefore tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophesying is not for unbelievers but for those who believe. What is said in Isaiah and what the gift of tongues resemble, I have noticed through the personal use of the gift of tongues, is that many times there is a noticeable stammer to this peculiar thing that God uses to speak a warning to the unbeliever. Through out my school years I had a very close friend who stammered badly when he tried to speak, no doubt many of you have known someone with this condition or perhaps even experienced it yourself so you know that a person with this condition, in attempting word flow has a sort of forward shaking of the head a; a; a; as he tries to get the words to come forth. By the way I can’t tell you how deep my anger ran at anyone who made fun of my friend, this almost caused a few fist fights in my time when I thought all arguments were settled in that manner. But the point I want to make is that at times in my own experience the tongues very much resemble this condition and I think that is note worthy to the exactness of the truth of the Bible. It is exact and correct down to the small jot and tittle and what the prophet Isaiah says will come to pass, that is why we need to study the Bible carefully and word for word, text for text and context for context and when the Bible says baptism it doesn’t mean Spirit given, it means baptism. The word pickle would be more than apt, to submerge, plunge, dunk, soak. So in the prophet Isaiah we have the first hint of things to come as the great plan of God unfolds and the years roll by and we hear no more about stammering lips and another tongue until finally, enter Jesus, God in the flesh, the innocent lamb, who is Spirit and who is flesh and without the sin of disobedience and who communicates with God comfortably, no hiding himself, no attempts to cover himself with a leaf, the father in constant communication with him. Wonder what the Angels thought on the day that Jesus was born? Did they know? Peter I 1:12 To them it was revealed that, not to themselves, but to us they were ministering the things which now have been reported to you through those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven-things which angels desire to look into. So time rolled on from the beginning to the sinning, to the time Jesus came into the world and who has no problem with communications break down between himself (spirit/flesh) and God. Enter Jesus, the savior, Gods own son, we established early on that God still loves man that he has made and as his great plan unfolds his desire to once again walk and talk with man and man walk talk with him and be comfortable any old time that God chooses to stroll through the garden in the cool of the day, communications between mans spirit and God Spirit once again intact. It is my desire to help you see why I keep stressing the communications that started with God and man when he was first made and why it was necessary to establish this at the very beginning. After man sinned and clear up until the time of Jesus coming to earth that first comfortable exchange between man and God was broken, cut off by guilt and fear, severed, and from the time that God said “Where are you Adam?” Now before you stop reading and say “This has nothing to do with Holy Spirit baptism, just bear with me. Now I am going to change wording slightly and use the words Holy Ghost for convenience sake since my references to scripture is from the King James, Holy Spirit, Holy Ghost, both the same. The first mention of the baptism in the Holy Ghost in the New Testament is Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: Next we find this scripture as pertains to the Holy Ghost, Matthew 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. Matthew 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come. Pretty strong words so who is this Holy Ghost? And why do we need to be baptized in him, you see we do not get baptized in an it, but we get baptized in/with him. Next we find this scripture, Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Well, is this being baptized in the Holy Ghost? By being baptized in the name of the father son and Holy Ghost? Well, no, this is referring to the baptism in water for Jesus is telling them to do it, John just said back in the 12th Chapter that Jesus would do the baptizing in the Holy Ghost, isn’t that right? Next go into the book of Mark on this trail and we have Mark 1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost. Again John is speaking of Jesus and he differentiates between the water baptism and the Holy Ghost baptism that Jesus and only Jesus will do the baptizing in the Holy Ghost. Jesus himself participated in water baptism, but he had no need for Holy Ghost baptism himself because he is the one that will do the baptizing in the Holy Ghost as we will see. As we proceed on to the gospel of John we find this scripture, John 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. John 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. John 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.) The part of this scripture that I want to stress here is “out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. That is what it is like on being baptized in the Holy Spirit and being able to speak to God with tongues, out of the very center of your being flows communication with God through the ability of tongues, perfectly comfortable, perfectly at ease with God and that communication is rejuvenating as it rejuvenates the persons faith and inner man, his spirit. Now we proceed to the book of Acts as we follow Gods plan to restore communications with the man that he has made, we have followed the trail from the very beginning and in the book of acts Jesus has now went to the cross, paid the penalty for our sin by taking our sin upon himself, we saw in the book of Genesis how God made temporary coverings of skin for the man that he loved, now he has made the covering permanent for all that would come to him. It is generally agreed that the book of Acts was written by Luke. Luke tells the story of the early church within the frame work of geographical, political and historical details. Now the time has arrived when God would restore full and unfettered communication between God and man as it was in the Garden of his presence, the ability of man to communicate freely and without being bound in the fetters of fear. Acts 1:8 is key to the book of Acts. This verse predicts the out pouring of the Holy Spirit. Before proceeding I would like to take a moment to talk about the baptism of the Holy Spirit (or) Holy Ghost. It has been my experience that people receive a teaching on the baptism of the Holy Spirit as if it were an option that one could choose and is free to choose. Like as if he goes to a dealership to choose a car, he looks at the strip down version and then looks at the same car with the power steering option, perhaps cruise control and thinks to himself “That power steering cost another five hundred bucks and I can do without that, so I’ll just take the strip down version, I don’t need that power steering no how.” I mean after all God, what do I need tongues for? No thanks, just gimme the basic salvation and throw in water baptism and we got a deal, no sir, I don’t believe I need that tongues option you got there, I mean after all, what would my neighbors think of me sporting all them unnecessary option’s like that huh? You don’t see them sporting options. After I was baptized in the Holy Spirit I told my Methodist Dad about it and this was his statement “Well, you may need that sort of thing, but I don’t need it.” said with a sneer as if a piece of garbage had just blown into his door. I think it is a big mistake to think that God gives out salvation with options and the book of Acts pretty well convinces me of that in the key verse Acts 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. Acts 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. The last words that Jesus said is recorded right there as the heavens receive him out of their sight for the last time until he returns with his Angels in the clouds of glory. You shall receive power after the Holy Ghost has come upon you, not before, no option, but an imperative, necessary, crucial. So we proceed on into the book of acts Acts 1:2 Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen: Acts 1:3 To whom also he showed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God: Acts 1:4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. Acts 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. Through the Holy Ghost commands them to not depart from Jerusalem, But WAIT for the promise of the father to be baptized in the Holy Ghost. Friend, I wouldn’t cross the street without the baptism in the Holy Ghost, these folk were believers already and they were commanded to wait for the baptism, he didn’t say if anyone didn’t want it they could just go on and preach the gospel and no use hanging around Jerusalem. Where is the option? You say “Well I don’t got it so it must be an option!” Well friend lets go back to the communications break down that happened right off the bat in Genesis. We got a communications problem here. As the old warden says in Cool Hand Luke “What we got here is a failure to communicate.” Its just that God don’t throw us in the hole to force us to communicate with him. You say “Well, I don’t see it happening all over the place!” Probably the most prominent thing that sticks out in the book of Acts was the early Christians spiritual power. They fasted and prayed fervently Acts 2:44, 6:4, 13:3 their faith releasing the miracle working power of God Acts 3:16. I don’t see that going on all over the place neither do you? If we get the least bit hungry we make a quick run through Mc Donalds for a quarter pounder, fries and a large coke and we got a mouthful before we reach the end of the parking lot, no time for fervent prayer and fasting, gotta go, gotta go. These were not extraordinary people doing extraordinary things, these were ordinary people doing extraordinary things. These men were committed to the Gospel of Jesus Christ or as they say “They went whole hog.” Sold out for the Gospel and nothing else was more important to their lives. Now lets proceed on to Acts chapter two-Acts 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. Acts 2:2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. Acts 2:3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. And they were all, not some, all filled with the Holy Ghost and began to speak with other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance. Now you say “See there, as the Spirit gave them utterance!” Well don’t you worry friend, when you receive the baptism in the Holy Ghost he WILL give you utterance. This is the Baptism with the Holy Ghost. Period. So we started way back there with Adam losing out through fear of the presence of God, “I was afraid and I hid myself” and we have Gods presence in the cool of the day saying “Adam, where are you?” and now the long road has been traveled from the beginning with Adam to the cross, to the resurrection, to the ascension, to the out pouring of the Holy Spirit as predicted in Isaiah as God closes the communications gap cause by the sin of disobedience of Adam, Gods great plan of salvation, but not only that, restoration of communications between man that he has created. Once again through the power of the Holy Spirit, by speaking through the Holy Spirit we have the ability to speak with God comfortably and without fear of any sort entering into the equation, Corinthians I 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries. The mysteries spoken of here is not mysteries to God, God knows every word you are speaking because it is spirit to Spirit and it bypasses our fleshly thinking because the flesh is prone to think and say things outside the realm of the spirit, it is tainted and sinful flesh that must die and does not have the ability to communicate spirit to Spirit and Jesus said that God IS spirit and those that worship him must do so in spirit and that’s the truth. No other way but spirit to Spirit. Now you may say “But you are exchanging worship with communications.” That’s correct; to communicate with him is to worship him. So we have man speaking directly to God just as Adam communicated with God before the fall, in perfect comfort, perfect communion, without fear or remorse. This is the baptism in the Holy Spirit, the ability to communicate with God almighty once again, Gods great plan of full and complete redemption and his plan to restore his presence with mans presence and to walk and talk with him in the cool of the day. Oh how blessed it is to have his presence and to speak with him in this mysterious language, to lean upon his breast in perfect peace of utter communing. How gloriously divine it is, no wonder Paul said Corinthians I 14:18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all: Corinthians I 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. Yes, when I pray (talk to God) (worship God) in an unknown tongue my understanding is unfruitful, but the symphony of praying with the spirit and with the understanding at the same time is most fruitful, when we pray with the understanding then pray with the spirit in tongues it is a most glorious and soul satisfying thing, raising our faith to new heights and bringing answer to prayer. And you want to consider this as an option? Oh come on, are you that far from God? You may say “Well I got a problem with this tongues speaking.” Fine, go tell him you got a problem with him, no use telling it to him indirectly to other people and go talking behind his back, its his way, his plan, if you want to communicate with him spirit to Spirit, well guess whut? I have heard just about every excuse in the book that tries to work its way around and to justify not speaking with tongues to God. 1. We receive the Spirit at time of salvation. 2. Its no longer for us today. 3. I’ve been baptized in the Spirit, I just can’t speak with/in tongues. 4. Not every body spoke with tongues. 5. I prayed that if it is Gods will that I receive the tongues that I would and nothing happened. On and on it goes, but it doesn’t jive with what the Bible says about it and that one sided conversation you been having with God without the baptism in the Spirit is just what it is, one sided, the flesh trying to communicate with spirit but can’t adequately do the job because you are trying to communicate with the fleshly brain to an absolute Holy God whose thought are so high above ours that I would liken them to mole hill beside Mt. Everest. “Oh Gawwod, bless us in our need and may our sanctimonious piousosety be speeded into thy Holy bosom forever …mumble mumble awwwmen and oh me.” “Well brotha, he answered my prayer for a job, I prayed and I got one.” Well do tell, he knows your need to be fed and clothed, he know you have need of these things even before you ask, so its still one sided. He knows your every thought, that don’t mean he approves of them and it don’t mean that its communing with him either, its your brain doing the thinking and since he made it he knows what its thinking of course, but it still doesn’t negate the fact that his thoughts are higher than our thoughts, enter the baptism in the Holy Spirit and tongues, spirit to Spirit as he gives you utterance, but if you’ve never been baptized in the Spirit, then you have never had the utterance. Corinthians I 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. What is unfruitful here is your understanding, your spirit IS understanding because it is spirit to Spirit (or) your spirit to his Spirit for he is Spirit and those that worship him must worship IN spirit and the resultant prayer will bring perfect peace because your spirit has prayed unto God the perfect will of God, groanings which cannot be uttered by the fleshly brain. “Well brotha in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.” Well I am not talking about a church service here, I am talking about communications with God directly spirit to Spirit, if you only communicate with God through a church service, well, that’s not much communication at any rate, what, once a week? I remember when my wife and I were first married and I was stationed at Ft. Gordon Ga. She wrote me almost every day, back then we didn’t have the Internet or any such and long distance phone call’s were very expensive and my wife’s dad or my dad didn’t have a phone in the house anyway, it was strictly snail mail, but we wrote back and forth every day because we loved each other and wanted to communicate, and Gods wants us to communicate with him. Communicating with God through the gift of tongues he has made available to all believers which consummate the most intimate communications possible to us at this time, the tongues separating the spirit from the sinful flesh, spirit to spirit. I doubt anyone has ever heard tongues taught in this manner, I know I haven’t, I desired to give a teaching on the baptism in the Holy Spirit and this is the approach God seems to have given me, so it is just as strange to me as it would be to you. Now to say that tongues is only for this purpose, I would not be inclusive of all the reasons for them. The two fold function that I know of for the gift of tongues is for personal edification and for public exhortation. The tongues functions as a sign of the Holy Spirits presence, Mark 16:17 "And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; Paul referred to it as a sign, Corinthians I 14:22 Therefore tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophesying is not for unbelievers but for those who believe. And Peter noted its uniformity as a sign gift confirming the gentiles validity of their experience in the Holy Spirit comparing Acts 10:44-46 with 11:16,17 and 15:7-9. So speaking with tongues is a properly expected sign affirming the Holy Spirits presence which assures the believer of his living witness. One mistake people make is viewing tongues as a qualification for fullness of the Spirit, but it is one indication of that fullness. An indication that one has been baptized in with the Holy Spirit. Firstly speaking in tongues is a private affair, Jesus said to “Enter into your closet and pray then he would reward us openly Matthew 6:6, its not any different in praying with tongues than it is with the mind, it is practiced devotionally by the believer in his most intimate and intercessory moments of communication with God as he is moved upon by the Holy Spirit. Some Charismatic ministers believe that this devotional application may also be practiced by corporate agreement in a group gathering where no unbelievers are present (Ref. 1 Cor. 14-23) I myself question the practice unless it is a very small group where each one in the group is well known, but then I don’t know every thing so if they want to do it, let them as neither is the church to be bound by the fetters of legalism. 1. Speaking with tongues as the Holy Spirit gives utterance is the unique spiritual gift identified with the church of Jesus Christ, all the other gifts, miracles and spiritual manifestations were in evidence during Old Testament times, before the day of Pentecost. This new phenomenon came into evidence, uniquely identified with the church and ordained by God for the church, 1 Cor 12:28; 14:21. 2. Speaking with tongues is a specific fulfillment of prophecies by Isaiah and Jesus, compare Isaiah 28:11 with 1 Cor. 14:21, and Mark 16:17 with Acts 2:4; 10:46, 19:6 and 1 Cor. 14:5, 14-18, 39. 3. Speaking with tongues is a proof of the resurrection and glorification of Jesus Christ (John 16:7; Acts 2:26. 4. Speaking with tongues is an evidence of the baptism in or infilling of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:4; 10:45,46; 19:6. 5. Speaking with tongues is a spiritual gift for self edification (1 Cor. 14:4; Jude 20. 6. Speaking with tongues is a spiritual gift for spiritual edification of the church when accompanied by interpretation (1 Cor. 14:5). 7. Speaking with tongues is a spiritual gift for communication with God in private worship (1Cor, 14:5. 8. Speaking with tongues is a means by which the Holy Spirit intercedes through us in prayer (Romans 8:26; 1Cor. 14:14; Eph. 6:18. 9. Speaking with tongues is a spiritual mean for rejoicing (1 Cor. 14:15; Eph. 5:18,19. 10. Pauls application of Isaiah’s prophecy seems to indicate that speaking with tongues is also intended as a means of “rest” or “refreshing” (Is. 28:12; 1 Cor. 14:21). 11. Tongues follow as one confirmation of the Word of God when it is preached ( Mark 16:17, 20; 1Cor. 14:22. In the final analysis tongues communicate whether corporate tongues and interpretations, private devotion or communicated as a sign to the unbeliever. Communicated as a house full of people praying in tongues at the same time and the unbeliever will say “you are all mad” and be unaffected, Communicated through tongues and interpretations his thoughts will be exposed, brought to surface and he will fall to his knees and say “God is among you for a certainty” I have seen it in action and I know it to be so. Communicated through the most private and intimate devotion and It brings a sense of rest and refreshing like nothing else can, I have experienced it and I know it to be so. I have heard some say “Tongues causes division in the church”, well, its not the Holy Spirit God ordained tongues that causes the division in the church, you can rest assured that spirit of division was there before the subject came up, just waiting in the corner over there for some reason to get something started, that unbelieving and divided heart is already there in that person before the subject ever comes up and that spirit knows who they are. That spirit of division is always just over there in the corner taking a nap until the right words enter his ear and then he can go to work, hopping up on shoulders and whispering in ears of the cold and the unbelieving and he knows who they are before hand. I wonder what happens at heavens gate if it has a gate, those who refused the baptism in the Holy Spirit, being saved he can’t say he doesn’t know you, but he might have to pear closely “Who is this (looking closely into your eyes) Oh, yeah, let him in Peter, he was one of the herd that grazed on the back 40 their whole life, I could see him, but we never talked.” “But Lord don’t you remember all those prayers I prayed?” “That was a one sided conversation you were having, the left side of your brain communicating with the right hand side, you refused the baptism in my Spirit and it always was spirit to Spirit from the beginning”. “Didn’t you read what the Holy Spirit wrote concerning this? (opening a big Bible) says right here ‘God is Spirit and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth”. “Well…. Well…. But Lord I thought that meant something else!” “But son, Old River explained all that.” “Here he comes now.” Hey River, over here, quit bugging Paul with all those questions a minute and come over here and straighten this guy out.” You was with that group on FaF and he’s one of them.” “I’m sorry son, but I gotta go, I’m still in the business of saving people you know.” What I have talked about here is only one part of restoration, but it is a part, restoration is at the heart of the Christian Gospel. The restoration theme is found at the very beginning of the bible in Genesis, in the beginning man enjoyed the image of God, the intimacy of God and unbroken fellowship with God, but Gods restoration work began immediately. Man in eating of the tree of knowledge decided to take his life into his own hands and to live from his own limited resources and work things out himself for himself instead of living from the wisdom, righteousness and resources of God. God always restores four fold, when something is restored in scripture it is always increased. God ordained not only salvation but baptism in the Holy Spirit from which enables us to receive his direct resources, power from on high for service, to love which is the basis for all gifts and without it we become clanging symbols. Listen, without the Holy Spirit presence men try to work out their own restoration, books such as Jeremiah paint a grim picture of mans efforts at his own restoration. It results in corruption of leadership and exposes things like Adventism for what it is, having chosen to hear men rather than God, the people are soon hearing lies. Ezekial 34:1-10 exposes these kinds of leaders, using their offices and ministries for what they can get for themselves, as happened with brother Dale, “Dale, just take the job.” And if Dale would have just “Taken the job” he would have set God against him as an evil shepherd vowing to take the sheep back from him. The analogy of restoration follows the censuring statements “For thus says the Lord God: ‘indeed I will seek out my own sheep’ v 11, 12. And he is doing that as witnessed by this forum. God then and now wants his people to be directly related to him, responding to him and living his abundant life. Not vicariously through such as Ellen White and her succeeding minions, Gods seeks out his sheep such as brother Dale Ratzlaff and you who are on your way out. God is seeking you out to love him and to worship him in freedom. God has ordained that his people receive the baptism with/in his Holy Spirit just as his word says. It is real. It brings his presence in such a way that the recipient has never known before, restoring a hundred fold. I can only tell you about it, I have no resources within myself, my resource is in him. The removal of corruption in leadership, heresy and false teachings is an essential part of restoration even though it shakes what you thought was a solid foundation, it is necessary for your benefit, God is seeking out his sheep and he is finding them by the hundreds as pertaining to Adventism. But once the shaking is complete I urge you not to go somewhere and park, but to seek and ask God for all he has for you. Seeking to please God by external performance, lapsing into moral decay, corruption in leadership and worshiping the works of mens hands and a false prophet, leaders putting food in their bellies at the expense of the people, that is the things that God shakes, not what they term as shaking, it is them that will be shaken. River | ||
| Gcfrankie Registered user Username: Gcfrankie Post Number: 764 Registered: 1-2007 |
Thank-you River. I read this earlier today on your blog. In fact I have your blog in my favorites so if you do decide to close down your blog please let me know ahead of time as I would like to make a copy of it. Gail | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 7113 Registered: 9-2006 |
Sure Gail, I don't have plans to take the article down in the near future, in fact I have plans strip the introduction off and place it in an Evengelical Christian Magazine, I have been in contact with the owner of the mag and she has invited me to start writing for that Magazine again. I am working on an accompanying article titled "Former Adventist Helping Former Adventists" that I will finish if it please the Lord to help me with the article. I am not sure whether I will finish the current novel I am working on as I do not sense the Lords leading for it. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 12197 Registered: 12-2003  |
I want to say right up front that I believe the gift of a prayer language is one of the gifts of the Spirit God gives to people. 1 Corinthians 12:9-10 lists "tongues" right along with prophecy, distinguishing of spirits, miracles, and interpretation of tongues. And verse 11 says,
God gives the gifts, and He gives them as He wills. The passage in Isaiah 28:11 in context is part of Isaiah's prophecy that the northern kingdom was about to be taken captive by the Assyrians. Here's a larger portion with verse 11 highlighted:
The foreign tongue and strange or stammering lips, in context, is referring to the foreign speech of the Assyrians which would be what stubborn, unrepentant Israel would hear when God judges them in their impending captivity. They refused to listen to God through the Torah or through prophets such as Isaiah, so God will let them go; the Assyrians' strange speech will be God's own sign that He is judging them. He told them in advance through Isaiah. In 1 Corinthians 14:21, the context says this:
In this passage Paul is saying that tongues are a sign for unbelievers. The context is corporate worship, and there's really no indication that he is referring to prayer language. The precedent of Pentecost suggests that public tongues were languages that the speakers did not normally know—languages which proclaimed the gospel to unbelievers, languages which, when spoken by those who did not know them and interpreted by others who also did not "know" them, held unbelievers accountable. Paul is quoting the Isaiah passage to say that, just as the Assyrian language was a sign to unbelieving Israel that God had brought the judgment of exile on them, even so the gift of tongues--people speaking in languages they didn't naturally know--were a sign for unbelievers that a power greater than natural flesh was at work. It is an absolute fact that all who believe in the Lord Jesus will receive the Holy Spirit. Ephesians 1:13-14 states this fact; John 16:5-11 explains this fact. We receive the indwelling Spirit—the full power and presence of the Lord Jesus and the Father in the person of the Holy Spirit—when we receive the gift of salvation by grace through Jesus' blood. He gives gifts to every single believer, but there is no biblical support for the idea that everyone will speak in tongues. It is one of the gifts, and those who receive tongues will not have certain other gifts—and vice versa. We absolutely cannot do the work of God without the Holy Spirit. The disciples were told in Acts 1 to wait in Jerusalem until the Holy Spirit came upon them—and Pentecost ushered in the beginning of something completely new: the church. Since that day, everyone who truly places his trust in the Lord Jesus is filled with the Spirit and baptized into the body of Christ. Tongues were the external evidence of this baptism as the three people groups were brought into the church: Jews in Acts 2, Samaritans in Acts 8 and Gentiles in Acts 10. This gift was the way Peter could verify that the unclean Samaritans and gentiles were indeed receiving the same Spirit the Jews received—all without the law. It was a reversal of the curse of Babel when God confounded the languages and caused the people to scatter and form nations. The Holy Spirit returned "word" to believers by His Spirit, and people could communicate with one another once again. In Christ, even people foreign to each other could hear the gospel from one another without formally learning the language. But the idea that a private prayer language is what every believer should expect is not a biblical teaching, and those who believe it is are set up for disappointment and a sense of failure. Even in this we have to let God be God and accept what He gives us with thanksgiving and surrender our desires and fears to Him. Colleen | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 7114 Registered: 9-2006 |
As I said whether the message is accepted or rejected is not up to me. What I don't have the right to do is to 'Give up on God'. The idea that God is a respecter of persons is so preposterous that it is beyond even a shred of evidence in scripture. There is no excuse for a 'sense of failure' as God will never fail us, and we cannot fail in him. | ||
| Skeeter Registered user Username: Skeeter Post Number: 1220 Registered: 12-2007 |
I have always wondered if the gift of "tongues" was the ability of the speaker to SPEAK in a foreign language (like me being able to speak in French, when I have no knowledge of the language) OR if the actual "gift" is the ability given to the people HEARING in their own language when the one speaking does not "know" that language and is speaking in his own language ? (but then I guess it would be the gift of hearing and not the gift of tongues) Also,WHY if it is an actual (human) language and they were speaking directly to the people of another culture in THEIR native tongue why was there need of an "interpreter" ? The Bible clearly states that whenever "tongues" is used that there MUST be an interpreter or it is of no value... OR.... does the Holy Spirit serve as the "interpreter" and thus make it possible for those hearing the word to hear and understand as if it were being spoken in their native tongue ? So,, which is it ?? Is the speaker SPEAKING in a foreign language, or is he speaking his own language and the ones hearing,, hearing it in their own language ? Or is it what I have heard described as a "heavenly language" which is NOT any earthly language ? does an actual PERSON have to "interpret" (which would amount to that person being knowledgable in both languages and like what we would in our day call an interpreter) OR is the Holy Spirit the interpreter ? Or am I wrong on all of this ? Can ya tell I am confused ? LOL Francie | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 12199 Registered: 12-2003 |
Francie, the story of Pentecost in Acts 2 describes those receiving the indwelling Holy Spirit for the first time (because Jesus ascended to the Father and poured out what He had promised), and it says the people in Jerusalem thought they were drunk; they couldn't have been speaking Hebrew or Aramaic or Greek. It further says everyone heard the gospel in their own language--and there's no indication there was an interpreter. The passage where it says if someone speaks in tongues, someone must interpret is in 1 Cor. 14:27-28, and the setting is in a local church fellowship. The issue is that Paul was exhorting the Corinthians to have orderly, non-chaotic worship services. He makes is clear that in the fellowship of the local house church, there was not to be more than two or three people who speak in tongues at any service—and then only if there is an interpreter. If not, the person is only to speak "to himself and to God." It seems that both recognized languages and prayer language is being referred to in 1 Cor 14 where Paul discusses tongues. He never specifically identifies them separately, but he refers to "tongues" collectively. The "love chapter", 1 Corinthians 13, occurs between 12 and 14, the spiritual gifts chapters, quite intentionally. Paul is explaining that the gifts are to be subject to love, not the other way around. Moreover, Paul states that the gifts of tongues and prophecy and knowledge will cease, because now everything we know and perceive is "in part". But Love will never fail; even faith and hope will be fulfilled, but love is the greatest of all. At the beginning of this chapter, Paul begins by saying, "If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love…" First, Paul is speaking in hyperbole, using the most extreme gift imaginable: that he could speak in all the various languages of men and of angels as well. Second, however, the context of all three chapters plus the book of Acts does suggest that the gift of tongues certainly included human languages. The gift of interpretation is a gift all its own, and in 1 Cor. 10 it is listed as one of the spiritual gifts:
The gift of tongues, regardless of "kind" (as per verse 10), is given, as are the gifts of wisdom, knowledge, faith, healing, etc. to some of the body. The Spirit distributes "to each one individually just as He wills." Same for interpretation... And for sure, God doesn't need to have interpreters when someone is given the gift of a language to speak the gospel to someone else from a different culture. God can cause the one speaking in a foreign tongue to say what must be said, the hearer will hear. God is sovereign even over our use of the gifts. He decides when and where and how...it's all part of His will. Colleen | ||
| Honestwitness Registered user Username: Honestwitness Post Number: 1103 Registered: 7-2005  |
When the gift of tongues was first given, there were about 120 people present in an upper room. They were all believers. They were not preaching to anyone. They were speaking to God. Someone must have overheard and came to see what all the noise and wind were about. What they saw was 120 people praising God in various languages. In all, 16 different languages were mentioned. Now think about this. The New Testament was written in Greek. If you look this up in any encyclopedia, you find that in New Testament times there was one common language spoken by most people - Koine Greek. However, there were many other languages also spoken in that region. Greek was their second language. It was just like in Europe today. Spaniards speak Spanish as their primary language, but English as their secondary language. Same with Italians, Germans, the French, etc. So, when Peter got up to preach to the people, of whom several thousand got saved that day, which language was he speaking that they could all understand? It was Koine Greek. When Peter and John wrote their letters to the other Christians, which of those 16 languages did they use? None. They used Koine Greek. The New Testament documents were all written in Greek and were circulated among the various groups in that region. They all understood the letters, because they were written in Greek. So, going back to Pentecost and the 16 languages, here are some questions to ponder. 1. Did all of the 120 speakers speak all 16 languages? 2. Did only one of the 120 speak 16 languages? 3. Did any of the 120 speak nothing at all? 4. Did any of the 120 speak only Greek? 5. Did any of the speakers understand every language they spoke, if they spoke more than one? 6. Did any of the speakers understand every language the other 120 were speaking? 7. Did any of the speakers understand none of the 16 other languages being spoken? 8. To whom were the 120 speakers speaking? 9. What were the speakers saying? 10. What were the speakers hearing from the other speakers? 11. Did the 120 speakers stay in the upper room or did they go somewhere else while they were speaking in tongues? 12. How many people would have fit into the typical upper room in Jerusalem in 33AD? 13. When Peter got up to speak to the crowd, were the other 119 still speaking in tongues, or did they quiet down to listen to Peter? I could go on in this vein, but I think you get my drift. The scene in Acts 2 is full of mystery, but if you start thinking like Sherlock Holmes, you start noticing things you never thought of before. I would like to some day get a bunch of multi-language people together and try to re-enact the events of that day. I bet there is a lot to the phenomenon that most of us have never even considered. I would even like to get some stick figures or toy people and arrange them in a large flat box with labels on them to better understand just what Scripture is telling us really happened that day. Oh, well...I do go on, don't I? | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 7115 Registered: 9-2006 |
I am so very sad and troubled in my spirit tonight. Not because there are others who do not agree with my views on the baptism in the Holy Spirit,not because every one does not accept what I initially wrote in this post. As I prayed for the answers 'Why tongues?' and as God led me over the Bible that I have made so many trips through, I said, "Lord, no one is going to believe this, I'm not sure I can believe it myself, it scares me." So it is just as I thought, "No one will believe it." I've tried to come up with something better, yet I still feel deeply within my own spirit, that I am at least partially right, that tongues are a part of Gods complete restoration plan to restore his people unto himself, so that he can once again talk with us in the cool of the day. I keep saying "The cool of the day." But this term means so much more that the words it describes, it means peace between us and God. If one reads "A Portrait of How the Azusa Doctrine of Spirit Baptism Shaped American Pentecostalism By Harold D. Hunter We soon see that there has been much disagreement on tongues being the initial evidence of the Baptism in the Holy Spirit from way back when. So the difference in views is not what bothers me and saddens me deeply in my spirit here tonight, nor is it the diffrence in views has has discouraged me so much as I have attempted to help those who are former Adventists. What so saddens and troubles me is the spiritual resistance to this wonderful thing called 'Speaking in tongues'. I speaking with one of the formers, and no I will not mention her name, told me she was one of my strongest opponents, until she was Baptized in the Holy Spirit, her evidence was tongues, she resisted until the Lord Baptized her, and she said, 'Oh River, what was I resisting?" It spread from there to her family and from person to person whom I have talked to about their experience with praying in their 'Special prayer language. No one seems to know whether it is the initial evidence of the baptism in the Holy Spirit, but they will, without fail, tell you it's wonderful. That speaking in tongues is their evidence that something has happened to them in addition to their salvation. If I had to take a court case to try the evidence, I would be overwhelmed by the shear number of witnesses that tongues were a part of their baptism in the Holy Spirit. Whether they think tongues are the initial evidence or not, they each have spoken in tongues, and every single person I have spoken with in all my, now, 39 years have witnessed to speaking in tongues in conjunction with being Baptized in the Holy Spirit. I don't think all has, but I believe with all my being they can. But his is not what saddens me, it is the resistance that I sense on this forum, but it doesn't start here, nor does it end here, it is the resistance of so many numbers of Christians, complete denominations who will resist it tooth and nail. Hey..at least I haven't been kicked off the forum..at least so far, although I feel like I am near to getting my walking papers.  If it would have been most of the denominations, I would have been tared, feathered and ridden out on a rail by now, I suspect that it is because the Lord says, "You go when I say go." maybe he wants to use me in spite of my explosive nature. Or maybe I never should have been here in the first place. You see, yall don't have a corner on uncertainty, that's where I live every minute of the day mostly, until I come under the anointing of the Holy Ghost, and then I'm a fire brand, a red hot living coal. Its those infernal dry places someone mentioned that gets to me, yet I know I cannot live on the mountain top, I do my best study in the valleys, it there I begin seeking. I am truly saddened that there is so much resistance to that which is available to Christians everywhere, and the church suffers the effects of rampant divorce, broken homes and broken children, slothfulness, and sleepiness, abortions and for what? Like what I have seen here on this thread, you go round and round the Mulberry bush trying to explain away what cannot be explained away. Accuse us who have been baptized in the Holy Ghost as "Haves and have notters, babblers" and so fourth. I keep asking God why? Why the resistance? Why the raising of the hackles? Its like trying to pet a mean dog. Well...I ain't in no cave hollering God, I'm the only one left, we are over 95 million strong and counting. Just because things look bad ain't no sign I'm going to run under the porch with my tail between my legs, I may get discouraged, but I'm a survivor and that's because God saw to it that I didn't get a silver spoon stuck in my mouth. Three years ago it was that God began to give me ability to write..and three books later I am done with the fiction and I am going up against the walls of hell that interferes with Gods people. You know what a 'Ringer is? In sports a ringer is someone playing for a regular legal player but is not in fact a member of the team. Usually a superior player or a professional playing in amateur leagues, they are illegal and teams using them must forfeit the game if caught. A ringer is also someone who is a double for another person, an exact duplicate, coming originally from a horse substituted for another of similar appearance in order to defraud the bookies (called a ringer). In most every move of the Holy Spirit the devil tries to bring in a ringer, when Paul preached in the streets, the devil brought in a ringer in the form of a young woman. She tolled her bell's until Paul got aggravated with the whole scene and turned and tossed the devil out on his ear. Ellen White was a ringer, a pawn of Satan to mimic and make mockery of the word of God. she was an unwilling pawn in his games, but she is not the only one who was ever a ringer, Satan even uses other Christians as ringers, unwilling pawns to cheat God people out of what is rightfully theirs. Mark 13:22 uses the words, 'To seduce' even the elect if possible. You say, "Well, we are the elect select and we can't be seduced." Huh? Bullbutter! How do you answer to the confusion going on in the churches? The stick churches is not the church, but is the visible evidence of its existence, and from what I see we've all been seduced! I'm not saddened because nobody agrees, I'm saddened because of the resistance to the Holy Spirit, the promised power. The church has not taken hold of the promise, they settle for less than, perhaps unknowingly, perhaps unwillingly, but less than is less than. I had hopes for formers, I thought, "They have a fresh start, a clean slate, they are open to receive. Boy was I ever wrong. But I'm going to keep asking, why God? Why keep asking? because it's just built in me to ask. I'm just naturally a fixer, if my bike breaks, I fix it, but if it gives me too much trouble I'll jack it up and run a new one under it. I fear for Gods people, I fear he will have to allow extreme persecution and hardship to fix us, and this too saddens me. River | ||
| Honestwitness Registered user Username: Honestwitness Post Number: 1104 Registered: 7-2005 |
River, Adventists are taught that the purpose of tongues was to spread the gospel. My purpose in the above post is to show that it was not necessary to use tongues to spread the gospel, because it was spread quite effectively using Koine Greek. By examining our most basic assumptions about tongues - in light of scripture - we gain new perspectives. | ||
| 1john2v27nlt Registered user Username: 1john2v27nlt Post Number: 260 Registered: 5-2009 |
I have said that sdas are afraid of the Holy Spirit. I think they are so afraid of evil spirits they reject the Holy Spirit too, for fear - what if they accept a wrong spirit?? what if they are deluded thinking they have the Holy Spirit but it's a counterfeit?? so they don't go there at all. They stay all in their heads; they have no heart. I say this because I was that way. I don't think I am unique. In general sdas think all who speak in tongues will end up in an out of control, 'holy roller' chaotic, embarrassing scene. Now that I have spent some years with non-sdas in a non-denominational bible study group I think that others are afraid too. They don't want to be 'like those people.' or they are afraid of being 'out of control.' I have one methodist friend who finally told me she received the Holy Spirit by the laying on of hands, when she did not want to be led into anything wrong. But since that evening she has a prayer language. She finally prayed in her prayer language one time when we were together. I know of others who have this, but who never use it publicly. I think it is rare in christian circles. There are books now becoming popular which are addressing this LACK of the Holy Spirit in the christian church. "The Forgotten God" by Frances Chan is one of them. Many are reading a previous book by the same author "Crazy Love". Now that I am reading the bible all the way through it is impossible to miss the importance of the Holy Spirit. The NT - is about Jesus, & about the Holy Spirit now that Jesus returned to heaven & sent the Spirit. Just yesterday I prayed for the Holy Spirit in response to this scripture which I just read: Luke 11:13ESV - If you then who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will the heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him! This is in the context of Jesus teaching the disciples how to pray, the whole Luke 11 chapter. We are meant to ask for the Holy Spirit. J9 | ||
| 1john2v27nlt Registered user Username: 1john2v27nlt Post Number: 261 Registered: 5-2009 |
River, I confess that I had only skimmed your post on this thread - it was SO LONG. I resisted because I thought you were tying a bunch of scriptures together in a kinda proof-texting way. I am very resistant to that as a former sda. I KNOW you better than that; it is just the former sda mindset. Part of what I hear you railing at is that we need to become 'teachable.' We need to be open & willing to consider. We need to go back to God's Word & ask, God is this YOUR TRUTH according to Your Word? I'm not gonna take this Lord just because River says it. He can say that wall is purple - but that doesn't make it so. But Lord I will consider what he is showing me, leading me to. I will ask You God to confirm it to me. I won't take everything anyone here says as 'gospel'. I will go back to God & His Word, & the Holy Spirit who is MY Teacher. Sometimes I think former sdas go from ellen telling us what to think & believe to some other source telling us what to think & believe; rather than going to God & His Word, by His Spirit. On this forum I hear certain phrases repeated - the language of the 'formers'. I wonder if we traded 'being right' in one context for 'being right' in another context. Anyway, River, I am considering what you have written. J9 | ||
| Honestwitness Registered user Username: Honestwitness Post Number: 1105 Registered: 7-2005 |
J9, thank you for sharing your thoughts and your openness. I agree with you that we are meant to ask for the Holy Spirit baptism. I did just that in 1972 and have been enjoying the restful refreshing River describes so well above. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 12203 Registered: 12-2003 |
J9--I applaud you. We have to go to Scripture for our bottom line, and the Holy Spirit is faithful to teach us truth. River, you said:
This statement may be your experience, but it is not what the Bible states. Scripture is clear that tongues, along with every other gift, is distributed "to each one individually just as He wills" (1 Cor 12:11). First of all, the Bible does not teach there is an experience where we get more of God than when we are born again. God, the eternal Creator, indwells us when we place our faith in the Lord Jesus. Every single believer receives at least one spiritual gift when he is born from above into the body of Christ. Romans 12:3-13:
1 Cor 12:4-13:
Scripture never describes a universal post-born-again experience characterized as the baptism of the Holy Spirit where people receive tongues. To be sure, Scripture gives examples of people who have been set apart for various forms of callings and service, and for sure the Holy Spirit fills us with His power and presence in profound ways for the purpose of being Jesus' witnesses. We cannot state, however, that all born-again believers ought to be able to receive the gift of tongues. First, Scripture is clear that some receive tongues and some do not, exactly as is the case with gifts of prophecy, healing, teaching, giving, leadership, and so on. God decides. Those who receive His power and infilling but do not receive tongues do not experience less of His presence, less intensity of feeling, or less ability to worship and commune with Him. He is in us, and His Spirit intercedes with our spirits because we don't even know how to pray (Romans 8:26-27). This text does not imply or presuppose that tongues are involved. It is an objective promise that ALL believers can know is their gift from God as His adopted child. And whether or not a person speaks in tongues does not make one's experience with the Holy Spirit more or less intense and intimate. The "thing" that makes a difference is our own willingness to surrender. We receive ALL of God when He indwells us; He doesn't just give a part of His power and promise. But as He reveals our own lives to us, He gives us opportunities to surrender more and more of ourselves to Him. Every time we surrender our desires or hopes for certain outcomes or rights or emotions to Him, willing to be taught and changed and to be made new in that area, we experience more of His power and peace and intimacy. It's not an external seeking for more that gives us more. It's our willingness to surrender that opens us for more of His power in our lives. Some of us will never speak in tongues, even though they have asked for the gift. Some will. But God does not withhold Himself or His depth and blessing from anyone who asks. It's just that our asking must involve surrender of ourselves to Him and submission to what His word says. Experience can never be the measure of whether or not something is "true". I will never have the same experience with God any one of you has, and you will never have mine. He relates to us individually. But He gives all of us everything He promises as we trust Him. He has never promised everyone will speak in tongues, but He has promises that all of Jesus' power is ours in Christ. My experiences with the Holy Spirit are deep and transforming, overcoming me with tears and joy and peace and security. Yet I have not spoken in tongues, and He has been quite clear with me that, at least at this point in my life and work, He is asking me to trust Him and be content with what He has given me. I have no frustrated longing—I experience the tangible presence of the Lord Jesus through His Spirit. Scripture must be our absolute foundation. God will give many people the gift of tongues—but that gift cannot replace submission to Scripture's truth, nor will it ever be extra revelation of truth. It is always for the building up of the body, as is every other gift—whether that "body part" is yourself or those to whom you minister. We must be open to the Father, and He shows us, faithfully, what part of ourselves He is asking us to submit to Him at any given time. He knows what we need, and He knows how to give us Himself both to equip us for the work He prepared in advance for us to do (Eph 2:10) and to build us up
Colleen | ||
| Skeeter Registered user Username: Skeeter Post Number: 1225 Registered: 12-2007 |
Thank you River for caring about us so much that it is your heartfelt desire for us to be able to receive from God the gift that has been given to you. I do not pretend to understand that gift, and maybe no one can truly understand it until/unless they have experienced it personally for themselves. I do understand that when we have a wonderful experience we long in our hearts to have those we love be able to share in that experience also. Thank you for loving us so much that you want us to share in something that means so much to you I see your desire for us much the same as the desire of so many of us "formers" wanting our still SDA friends and family members to experience the freedom in Christ that we have found since leaving Adventism. Our hearts ache for them to have that gift of freedom to worship God fully without the guilt and chains of Adventism. Colleen, thank you also for all your study of scripture and confirming to us that as children of God we have ALL received "gifts" and we need not all receive the SAME gifts in order to be blessed and acceptable to God. We are His children and He gives each of us the "gifts" He knows we are in need of. Because we do not each experience all gifts does not mean we are any less blessed Thank you Lord Jesus for your loving care and for giving to each of us according to Your will, and according to our need. Francie | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 7116 Registered: 9-2006 |
I had a whole bunch of stuff written that I thought was very important, but I hit the wrong button and lost the whole thing, so I'm going to take that from the Lord as a message to remain silent, so I guess you can stick a fork in me. River | ||
| Skeeter Registered user Username: Skeeter Post Number: 1228 Registered: 12-2007 |
will it come back up if you hit the refresh button or the back button ? | ||
| Gcfrankie Registered user Username: Gcfrankie Post Number: 768 Registered: 1-2007 |
We love you River and you certainly do not need to stick a fork in yourself. We know where your big heart lies. Gail | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 7117 Registered: 9-2006 |
Someone mentioned the book ‘The Forgotten God’ on another thread, since what we call ‘Baptism in the Holy Spirit’ again came into widespread use with the advent of the Azusa Street revival that lasted almost six years around 1900, I suspect that we have had to learn new territory, not new extra revelation, it is taught in the Bible. Cessation-ism just does not work, as the doctrine of justification by faith was likewise hidden for 1,000 years. Yet it is no less taught in Scripture, clearly seen to those who read those precious pages. Rejecting the gifts is actually a threat to the authority of Scripture, for the denial renders whole sections of Scripture inapplicable to our day. How can God change so much, that his supernatural care of the church be withdrawn? Likewise, the authority of Scripture argument used by cessationists is a straw man, because almost nobody on the charismatic side of the fence would see contemporary prophecy as anything near authoritative. All prophecy, says Paul should be tested to see if it is in accord with Scripture. If not, throw the words out because prophecy is subservient to Scripture. Suddenly Cessationism has no leg to stand on! There is much argument over exactly how this must be applied to our every day lives, much argument over some meanings of scripture as it applies to us today. For those who know what scripture says, but don’t like what they see out in John Q Public, it presents a problem. Paul apparently found the Corinthians in need of teaching, the Corinthians misunderstood the manner is which the Holy Spirit works through individuals and they abused the Spiritual gifts, apparently regarding them as ends in themselves. In particular they misunderstood the proper public use of the gift of tongues and it often confused the order in their meetings. They also misunderstood the power of the Spirit, viewing gift-operations as a compulsive possession negating the will (14:32) and the same thing goes on today. Paul introduces three guiding principles, the principle of conscious control, unlike paganism, the power of the Spirit don’t drive people to wild, compulsive acts, yet with horror, we see it going on today, secondly the principle that Christ is glorified and thirdly, creedal faith. The main work of the Holy Spirit is to bring people under the Lordship of Jesus. When people think Holy Spirit baptism they automatically connect it with tongues, and tongues is not a do all and be all. So we have all these deterrents, wild compulsives acts and so on, but however people act or think does not negate the word of God, does not reduce it’s power in any shape or form. So whether one likes it or not, we have what is described in the 12th chapter of Corinthians in our presence today, it is just as real as it was then. I don’t have an agenda for everyone on the forum to speak with tongues, what I do desire is that we maintain a teachable spirit so that we can learn how to use what he DOES give us in spite of what is going on in the world today, but in all instances of learning, the Bible has to be our foundation, without that foundation our moorings are cut loose and we end up floundering around. I don’t expect anybody to believe what I believe, because I am still learning too. I can only tell you what I suspect, at the same time, I am trying to be subservient to the word, as it is my foundation for judging all things. In spite of all the years of trying to allow the Lord to use me in these gifts of the spirit, I feel like a baby just learning to say “Ga Ga.” God never leaves me in a comfortable spot, just about time I get comfortable I suddenly find myself in new territory, so I suspect if yall are looking for a comfortable spot where you got your theology all down pat, boxed up, and tied with a neat ribbon, for those who do try to maintain a teachable spirit, you are in for some surprises, but one thing about it, I have found the trip with God an exciting trip and the word is new and fresh every day. River | ||
| Alison1 Registered user Username: Alison1 Post Number: 34 Registered: 10-2010 |
Could someone explain to me exactly what a prayer language is? I once went to a Pentecostal church and when people were praying they were praying in some type made-up language and then someone would attempt to translate it. I found it to be very spooky and I never went back. |
