| Author | Message | ||
| Leighpinski Registered user Username: Leighpinski Post Number: 148 Registered: 8-2010  |
So, I have a Facebook "friend" who is an Adventist pastor (Alden Ho). From time to time I will comment on his statuses as I did today about Christmas. In my comment today I was bold and put that I am no longer and Adventist, but that I am a Bible believing Christian. Immediately I got this private message from him: "I just noticed your comments. Why did you leave Sabbath keeping? Do you not believe, or accept the Sabbath anymore? How does Rev 12:17, 14:12, come into play for you? Concerned." It's CLASSIC, isn't it!  I am praying about how to answer him. I have to be honest, I have not studied much into the Revelation thing. So, this is good for me to know and learn! I've found this website that is a good guide, but a tad confusing for me(or maybe I'm just not absorbing it well here at work in between patients): http://www.bible.ca/7-decalogue-plus-gospel-rev-12-17.htm And I was wondering if any of you might want to give me some insight on how to answer him Just looking for some guidance and wisdom... Thanks, LA (Message edited by Leighpinski on November 30, 2010) | ||
| Leighpinski Registered user Username: Leighpinski Post Number: 149 Registered: 8-2010 |
I've also got some other ideas for responses based on the Noachide Laws. (Thanks Pat!) | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 8809 Registered: 3-2004  |
The first texts I use are in Deut 5:3 and 15 where Moses is telling the CoI that what was said at Sinai was for those who were there and that God gave them the sabbath to remind them He took them out of slavery in Egypt. As you know I also say, I am a senior citizen, but I am not that old. Every thing at Sinai was only for the Israelites. Diana L | ||
| Leighpinski Registered user Username: Leighpinski Post Number: 150 Registered: 8-2010 |
Diana, you crack me up! I prayed and sent the response to him that I felt God was leading me to send. We'll see what happens... LA | ||
| Indy4now Registered user Username: Indy4now Post Number: 937 Registered: 2-2008  |
LA~ I always find it interesting that adventists equate leaving the Sabbath as leaving God. Just like most see that discrediting Ellen is discrediting God. Those 3 are all linked. Regarding Rev. 12:17 and 14:12, John uses the Greek word "entole" in these verses. If you look up all the times that John uses this word... he uses it more as "teachings". If John is referring to the Law of Moses, he uses the word "nomos". He is very consistent about this in his writings. So to get context for these verses, look up other scripture where John uses "entole" or commandment(s). Check out John 13-15. You'll find that Christ is giving his disciples "commandments" or "entole" which is to love each other as He has loved us and he is not reiterating the 10C's to His disciples. So the commandments that John is referring to in Revelation are to Love the Lord with all your heart and to love each other as He has loved us. Hope this helps... do you have esword? It's a great Bible program that is available free on the internet. It allows you to search for words, get definitions, etc. vivian | ||
| Indy4now Registered user Username: Indy4now Post Number: 938 Registered: 2-2008 |
p.s. I would also reassure him that you haven't left God and that you find your "Sabbath" in Christ's finished work at the cross and not in a day. | ||
| Leighpinski Registered user Username: Leighpinski Post Number: 151 Registered: 8-2010 |
Oh thanks Vivian! I appreciate the wisdom. I need all I can get. I will look up esword! | ||
| Bskillet Registered user Username: Bskillet Post Number: 776 Registered: 8-2008 |
Ask him if he keeps all 613 of the commandments in the Law of Moses. Does he keep the feasts? Does he wear clothing composed of two or more kinds of cloth? Does he wear tassels on the edges of his garments? Does he keep the Sabbatical years? | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 1823 Registered: 6-2006  |
Passover was a command too... Leigh Anne | ||
| Jonvil Registered user Username: Jonvil Post Number: 466 Registered: 4-2007 |
I wrote this a couple of years ago on CARM and while it doesn't answer your question, maybe you could respond with a question. If nothing else, it would be fun watching him 'tap-dance' Why is Sabbath 'breaking' not listed as a sin? ________________________________________ Jesus lists 13 'sins' but no mention of Sabbath 'breaking'. Mar 7:18-23 And He *said to them, "Are you so lacking in understanding also? Do you not understand that whatever goes into the man from outside cannot defile him, (19) because it does not go into his heart, but into his stomach, and is eliminated?" (Thus He declared all foods clean.) (20) And He was saying, "That which proceeds out of the man, that is what defiles the man. (21) "For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries, (22) deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride and foolishness. (23) "All these evil things proceed from within and defile the man." Paul lists 17 'sins' but no mention of Sabbath 'breaking'. Rom 1:28-32 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper, (29) being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips, (30) slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, (31) without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful; (32) and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them. Paul lists 15 'sins' but no mention of Sabbath 'breaking' Gal 5:18-23 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law. (19) Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, (20) idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, (21) envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. (22) But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, (23) gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. Paul lists 18 'sins' but no mention of Sabbath 'breaking'. 2Ti 3:1-5 But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come. (2) For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, revilers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy, (3) unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good, (4) treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, (5) holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power; Avoid such men as these. If Sabbatarians define the Sabbath as a 'moral imperative' and 'the center of the Decalogue' why is this imperative never ONCE stated or even alluded to in the New Testament by God Himself or any of the NT writers? If the Sabbath is part of the moral law, the Ten Commandments, why is 'breaking' or 'not keeping' the Sabbath never included with immoral acts? Why is the sin of not keeping the Sabbath never listed? Why do Jesus and the NT writers list sins relating to the breaking of the commandments and omit the 4th commandment? If the reason given is because the Jewish converts, who knew the Law and already knew the Sabbath imperative, did not need to be reminded of the sin of breaking it, then why would they need to be reminded of the other nine? If the sins listed were to point the Gentile converts, who lacked prior knowledge of the law, to the existence of the Decalogue and the importance of obeying the Commandments, then why was the 4th commandment omitted? It's interesting to note that the only mention of Sabbath breaking is found in the Jews' accusations that Jesus broke the Sabbath by instructing and allowing others to do so. Joh 5:8-13 Jesus *said to him, "Get up, pick up your pallet and walk." (9) Immediately the man became well, and picked up his pallet and began to walk. Now it was the Sabbath on that day. (10) So the Jews were saying to the man who was cured, "It is the Sabbath, and it is not permissible for you to carry your pallet." (11) But he answered them, "He who made me well was the one who said to me, 'Pick up your pallet and walk.'" (12) They asked him, "Who is the man who said to you, 'Pick up your pallet and walk'?" (13) But the man who was healed did not know who it was, for Jesus had slipped away while there was a crowd in that place. Mat 12:1-5 At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath, and His disciples became hungry and began to pick the heads of grain and eat. (2) But when the Pharisees saw this, they said to Him, "Look, Your disciples do what is not lawful to do on a Sabbath." (3) But He said to them, "Have you not read what David did when he became hungry, he and his companions, (4) how he entered the house of God, and they ate the consecrated bread, which was not lawful for him to eat nor for those with him, but for the priests alone? (5) "Or have you not read in the Law, that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple break the Sabbath and are innocent? When is it ever permissible to break a moral law for the greater good? Could the answer be that the Sabbath is not a moral imperative? If Sabbatarians insist that the Sabbath, as given to the Jews, is binding upon Gentile Christians then Sabbatarians should then be in agreement with how the Jews define the Sabbath. "Shabbat is the most important ritual observance in Judaism. It is the only ritual observance instituted in the Ten Commandments." http://www.jewfaq.org/shabbat.htm Could the answer be that the Sabbath is a ritual observance? JONVIL | ||
| Leighpinski Registered user Username: Leighpinski Post Number: 152 Registered: 8-2010 |
Ooooh, I love that Jonvil! Thank you! | ||
| Pnoga Registered user Username: Pnoga Post Number: 425 Registered: 1-2007  |
TO add to what Jonvil and Vivian had said. Make a point to ask then who is the author of Revelation and of course they should reply the Apostle John, Ask them who the author of the Gospel of John and 1 John are, of course they should answer with the same. Now after showing them the chapters in the Gospel of John referring to the commandments there, take them to 1 John 3 which John very clearly tells his audience what Commandments we are to keep Look at 1 John 3:21-22 The commandments that Christians keep are very specific "To believe in His Son Jesus whom He sent and to Love one another as Jesus has commanded us. These commandments very nicely sum up to Love God with all your heart, mind and soul and to love one another. And Love is the motivation, this is the Love we receive from God as John states in 1 John 3-11-24 also in 1 John 4. Look at 1 John 4:20-21 again it is very clear. So now given the context look again at those verses they use in Revelation, and ask "Which commandments is John speaking of?" Paul | ||
| Pnoga Registered user Username: Pnoga Post Number: 426 Registered: 1-2007 |
I forgot to mention 2 John, again the author is John, and he clearly states that the believers are walking according to the truth in keeping with a command we have received from the Father. He states not that he is writing a new command but one we have had from the beginning that we love one another, and this is Love that we walk according to His commands. This is the command that we have heard from the beginning, we must walk in love. then beginning in verse 7 he goes on to explain that those who deny Jesus coming in the Flesh, that they are deceivers and AntiChrist. So in keeping with the commandments Believe in His Son Jesus Christ whom He sent, and love one another as Jesus commanded us. Paul | ||
| Pnoga Registered user Username: Pnoga Post Number: 427 Registered: 1-2007 |
Sorry I keep finding more as I study this out. Check out 1 John 2:23 No on who denies the Son can have the Father; he who confesses the Son has the Father as well. So again to Love the Lord with all your heart, mind and soul, is to believe/confess in His Son Jesus Christ and the other commandment to Love others as He loved us according to what John wrote in 1 John 3:21-22. I would suggest studying John, 1 John, 2 John together in light of Rev 12:17 and 14:12. A clear understanding of the covenants based on Jer 31:31-34; Hebrews 8, 9, and 10 and of course as explained what the old covenant is in Deut 5:3,15. And what Jesus and John say throughout the books of John. The new covenant is not like the old covenant (so it's not the same as the 10 commandments) everyone will KNOW God His Law will be on our minds and hearts, and no one will need to teach us saying KNOW the Lord for they will all KNOW Me. Jesus through the ministry of the Holy Spirit is the New Covenant, He is the word which became flesh and tabernacled among us as John states in chapter 1. He is the heart of flesh given when God takes away the heart of stone as Ezekiel states in 36:26-28 and 11:19-20. The new covenant is not Jesus plus the 10 commandments, it is Jesus and Jesus alone. Paul | ||
| Leighpinski Registered user Username: Leighpinski Post Number: 153 Registered: 8-2010 |
I got his response... "Hi Leigh Ann, If you read 1 Cor 14:37, the commandments Paul is referring to are none other than the ten commandments. Here's what a Bible Commentary says in reference to that passage: "He spoke to the Corinthians in the name of the Lord and under the inspiration of His Spirit. By accepting his counsel and obeying the instructions that came to them through him, they would show that they were willing to be led by the Lord. True faith will always demonstrate its genuineness by a careful regard for the commands of God. On the other hand, any profession of faith that disregards the divine commands, rejects the authority of the Scriptures, and pays no attention to the peace and order of the church, proves that it is not genuine." The Sabbath initially when instituted had nothing to do with the Jews, as it was set forth at Creation's week. Moses wrote God's Words in Ex 31:12-17, "And the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, “Speak also to the children of Israel, saying: ‘Surely My Sabbaths you shall keep, for it is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am the LORD who sanctifies you. You shall keep the Sabbath, therefore, for it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people. Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh is the Sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. Therefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant. It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel forever; for in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day He rested and was refreshed.’” So, the commandments carry over from Judaism into Christianity, when Paul gathered out the "believing remnant" to come out Judaism into Christianity or be separated from God. Acts 9:15, "But the Lord said to him, “Go, for he is a chosen vessel of Mine to bear My name before Gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel." So, you see, this therefore ties God's Commandments to be binding upon the Gentiles that also accept the gospel of Jesus Christ, which in turn solidifies Rev 12:17 & 14:12. Pertaining to Gal 3:17, as I studied this in the Commentary as well. It states the following: The entire legal system under which Israel was constituted a theocracy at Mt. Sinai, including the moral law, was proclaimed by God in person, and the ceremonial system promulgated through Moses. This period of 430 years spans the interval from God’s original call to Abraham, to the establishment of Israel as a nation at the time of the Exodus (see on Gen. 12:3, 4; see on Ex. 12:40). This was the time of sojourn, first in Canaan and then in Egypt, between the promise to make of the Hebrews a nation and to establish them in the land of Canaan, and the fulfillment of that promises. Paul is here concerned particularly with the covenant promise at the beginning of the period and the giving of the law at its close, the law under which Israel was to function as a theocracy until the crucifixion. If the claim is that the Sabbath was not established at Creation, then how does one explain the seal of God on the seventh day in Gen 2:2-3, "And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made." This same seal which is again proclaimed in Rev 14:7, calling people to worship the One who created and rested on the Sabbath, "Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who made heaven and earth, the sea and springs of water.” You are absolutely correct, that the two tablet of the commands were divided into two section: one in relation to man and God and the second, between man and man. But how then does one explain James 2:8-12, "If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well; but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors. For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law." God bless." I have no idea what he is talking about when he says I am right about the commandments being split up. I never mentioned that. I asked him the name, author and publisher of his Bible commentary. I have to go home and get out my bible before I answer. My head is spinning a little bit. I am sure that was his goal! | ||
| Leighpinski Registered user Username: Leighpinski Post Number: 154 Registered: 8-2010 |
Oh, thank you Paul. I am soaking all this up! | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 12044 Registered: 12-2003  |
Leigh Anne, he's using the SDA commentary, I'm sure. I don't think a Christian commentary would defend the law in the way that one defends it. Foul! You can't defend Adventism with Adventist commentary and make it "stick" with a Christian... Colleen | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3504 Registered: 10-2004  |
Hi Leigh Ann, I noticed that he wrote:
What on earth?!?! The Bible commentary he quotes from (probably SDA?!) doesn't even say that Paul is referring to the Ten Commandments, and he is clearly not! "If anyone thinks he is a prophet or spiritual, let him recognize that the things which I write to you are the Lord's commandment." (1 Corinthians 14:37 NASB.) How could anyone even possibly think that Paul is referring to the Ten Commandments in that verse, when he clearly says he is referring to his own writings?!?! Oh my! By the way, there is nowhere in Scripture where the phrase "Ten Commandments" is found. The phrase is not found in the NT, and in the OT it is a mistranslation in our English Bibles. The Hebrew literally says, "Ten Words" (Heb. dabar) and does not mean "commandments" at all. In fact, out of the 613 commandments (mitzvah) in the Law, the Jews count more than ten commandments (mitzvah) in the Ten Words/Decalogue. The Jews never referred to the Ten Words as "the Ten Commandments" or "the commandments" or "the commandments of God." If the Jews spoke (or speak even to this day) of the "commandments" (mitzvah) they were/are referring to all 613 commandments (mitzvah) in the Law, about 13-15 (I don't remember the exact number) of which happen to be contained in the Ten Words. So when Jesus/the NT says "commandments," not even the Jewish readers/hearers would have understood it to be referring to the Ten Words. It would either be referring to all 613 commandments in the Law (which the NT makes clear is abolished), or to Jesus' own New Covenant commandments. Jeremy | ||
| Leighpinski Registered user Username: Leighpinski Post Number: 155 Registered: 8-2010 |
Just as I suspected Colleen!!! I will let you all know what he says... | ||
| Wiredog Registered user Username: Wiredog Post Number: 55 Registered: 8-2010  |
It's irritating how SDA "pastors" will comfortably cite form the SDA Commentary (e.g., "I studied this in the Commentary as well"). You might as well say EGW says, not need to think for yourself. No exegesis or review of the original manuscript, let's talk Greek or Hebrew in context. (Message edited by wiredog on November 30, 2010) |
