| Author | Message | ||
| Indy4now Registered user Username: Indy4now Post Number: 911 Registered: 2-2008  |
I know we've discussed the whole scapegoat issue inside and out... but I saw something in Leviticus 16 the other day that really had an impact on me. This is what it says in Lev.16:21:
Think about what it means to "confess". It is acknowledging that we've done something wrong. It most cases it takes humility to be able to go to another person and admit or confess our wrongdoing. Confessing seems to go with asking for forgiveness. This all makes sense when you believe that the scapegoat represents Jesus... but what does this say if you believe that Satan is the scapegoat? Do we confess our sins over Satan? Everytime I review this chapter because I'm discussing this issue with an Adventist... the belief that the scapegoat represents Satan gets uglier and uglier. very sad. vivian | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3487 Registered: 10-2004  |
Vivian, Good points. Ellen White wrote the following:
Jeremy | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 11981 Registered: 12-2003  |
Amazing quote, Jeremy. Vivian, I agree with you completely. The SDA scapegoat teaching is dark and twisted.I keep getting letters defending the SDA teaching about it...even this weekend I received yet another letter triggered by the July/Aug/Sept Proclamation!. The lengths to which people to go say Satan the scapegoat doesn't get punished for our sins but for causing them...and even when I point out that we are responsible for our own sin(s), the arguments continue. I haven't quite identified logically why it's so threatening to them to consider Jesus being the Scapegoat, but viscerally I "know" that it's because if they admitted Jesus was the Scapegoat, their entire worldview would be threatened and begin to crumble. If Jesus is the scapegoat, they can't "blame" Satan for their sin anymore. I know I used to...I used to think, "Serves him right! He'll get it in the end for causing all this trouble..." It provides a really convenient place to put resentment, guilt, and shame. I don't have to deal with it myself if I know Satan will really "pay"--and in a real way, Satan becomes a tragic hero of sorts. Jesus is just the meek, mild, near-victim who had to shed His blood without it really accomplishing anything. His death is just a violent necessity, a piece in the bigger picture that is really completed by my own persistence, obedience, and that final satisfaction of seeing satan squirm... It's totally twisted, and God does not get the glory. Colleen | ||
| Michaelmiller Registered user Username: Michaelmiller Post Number: 145 Registered: 7-2010  |
Colleen, When I was a SDA, my perspective went something like this: Jesus death justified, but sanctification was a cooperative process requiring my own abilities (faith+works). Although I wouldn't have admitted it (cognitive dissonance), this created an underlying perception that my failure in sanctification wasn't taken care of at the cross... after all, I could still face those sins in the IJ. If that was the case, then the sins had to go somewhere later. The sins couldn't go onto Jesus any longer (that was a done event and Jesus wasn't coming back to do it again - drawn from the "not to bear sin" text in Hebrews while missing the obvious problems with reconciling the same text with the IJ doctrine). Satan was the obvious remaining choice, and Leviticus could be twisted to fit. It helped that the concept also fit a rather familiar literary cliche. That literary cliche provided warmth and comfort for the concept which made it uncomfortable to leave behind. The scapegoat was one of the first things I studied when I began questioning doctrine. Without the bigger picture of the gospel (instead of the GC worldview), I wound up leaving that early study as "inconclusive." It wasn't revisited until much later... after I had discarded the GC worldview and the IJ doctrine. Today the problems are obvious, but they were not back then. Michael | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 2142 Registered: 4-2000  |
A revealing, blasphemous quote from EGW, Jeremy. Thanks for sharing. Many Adventists, when cornered on this topic, try to tell us that they really don't believe it that way (smile). Those who don't know the facts will be deceived by Adventism yet again. Dennis Fischer | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 11986 Registered: 12-2003 |
Michael, yes. It is the GC worldview that messes with Adventists' minds. Because of it, they simply cannot see the reality of what Jesus has actually done. The scapegoat makes more sense as Satan—as you demonstrated—and that was from a partially-biblically-informed worldview. Colleen | ||
| Indy4now Registered user Username: Indy4now Post Number: 913 Registered: 2-2008 |
That quote is unbelievable Jeremy! Colleen~ I hear that argument ALL the time. Our sins are not placed on Satan... only the "consequenses" of our sins. Lev. 16 definitely states that our sins (not the "consequences") are "confessed" onto the scapegoat. I have also wondered why it's so threatening for them to believe that Jesus is our scapegoat. I wonder if it's because it would start to demolish EGW as an "authoritative source of truth". I really appreciated that you pointed out in Proclamation that it is because of Adam that we are born into sin. I hadn't made that connection to this belief of Satan being the scapegoat. Michael~ I loved reading your perspective. I see my friend going down this same path. He understands that we are justified at the cross, but he keeps restating "Our works do matter..." He must be under incredible pressure to perform if Christ's sacrifice isn't enough. When I was adventist, the name "scapegoat" was just that... a name. The day that I actually thought about what a "scapegoat" actually is... a person who is wrongly accused of a crime yet takes the punishment for it... that's when "satan" no longer made sense as the scapegoat. vivian | ||
| Freedom55 Registered user Username: Freedom55 Post Number: 69 Registered: 3-2008 |
All these years I never thought to consider what the name "scapegoat" means. I just accepted the sda teaching that it must refer to satan. But Vivian's post got me thinking. I googled scapegoat and it came back with the following definition: "One that bears the blame for others or to suffer in their place" So when you really look at the meaning behind the term, it can only refer to Jesus! I know there are more arguments to show how wrong it is to claim satan is the scapegoat. But isn't it interesting how simple it can be sometimes to find the truth? I just had to start thinking again and not be such a mindless sponge! | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 11990 Registered: 12-2003 |
Very good point, Freedom! Colleen | ||
| Freedom55 Registered user Username: Freedom55 Post Number: 70 Registered: 3-2008 |
Another thing I noticed is that when the 2 goats are brought before the Lord there was no difference between them. They had to cast lots to decide which one would be the sin offering and which one would be the scapegoat. So if the Lord's goat represents Jesus and the scapegoat represents Satan, then we're really either elevating Satan to the stature of Christ, or we're bringing Christ down to the level of Satan. How blasphemous is this? The two goats stand equal until the lots are cast. I wonder if this could be a reference to Christ being both divine and human? On the one hand as the Lord's goat He makes atonement for the Most Holy Place (Lev 16:16) and on the other hand as the scapegoat he makes atonement for the people (Lev 16:10). Just a thought. The more I look at this issue the more absurd the sda teaching becomes. And when you consider the EGW statement shared by Jeremy above I just shake my head and wonder how in the world I could ever have considered her a prophet. | ||
| Indy4now Registered user Username: Indy4now Post Number: 914 Registered: 2-2008 |
That's another great point Freedom! I'm discussing this issue with a friend. He gave me 2 references as to why he believes the scapegoat represents Satan. 1. Gen 3:15 NASB (15) And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her seed; He shall bruise you on the head, And you shall bruise him on the heel." 2. Rev 20:10 NASB (10) And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Both verses refer to Satan, but neither refer to the scapegoat. He did not reference Lev. 16 at all in defense of his belief that Satan is the scapegoat. As Colleen wrote earlier, it is baffling why they defend this belief. vivian | ||
| Wiredog Registered user Username: Wiredog Post Number: 30 Registered: 8-2010  |
Colleen I think we spoke of this Scapegoat doctrine when I called you out of the blue one day during my break out. You and Richard even prayed with me over the phone. The discussion brought up the point that it is remarkable how Satan wants so much to be thought of as the Saviour that he will try appear as an angel of light (cf. EGW's visitor/guide). And how the Adventist teaching of Azazel's goat representing Satan plays into that so well. It is exactly what Satan wants us to think, that he is the Saviour. In my own exodus from Adventisim I called a few Jewish Synagogues to ask them about the Day of Atonement ceremony. I figured as an Adventist, I always heard throughout the centuries the Jews never forgot the when the real day of rest was, so I reasoned that that logic should also be valid here. I told both rabbis who I was and what I was and what I have been raised to believe. Both rabbis told be the same thing BOTH goats represented the coming Messiah. The Satan = scapegoat teaching was incorrect. I also asked them about the Book of Enoch that was the only thing I could find, that suggested the scapegoat could be Satan or a demon. One of them told me that book is more mystical than anything else. | ||
| Nowisee Registered user Username: Nowisee Post Number: 659 Registered: 5-2009 |
Wow, Wiredog! What a good point about Satan wanting to be thought of as the Savior--you know, satan is not stupid and he sure has hooked a lot of people into this false belief and doesn't want them to even consider that it might be blasphemy. Very interesting about the rabbis, too. As an adventist, the word 'scapegoat' had kind of a dirty-name-feeling to it. It was digusting. How could I have felt that way about the One who suffered in my place?! I just really believed in you-know-who as a prophet of God. We believed a lie of darkness. I'm so sorry dear Messiah, that I ever believed such a thing in reference to You! | ||
| Indy4now Registered user Username: Indy4now Post Number: 918 Registered: 2-2008 |
Wiredog... really interesting about the rabbis. I think that adventism gives way too much power to Satan and not enough "sovereign-ness" to God. Little God... big Satan... humans with big works (like sabbath keeping). That's adventism. vivian | ||
| Freedom55 Registered user Username: Freedom55 Post Number: 71 Registered: 3-2008 |
And yet another thing I noticed in reading the text is that in Lev 16:5 it says, "From the Israelite community he is to take two male goats for a sin offering..." You follow this down to verse 7 & 8 and we find these are the same two goats that are presented before the Lord and they cast lots for. What caught my attention is that in verse 5 the two goats together are the sin offering. One of them will be sacrificed and the other sent out into the wilderness, but together they are referred to as the sin offering. How could Satan ever be a part of our sin offering? Yet that is the logical conclusion if he is the scapegoat. I really appreciate this post as it has opened my eyes to this blatantly false teaching of the sda church. And all I have done is read the scripture text, nothing else, and it seems so clear. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 11998 Registered: 12-2003 |
Freedom, yes. I agree that when the doctrine of the scapegoat is clearly seen from Scripture and compared to the SDA doctrine, this one point alone is enough to indict Adventism as not just wrong but evil. Satan puts himself at the heart of the church, hidden away in a place seldom talked about--but he is the hub around which the whole wheel revolves. Its not at all surprising that Adventists defend this teaching so viscerally and heatedly--and without understanding their emotion. There is a spiritual claim on them through this central defining point. Colleen | ||
| Freedom55 Registered user Username: Freedom55 Post Number: 72 Registered: 3-2008 |
Yes Colleen they may defend it viscerally and heatedly but without any substance. Reading from their Fundamental Beliefs they state: "A careful examination of Lev 16 reveals that Azazel represents Satan, not Christ, as some have thought." They then make 3 arguments in support of this claim, all of which are misleading, before concluding that it is more consistent to see the scapegoat as a symbol of Satan! Well I have now carefully examined Lev 16 without running to EGW for her interpretation and I have come to the opposite conclusion. Just look at Lev 16:10 where it says very cleary that the scapegoat is to be used for making atonement! That alone should be enough to show that it cannot be Satan. To make atonement means to reconcile. If we say that the scapegoat is Satan we would then be saying that it is Satan who reconciles us to God. What utter nonsense! It is insulting to our intelligence. Colleen you are so right that this alone is enough to indict the SDA church as a false church. /Cliff | ||
| Cloudwatcher Registered user Username: Cloudwatcher Post Number: 255 Registered: 5-2009 |
As an SDA, did you ever experience lingering guilt even after asking for forginess for something? Did guilt plague you at all? I've noticed that a lot of formers talk about guilt that they had as sdas, even after confession/repentance... do you think this is at all associated with the fact that the scapegoat is supposed to take the guilt away...and if you're (even subconsciously) giving your guilt to Satan, then he's happily accepting it and tormenting you with it.... only when you let God deal with it and get rid of it, can you get past it... | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 8787 Registered: 3-2004  |
The reason I felt guilty after confessing something is that I kept on doing it. It took my getting into a 12 step program where I learned that asking forgiveness also involved changing my behavior. Diana L | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 1532 Registered: 7-2007 |
"Aaron shall lay both his hand on the head of the live goat, confess over it all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions, concerning all their sins, putting them on the head of the goat..." (Lev.16:21) Beside the word "putting" in my Bible is a little letter refering me to the center colunm which in turn refers me to Isaiah 53:6. Turning to Isaiah 53:6, I read: "...And the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all." Beside the words: "has laid," there's a little reference number referring me to the center column which says: "Lit. 'has cause to land on Him.'" That seems clear enough to me...  |
