| Author | Message | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1046 Registered: 5-2007 |
I understand that these passages are unsettled among Christians. What might these mean? 1 Cor 5: 5 I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus," J: I do not understand this. 1 John 5:16-17 (New International Version, ©2010) 16 If you see any brother or sister commit a sin that does not lead to death, you should pray and God will give them life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that you should pray about that. 17 All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death. J: How is this applied? In what sense? What kind of sin? Then there is this , another prays for a sinner so that God will give that person life. How is that? 1 John 3:4-6 (New International Version, ©2010) 4 Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. 5 But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. 6 No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him. J: Is this a fair (literal) statement? How do we have peace in our flaws and failings with this teaching in view? 1 John 3:19-20 (New International Version, ©2010) 19 This is how we know that we belong to the truth and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence: 20 If our hearts condemn us, we know that God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything. J: This seems to be the relief. ??? What is the transaction happening here? 1 John 3:24 (New International Version, ©2010) 24 The one who keeps God’s commands lives in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us. There is that legal word again. Defining "God's commands" in this context? These passages are part of the big picture. While not seeking license, and also desiring a renewed Spirit that comes from God. We, (I), live with continued realities, flaws, defects, and sins. For example, I pray in the morning that God will help me control my mouth, attitude and temper. I get to work, things are hectic, others cause or create problems I have to make right, endless expectations and demands and finally, I lose my temper and fuss, offend, say the wrong thing or whatever. Then I feel bad that it got away from me. Or , any of a number of emotional black holes we all experince that lead to self excuses or indulgence. Life comes at you, we deal with vacuums and sin is always right there in one form or another. So does this mean we never knew Christ? Jim | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 6977 Registered: 9-2006  |
Jim, if we didn't know Christ we wouldn't be so aware of realities, flaws, defects, and sins. But since God has made us alive to him, we are. As for the scriptures, do you read the context? If I or anyone else told you what these scripture mean, it wouldn't do any good. If there is a scripture you just cannot understand then tell the Lord so, say,"Lord I just don't get this one." then go on to understand the ones you can. You know what Jim? It sounds to me more like you have a crow to pick with God, that you have something against him. Is there something that has happened in your life to make you feel that God has been unjust with you or a love one, or that God hasn't been 'Fair' in some way? I don't mean this to be cruel Jim, but sometimes the root of peoples problems amount to something that is not on the surface. but is buried deep in our past. River | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 1567 Registered: 7-2007 |
Jim; that "sin that leads to death" is the sin of rejecting Jesus. Christians cannot do that because they've already accepted Jesus as their Savior (and their sins - past, present and future - are already forgiven.  ) (Message edited by Asurprise on December 11, 2010) | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1047 Registered: 5-2007 |
River, Mainly I live between the tensions of interpreting events in my life as a punishment from God or just plain circumstances. But for the Christian. Is anything merely circumstance? Making peace with God in my mind requires that I obey His commands. Problem is, on one hand, I am not certain as to what those commands actually are. The logic side of me struggles with the Grace aspect of God. I never know where I stand, to what extent my liberty (freedom from the law system of the OC) extends or how much of my ongoing daily sins are covered. Then the fact that even if I know teh commands , does not mean I can perform to satisfaction. That is Grace too. Sabbaths are still gauntlets to get through. I never know where my security is because I am stubling in the darkness of confusion. Faith grows from conviction. I have no conviction because it (temporary law) does not make sense more often that not. I understand the idea of a Spirit led Christian does not need a law. But then that is blown away by "who keep the commandments of God". My entire experience is on again , off again as I turn each page of the Bible. Free. No, not free. Law has ended, but law defines sin, we are not to sin, and on and on it goes. So much is abstract and virtually any teaching can be convoluted to conclude just about any position. People who are at a state of peace in their mind amaze me, I have days like that. But these peace islands are like thin coats of paint subject to being overwritten by the next turn of the page. The bible warns abouot believiing a lie. Yet, there is no reliable system to prevent it. We cannot all be right. EGW said , a supposed hope and nothing more will prove our ruin. That comment haunts me. I read that many were destroyed because of unbelief. Yet , we are expected to believe in something specific, to obey God's commands. Simply put, I don't know how to obey because I am without abiding conviction that brings stable peace. This is why I am digging, hoping to somehow finally get it. To have the confidence to go through a day without being on a guilt trip waiting for another disastor. Religon is like a patch quilt. Lots of pieces you hope will cover you safely. I ask what I need to know. It is simple as that. If my questions do not merit an answer, so be it. Jim | ||
| Jdpascal Registered user Username: Jdpascal Post Number: 258 Registered: 10-2003 |
Hi Jim. Religion is for those who fear Hell. Jesus Christ is the answer for those who have been through it. After reading this last post, your previous posts that I have read, now make more sense. I know my own hell and the SDA hell even though I can't fathom the personal hell that anyone else endures. The rest you long for, in Jesus name, is there for the taking if you will only abandon 'Religion'. Religion is a man made system to honor our own efforts. Rest in Jesus honors His efforts and acknowledges our complete inability to 'perform to satisfaction'. The SDA system of religion does a very thorough job of binding us to the idea that we must perform to be accepted by God even after we say we believe. It is not that we must perform the contents of some ever growing list, it is that we will be molded into what God wants for us and keeping that list ever before our mind's eye keeps us from nestling into the arms of Jesus who gives motion to the desires of his heart for us. There is only one commandment for mankind since Jesus went to the cross, died, was buried and rose again on the third day. That command is to BELIEVE ON Jesus, THE ONE WHO GOD SENT. Can you, each day, say with the rest of us... Lord I believe, help my unbelief!! That is what I have to say each day to get through, and past, my continued failures. I'm sure that it has been suggested that you read and re-read the book of Galatians. I would offer this link, to the website of the church we attend, to listen to the pastors sermons on the Gospel of John. (I'll post it in the members section for privacy) | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 6980 Registered: 9-2006 |
I never meant to suggest that your question don't merit an answer Jim. Perhaps religion is like a patchwork quilt. I can tell you how it is that I find peace and it's certainly not in a patchwork of religion. My peace and contentment in this world is based on the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. It is not a supposed hope, it is a solid foundation. That foundation does not depend on bits of scripture, bits of scripture depends on that. I mean people can spew theology all day long at me, but without the death and resurrection, it won't mean squat. Lets say I work on an oil platform out in the gulf and I can see New Orleans from the platform, I see details of buildings off there, cars running up and down the causeway, but I cannot leave my platform, it's water water all around. Now you are trying to find peace in the details, you have to have the platform, you try to reach the details for safety, but the platform is your safety, it legs go down deep into the ground, it is planted solid, no storm can knock it over. The platform is your safety. One former put it right when he said, "On Christ the solid rock I stand, all other ground is sinking sand." Nothing in the Bible works without Jesus Christ in the very center of it. There is the story of a Sea captain who lived a very rough and tumble life at Sea, living with rough cut men, until age finally took its toll, a minster friend came to see his on his death bed, and he asked this question, "Jonathan, does the anchor still hold, and he replied with, "Ay preacher, the anchor she holds." He was talking about the Anchor we have in Jesus of course. You keep worrying about all these details and bits of scripture when the anchor, the platform, the rock, is Christ Jesus. What guilt? Romans 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? Romans 8:32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? Romans 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. Romans 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Romans 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? Friend, just get a bull dog death hold grip on that cross, stay on that platform and don't let anything move you. River | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 1569 Registered: 7-2007 |
Jim; some of what you've written has actually indirectly helped me. It's helped because of I've found that NO PART of our salvation is dependent upon our performance/obedience. (I think a lot of us who've been in cults - Roman Catholic, Seventh-day Adventist, J.Witness, etc. still struggle to various degrees with that "baggage.") Jim; if ALL OUR SINS - past, present and FUTURE are already forgiven (as the Bible says in 1st John 2:12), then IF you accept Jesus as your Savior; then NOTHING you do, NO SIN - can keep you from being saved. And no, it's not "greasy grace." Those who think Christians believe this way, do not understand grace! If a person who believes on Jesus, receives eternal life (1st John 5:13), then how can it be temporary? And if ANY of it, including the MAINTAINING of it, is up to you, then it's not ETERNAL! | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 1570 Registered: 7-2007 |
BTW; why are you listening to a false prophet and letting her haunt you? You know that she spoke lies, so you know that the devil was behind her. Are you still reading her writings and going to the SDA church? She said that Jesus WAITED until 1844 to go into the Most Holy Place, when the Bible says that He went ALREADY! "This hope we have as and anchor of the soul, both sure and steadfast, AND WHICH ENTERS THE PRESENCE BEHIND THE VEIL, WHERE THE FORERUNNER HAS ENTERED FOR US, EVEN JESUS..." Also Hebrews 1:3 and Hebrews 10:12 which says Jesus SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD. What could be the Most Holy Place, except where God is?? And also Hebrews 9:12 & 25. And there are lots of other places where she contradicted the Bible! | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 1572 Registered: 7-2007 |
Oops, I forgot to put down the reference for the verse I put down in bold letters. It's Hebrews 6:19,20. Oh and by the way, whenever it says "within the veil" in the King James Version, it's talking about the Most Holy Place. Check it out with one of those electronic concordances where you can put in a phrase. Or look online. | ||
| Nowisee Registered user Username: Nowisee Post Number: 706 Registered: 5-2009 |
Hi Jim! EGW just loved to ruin the assurance that is ours when we believe! My rebuttal to her quote about "supposed hope" is: Our "hope is built on nothing less than Jesus' blood and righteousness". Hope in Jesus death on the cross is never, ever "supposed"--when the old EGW "tapes" play in your head, you have to repeat scripture back at them. She told us LIES! Her writings do NOT give peace. Since Jesus said He gives us His peace, then you have to ask where her messages came from, as they contradict Jesus. Her words tell us that it's a sin of pride to say we're saved, but 1 John 5 tells us we can KNOW we have eternal life. If you have any of her books, or books that promote/teach her, I urge you to do a house-cleaning. | ||
| Bree_w Registered user Username: Bree_w Post Number: 39 Registered: 7-2007 |
Hello Jim, I rarely post here on FAF, but I just wanted to try and offer you some encouragement in regards to the issue of our circumstances and what God has to do with all of it. This past year has been both one of the best and the worst for me. The bad things kicked off with our little puppy dying then moved on to finding out a close family member was a victim of domestic violence for months without our knowledge. Shortly after we helped her remove herself from that situation it was discovered she has stage 3 brain cancer. About two months later my husband attempted suicide due to major depression (medication issues combined with the previous two events seem to have ultimately caused this attempt) and was hospitalized for a week. Less than a month after that we discovered I am pregnant with our first child and we soon discovered that the pregnancy was high-risk and required minor surgery in order to go full-term. With all that, though, it has been such a time of personal growth and blessing for us. One thing I am absolutely certain of is that God is NOT punishing us. It felt like that several times, but He is the One trying to comfort you not the one trying to beat something into your head. The most comforting thing I've learned in all of this, is that there is no such thing as just circumstances or coincidences. He allowed all the things that have happened for you and me, good and bad. He knew they would happen and He knew what our response and His response would be. You can trust God, Jim. He has promised to take care of us and to accomplish His will. The most important thing I've learned is to trust God like a toddler or infant trusts their parents. They don't get all hung up about whether Mommy and Daddy will still love them if they disobey a rule, in general they are pretty carefree. They just trust Mommy and Daddy to care for and teach them. I can't begin to explain some of the things in the Bible, but I don't need to fully understand everything right now for God to take care of me and love me. Sometimes its more than enough to just be still and know that He is God. No matter how bad things get, we can have peace. Not necessarily peace in our doctrinal understanding (I'm with you on that, I'm never 100 percent sure I am correct in my doctrine), but peace in our salvation and our Savior because of all He has accomplished on the cross. If you like music (It is great therapy for me) I suggest going to youtube and listening to a song called "Your Hands" by JJ Heller. Sometimes we really need to put everything on hold. Before this all happened I was church shopping and hoping to get involved and solidify my doctrinal understandings, etc. But I haven't been to church in quite a long time now, some people will tell me that means I'm not Christian but I know my Savior holds me. Sometimes I really think we just need time to get back to the basics of relying on Jesus. So just hold on to Jesus and He really can and will take care of circumstances and doctrine. | ||
| Bree_w Registered user Username: Bree_w Post Number: 40 Registered: 7-2007 |
To add to what I said, we all have sins we struggle with. That is where Jesus comes in. God doesn't nitpick over each and every sin of the Christian anymore. We have been covered with the blood of Jesus. That doesn't mean we are free to sin, but I don't think God is trying to get us worrying over every sin. John also says in 1 John 1 that we deceive ourselves if we say we have no sin. From what I can understand, we are positionally sinless before God. We have been cleansed and forgiven. Practically, we still fall and have an advocate, Jesus. We just need to trust Him, and fall completely at His mercy. He is worthy of our trust. | ||
| 1john2v27nlt Registered user Username: 1john2v27nlt Post Number: 233 Registered: 5-2009 |
What a testimony Bree. Thank you for posting. I had chills as I read what you wrote. J9 | ||
| Pnoga Registered user Username: Pnoga Post Number: 434 Registered: 1-2007  |
Bree great testimony, just one thought I want to put out to anyone wishing to answer this. "The most comforting thing I've learned in all of this, is that there is no such thing as just circumstances or coincidences. He allowed all the things that have happened for you and me, good and bad. He knew they would happen and He knew what our response and His response would be." I struggle with that thought. What benefit would it be that a child is raped and murdered? Do you suppose God allowed it for our good in some way? Or do you suppose that he gives man freedom of choice, to the effect that He will not stop the wickedness because He gives that person committing it free choice? A choice to believe Him and trust Him, or to utterly reject Him and commit such acts? Of course innocent will suffer because we have the chocie to believe or not. I also believe He comforts those whom trust Him even through such horrific things. Just curious how everyone else here views this. Paul | ||
| Bree_w Registered user Username: Bree_w Post Number: 41 Registered: 7-2007 |
Paul, I don't know what benefit there is when a child is raped and murdered. I think God does redeem all the evil that happens in the world, whether that redemption occurs now or in heaven or at the 2nd coming. Whenever I struggle with the idea of God's will and His omniscience in light of the evil in this world, I think of how much worse it would be if God were surprised by the things that happen. What kind of God would I serve if He was unable to protect me from evil because He didn't know what was coming in my life? It is really, really hard to think about God allowing all the bad things that go on, but at least we can have the comfort of knowing that one day He really will set all things right. Hopefully someone else can give you a better answer =) Bree | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 6988 Registered: 9-2006 |
Paul, I believe the answer to what you said is that God is long suffering, kind and full of grace, and it is not his will that any should perish. We can get a glimpse of this by reading Matthew 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! he would gather all under his wings as chicks, it is most certainly not his will that a child be raped and killed, you can lay that at the feet of sin, and there is no sin in God. I may be wrong in my thinking, but I don't think so. These things take place because of sin in the world. River (Message edited by River on December 14, 2010) | ||
| Pnoga Registered user Username: Pnoga Post Number: 435 Registered: 1-2007 |
Thanks Bree, I guess we can look at it this way, since there is no one who does good and all have sinned and fall short of the glory of god then.... Why does God allow good things to happen to bad people? His Grace and Mercy! Paul | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 12081 Registered: 12-2003  |
Bree, what a great testimony! I think you really do have the overall picture of God's sovereignty and the fact that we can trust Him no matter what happens. Terrible things happen because mankind is sold into sin. We are by nature objects of wrath (Eph. 2:3), and terrible things are inevitable. The amazing thing is that God is always working to bring humans to an admission of our sin and our need to repent; He is also always working to reveal His own glory and to redeem us and our brokenness. We tend to think that if God "made sense", then there would be no senseless violence and death. In fact, these things are the inevitable things. Adam and Eve plunged our race into unavoidable brokenness. God is always at work to reveal His grace and mercy and to bring us to repentance and forgiveness. We tend to evaluate the conditions of the world from a human (limited) perspective. In fact, when we begin to see from a biblical perspective, we see that reality is God's story, not ours, and He brings us into His story. We automatically think things are the other way around; that reality has humans at the center. Wrong! We exist for God's glory, and His sovereign mercy and grace are the reality for which our hearts long. Colleen | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 1581 Registered: 7-2007 |
Pnoga; I'd like to put a link to someone's testimony. This person had terrible PTSD from the horrible things her dad did to her when she was a very young girl. She said that God was with her all along, protecting her heart and soul - the important parts of her, keeping them safe. The testimony is called: "Dealing With My Flashbacks." http://www.precious-testimonies.com/Hope_Encouragement/f-j/jan.htm | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 1582 Registered: 7-2007 |
If people couldn't do evil things to others, then there would be no free will. God does turn things around though. Notice what Joseph said to his brothers in Genesis 50:20; "But as for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, in order to bring it about as it is this day, to save many people alive." (Also notice Romans 8:28.) I can hardly wait for Heaven though! Nothing bad will happen there!!! | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1050 Registered: 5-2007 |
Jdpascal wrote: Hi Jim. Religion is for those who fear Hell. I think Religon is for people trying to please God. Attempting to obey, perform, meet the demands. Religion is the outgrowth of an attempt to systemize our understanding of the instructions. To connect precept upon precept. Jesus said "ye do err, not knowing the scriptures" That is what religon is about , trying not to err. But this does not mean to dismiss your point. I agree that there is such a thing as fire escape religon. I am guilty of that. JD: Religion is a man made system to honor our own efforts. Rest in Jesus honors His efforts and acknowledges our complete inability to 'perform to satisfaction'. J: Is that a part view or a whole view? Why do we have the cannon? I understand that Religion can be a nightmare, a program of mistakes and dangerous presupositions. But , somewhere in all this there is a truism. If we don't want to call it a religion, let's call it relationship in Christ. In that, there is a belief system. A faith. I do not want to argue for "religion" , because I do get your point about where religion takes us in our works and vanitys of knowing better. I suppose what I am doing is essentially the same as most here, I am starting a new path, a new basis and that is invaribly taking a position in faith. Thus , there continues to be a form of religion as it were. JD: The SDA system of religion does a very thorough job of binding us to the idea that we must perform to be accepted by God even after we say we believe. J: They use scripture to accomplish that , and enhanced by the writing of EGW. This is where I have had a lot of problems. Learning what the differences are between life in the OT and the new premises in the NT. There are some things that point away from works and our entire approach in faith. But there are others that point back. JD: That command is to BELIEVE ON Jesus, THE ONE WHO GOD SENT. J: That is the starting point, and the full circle. Jim | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1051 Registered: 5-2007 |
River Wrote: My peace and contentment in this world is based on the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. It is not a supposed hope, it is a solid foundation. That foundation does not depend on bits of scripture, bits of scripture depends on that. J: What does this foundation in Christ encompass? It is the scriptures that that testify to Christ, but also scripture can generate conditions. Or at least the impression of conditions. You speak of a sure foundation in Christ. You are describing a deeper view. Jim | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1052 Registered: 5-2007 |
Asurprise, It occurs to me that I need to study Grace more deeply. I have attempted to blend the law and grace and that has not worked very well. A: And no, it's not "greasy grace." Those who think Christians believe this way, do not understand grace! If a person who believes on Jesus, receives eternal life (1st John 5:13), then how can it be temporary? And if ANY of it, including the MAINTAINING of it, is up to you, then it's not ETERNAL! J: This is what I mean. This is a study topic and it needs more focus on my part. Jim | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1053 Registered: 5-2007 |
Nowisee, N: but 1 John 5 tells us we can KNOW we have eternal life. If you have any of her books, or books that promote/teach her, I urge you to do a house-cleaning. J:I have a few left , but I rarely if ever read them, they are out in a storage area. I already got rid of 95% of those books years ago. | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1054 Registered: 5-2007 |
Bree, Thank you for sharing your thoughts and sufferings with me. It means a lot. I have noticed that when the devil attacks , it is often on more than one front or one event. One evil often begets another. B: One thing I am absolutely certain of is that God is NOT punishing us. It felt like that several times, but He is the One trying to comfort you not the one trying to beat something into your head. J: I admire and envy you on this faith point. What thoughts bring you to that abiding comfort? B: The most comforting thing I've learned in all of this, is that there is no such thing as just circumstances or coincidences. J: I tell myself that, but sometimes I wonder if some things are simply chance and God meets us after the fact. B: The most important thing I've learned is to trust God like a toddler or infant trusts their parents. They don't get all hung up about whether Mommy and Daddy will still love them if they disobey a rule, in general they are pretty carefree. J: That is a jewel of faith. To know that God is there for us. B: I can't begin to explain some of the things in the Bible, but I don't need to fully understand everything right now for God to take care of me and love me. Sometimes its more than enough to just be still and know that He is God. J: Your trust relieves you from conditional faith. B: Sometimes I really think we just need time to get back to the basics of relying on Jesus. So just hold on to Jesus and He really can and will take care of circumstances and doctrine. J: Amen | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 1588 Registered: 7-2007 |
Jim; you need to stop right there and surrender to the truth - if it's ETERNAL, then it's not dependent on you! What more needs to be studied??? I didn't know as much as you do right now, when I got saved four and a half years ago. You don't have to know the whole Bible to get saved! (For example I didn't know that the Lord is the One Who keeps us saved and that our FUTURE sins are forgiven - 1 John 2:12.) What you need to know is that you CAN'T do anything to save yourself and that Jesus already DID everything necessary for salvation! | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 1589 Registered: 7-2007 |
Jim; what if you were to die tonight? Nobody is promised tomorrow. You need to accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior NOW! You need to get saved NOW, this moment! Don't waver back and forth, figuring you have to study more first - to be SURE first. |
