| Author | Message | ||
| Wiredog Registered user Username: Wiredog Post Number: 36 Registered: 8-2010  |
Y'all are awesome in allowing me to ask so many questions and glean from y'alls wisdom and experiences. I feel as if 2 years ago the Holy Spirit called me to respond and leave Adventisim and fueled my desire to be grounded in the Truth. Now believe I am going through a period where He is showing me what he rescued me from. From things I took for granted, dogma I ate-up with out question, and doctrines I merely regurgitated but never really digested. What I am curious about are Bible Stories/Scriptures we learned as Adventists, but after reading the actual verses in the Bible we realized we were off a bit, and sometimes a lot. Most of my examples are from Beginner & Kindergarten since that is what my wife taught, sorry. Noah and the Ark SDA Kid's lessons say an angel closed the door. I read in Scripture God closed the door. I even recall the Gracelink song that has the kids singing, "an angel shut the door, shut the door, the door to Noah's Ark. (Is that attributed to a poor editing or is that a common SDA's teaching) Eve's & the Serpent I remember my old Bible story cassettes by Chapel Records. The story says Eve wandered away from Adam and found herself admiring the the Forbidden Fruit and then the Serpent started to tempt her. Scripture says Adam was WITH her at at the Tree. (I know even some Christians say Adam was not necessarily right at her side) Christ Resurrection On a previous post I wrote about the Beginners Quarterly saying and Angel called Jesus for from the Grave and records Jesus saying something as he came out of the tomb. Neither of the 4 Gospels have any record of those events. Are there others y'all have caught in your Bible reading? I have to admit sometimes in my Adult Sunday School Class I am hesitant to speak because I don't know if my recollection of the event is tainted with SOP of sans-EGW. (Message edited by wiredog on November 19, 2010) | ||
| Cloudwatcher Registered user Username: Cloudwatcher Post Number: 256 Registered: 5-2009 |
I think this is one of my favorite "former" topics because it's an example of SDAs so blatantly changing the Bible and serving it up to unsuspecting, receptive CHILDREN as truth, in order to indoctrinate them with SDA theology and a reliance on EGW (from cradle roll on). Here are some other examples I've come across. Noah's Ark - the teaching that he preached for 120 years and begged the people to come in and be saved to avoid dying in the flood. This is used to parallel coming into the true church to avoid destruction. (Doctrine = Remnant) http://www.gracelink.net/site/1/Lessons/Kindergarten/2008/Q1/STUDENT/06.pdf Adam and Eve - dressed in robes of light, serpent has wings. http://www.gracelink.net/site/1/Lessons/Kindergarten/2008/Q1/STUDENT/04.pdf Jesus turns the water into Juice "All the juice is gone!" (DOCTRINE = health message) http://www.gracelink.net/site/1/Lessons/Kindergarten/2008/Q2/STUDENT/10.pdf Elijah and the ravens - (Doctrine = health message) -- The ravens don't bring Elijah meat...just bread or generic food. http://www.gracelink.net/site/1/Lessons/Kindergarten/2008/Q3/STUDENT/05.pdf Zaccheus starts doing right FIRST (before meeting Jesus and before being declared saved...be sure to read the EGW reference for this and compare it with the biblical account) http://www.gracelink.net/site/1/Lessons/Kindergarten/2009/Q1/STUDENT/K-09-Q1-06.pdf Jesus promises the thief on the cross that ONE DAY (vs. today) he would be in heaven http://www.gracelink.net/site/1/Lessons/Kindergarten/2009/Q1/STUDENT/K-09-Q1-12.pdf When Jesus comes, we’ll have eyes that can see angels. You will see lots and lots of angels in the clouds. And you will see your special guardian angel who has loved you and taken care of you ever since you were born.” (GUARDIAN ANGEL?!) http://www.gracelink.net/site/1/Lessons/Kindergarten/2009/Q1/STUDENT/K-09-Q1-13.pdf There are lots of examples of how the Sabbath is taught too (God gave it to Adam and Eve as a gift, a day to spend time with them and reveal all the secrets of creation, etc.) Here's one: http://www.gracelink.net/site/1/Lessons/Kindergarten/2008/Q1/STUDENT/03.pdf There are also examples of how modesty (meaning, no jewelry) is portrayed in SDA children's books (the bad people always have on jewelry and the good people are plain SDAs). Also, the illustrations in the My Bible Friends series, portray Daniel eating a vegetarian diet, refusing the king's unclean meat and wine, and then asking God to help the king see that his diet is superior. I could go on and on... I'm working on a project that brings all these things together in visual form (if you can find me an example of how the IJ is taught to children, that would be awesome). My point is, even if you're a committed SDA, surely you see the value in knowing what is from the Bible and what is EGW. Is it not disturbing that the lines are blurred in the lessons to children? I had a meeting with the children's minister at our church to share some of these things. She said she's never seen anything like it. | ||
| Cloudwatcher Registered user Username: Cloudwatcher Post Number: 257 Registered: 5-2009 |
one more thing. Got this from the Gracelink website: *** Every lesson is supported by the writings of Ellen G. White. The Conflict of the Ages series is referred to most often. Other references include Steps to Christ, Thoughts From the Mount of Blessing, and Christ’s Object Lessons. *** GraceLink has incorporated the principles of the Spirit of Prophecy in every lesson, and encourages teachers to use it as an additional resource. *** Writers regularly referred to The Seventh-day Adventist ®Bible Commentary series to grasp understanding of the message being taught. ** Virtually every Adventist doctrine is taught at some point during the 12-year curriculum. Even very young children learn of baptism by immersion, the state of the dead, the Sabbath, and other essential doctrines. These and others are taught through stories in coherent thematic clusters and reinforced through activities during the Sabbath School hour. The bedrock Adventist message is taught at every level with the most effective methods of instruction. | ||
| Wiredog Registered user Username: Wiredog Post Number: 37 Registered: 8-2010 |
Cloudwatcher wow thank you. Some of these yes I do remember others I had no idea I had been "slipped a mickey" The reversal of events in Zacchaeus' Story angers me. It is the story that we are made worthy by our deeds first. Grrrrrrrrrrrrrr! (Message edited by wiredog on November 19, 2010) | ||
| Wiredog Registered user Username: Wiredog Post Number: 38 Registered: 8-2010 |
Say Cloudwatcher, I was talking with my wife Kathe about this, this morning. She was writing a comment to an SDA friend who responded to something I posted on fB concerning the commingling of SOP with Scripture. Kathe also taught cradle roll (i.e, Beginners) and she pointed out to me that in the Christmas story, Gracelink materials have Joseph saying And my wife will soon have a baby. http://www.gracelink.net/site/1/Lessons/Beginner/2010/Q4/STUDENT/B-10-Q4-L03.pdf The Gospel writers point out she was not yet married. NASB says engaged, NIV says fiancee. Hmmm I'll keep looking for an IJ example but you are right that one is difficult. I think its because Scripture does not even allude to it so how does one bend a Bible story that far? Also would you mind if I use your material above and give citation to you and your post on FAF? I'd like to use it as a NOTE on fB but I know FAF has certain rules about posting certain materiaqls written here. Cheers, Ben | ||
| Surfy Registered user Username: Surfy Post Number: 707 Registered: 11-2007 |
I think it is in Cragle Roll that they teach the song called Father Abraham. Father Abraham had many sons, and many sons had Father Abraham. i am one of them and so are you, so let's just praise the Lord.... It starts before they can even talk. They are brought up thinking that they are part of Isreal and that includes keeping the same laws. Actually, only keeping the same laws that they want to keep as they don't keep them all and not even thinking that Abraham, himself, didn't have any of those laws. Surfy | ||
| Dljc Registered user Username: Dljc Post Number: 202 Registered: 7-2010 |
Thanks wiredog for this thread and those like it that you've started. I never knew some of this stuff you all are talking about, being one of the "never beens" around here. It's good to see some the things they do teach so I can talk to my SDA friend about them. | ||
| Wiredog Registered user Username: Wiredog Post Number: 39 Registered: 8-2010 |
Dljc, I'm glad the last few threads were helpful for you. Personally, despite being 4th Gen raised SDA I am asking these things because I want to know too; sometimes I am surprised! I think that is why Adventism is very dangerous, is masquerades around like it is Christian but under close scrutiny it has fangs and venom at the core. Most of us don't know it because, like Cloudwatcher has shown, it starts at Cradle roll (Adventist speak for pre-school Sabbath School class). When we are fully matured, so has the EGW fantasy stories. I don't really understand why it is but Adventist don't have a desire to read, let alone exposit and exegete the Scriptures so as adults we are weak at discerning Scripture from EGW; as we are instructed in 1 Thes 5:21, "to test everything that is said. Hold onto what is good." Unknowingly we end up passing it on to our kids, through our theology and teachings. I Praise God Dljc that you are a "never been". You CAN SEE what is true and witness to your SDA friend! Cheers! | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 12002 Registered: 12-2003  |
Wiredog and Cloudwatcher, I love these threads, too! You're absolutely right that children are brainwashed/indoctrinated from infancywith their mother's milk, so to speak. They are taught a false worldview from birth on. These doctrines are false and revolve around a core where Satan bears away the sins of the saved. He has a claim on Adventists, even unwittingly, because these doctrines are what Paul calls doctrines of demons (1 Tim 4:1-4). Their incredible blindness is no accident; they KNOW they've got to start with the children; that's why they have SDA schools. Kids have to be totally shaped by the false worldview; then, when they grow up and are less "plastic", they will be set in Adventism. Even if they hear biblical truth, they are trained to dismiss it as horrific heresy. They learn a paranoid, self-aggrandized picture of themselves, and they are very hard to lure away. Those who are converted into Adventism later often have more of a chance of leaving, especially if they were born again before being deceived by SDA-ism. But lifers are an animal of a different breed. Using a textile analogy: lifers have the grain of Adventism woven into their deepest fiber; front and back have the design. Later converts are more like fabric printed with the design. As time passes, that design may become more incorporated into the convert, but they have an essential difference, especially at first. Colleen | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 1509 Registered: 3-2009 |
There are many times when people in this forum say that SDA are not saved and things of this sort. Now Colleen says: So if some one is born again and is deceived by SDA, now this person is SDA, would this person lose its salvation? And please don't say that they were not born again to begin with. Colleen is clear when she says that they were born again before being deceived. Hec | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3496 Registered: 10-2004  |
Hec, No, I do not believe that they would lose their salvation. I do believe that there are some born again people who are sucked into Adventism and other non-Christian cults. (Perhaps this happens even more often in Adventism, due to the fact that they hide their true beliefs better than some of the other cults). Jeremy | ||
| Wiredog Registered user Username: Wiredog Post Number: 40 Registered: 8-2010 |
Hec, From what I know about my experience in Adventisim is there are many who really don't drink in ALL the doctrine. Kathe and I call them "SDA but's" from the expression we hear so often, I'm an SDA but I don't beleive in the <fill-in-the-blank> IJ, SOP, or Condtional Imortality, etc. I beleive that although they are among the elect and become SDAs, the doctrines they grasp, they don't beleive to be salvific. I take it these are the ones the GC Min Div told me come into Adventisim not believeing in some of the Fundamental Beliefs but are "supposedly" going to see the light. You probably know SDAs who say,"I keep the Sabbath but Sunday Keepers will make it to heaven too." As a lifer built from Cradle Roll up most drink it all in becasue they never had any other teaching and grow up in the environment and know no other. That's at least my $0.02. Cheers, Ben (Message edited by wiredog on November 20, 2010) | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 2308 Registered: 5-2007  |
Wiredog, I didn't think it out this way but I see I also had one of those "buts". One of the things I didn't believe, as an SDA, was that it was wrong to defend myself, even if it meant someone ended up dead as a result. In times of war or in other situations such as when police protect us from those who would harm us, killing was not murder. (Only later did I learn that "kill" in the King James Bible is not "murder" in modern English.) Granted, only God has the right to end life. But, be assured that if you come at me or those I am responsible to protect, you have just sacrificed your rights. I have never killed another person and pray that it never happens. Anyway, this is all about why I became a Marine. Later, other "buts" came to my attention such as when I saw the sure power of the Holy Spirit in the lives of "Sunday Keepers" which was a contrast to the deadness in the SDA church I was still a member of. Fearless Phil | ||
| Indy4now Registered user Username: Indy4now Post Number: 923 Registered: 2-2008  |
... don't forget the tower of Babel story! As an adventist, I was taught that the reason they built the tower of Babel was to avoid another flood. The Bible says that they built a tower to make themselves a name (Gen. 11). vivian | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 2312 Registered: 5-2007 |
These towers exist all around the world. The first tower, known as Babel, was built on low ground when all they had to do was move to high ground if flooding was what they were concerned about. Fearless Phil | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 6916 Registered: 9-2006  |
Hec, you asked a good question, however I think it is a 'Loaded question'. You seem to be asking for an answer straight across the board that would put Adventist in one category or another. My Dad used to say this to me, "Son, you can't see the Spirit enter or leave." As for myself I believe that most Adventist are not in a saved condition due to what the Bible says about the simple requirements for salvation. I think the greater danger is that they think they are, or hope to be saved in the end. I think the greater danger is that they, as a general rule, will appear before God without a mediator, and at that time they will know the truth, because they will be under the judgment when the time has already past to except the atonement of our Lord and savior. I fear terrible words will be spoken to them, "Depart from me, I never knew you." God knows his own from someone who thinks he belongs to God, and he will not lie in that day. The greater danger is that they think that just because they belong to the Adventist church, that somehow things will come right in the end, that the church can save them. Deceit is called deceit because that's what it is, it makes you think one thing when the thing is entirely something else, and you know that. Colleens message is not wishy washy, it is as she said it is. Now seeing as there are many in the Adventist religion who run a real risk of being turned away in the day of judgment, it seems to me to be far safer to assume I am dealing with an unsaved person, than it is to assume that they are saved and have no need to be evangelized. if the person is saved, there is no risk of getting them unsaved surely, is there? I have thirty or 40 Adventist friends, one who is the brother of of another forum member and I truly have love for them in my heart, but I am afraid fro their souls, pure and simple, I can't sit here and say they are saved or not saved, and that makes the situation even more fearful to me, it turns me inside out when I even think about them. For instance, do you think I worry a second about Phil or Vivian there whether they are save or not? The Holy Spirit has already confirmed them to me that they are my bother and sister in Christ, but the Holy Spirit has not confirmed my Adventist friends, not a one of them, which leads me to believe they are in danger and need prayer for salvation, and I mean real heart felt prayer. This is not a joking matter Hec, and you are not going to be able to succeed in anyone sticking someone else in some neat little category. They have more integrity than that. If I didn't know your heart better I would be about half mad at you for saying what you just said. River | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 1512 Registered: 3-2009 |
River, don't get mad at me because if you do, there is only one more thing to do, to get un-mad at me. So there. I think your dad said it right, "My Dad used to say this to me, "Son, you can't see the Spirit enter or leave." Hec | ||
| Nowisee Registered user Username: Nowisee Post Number: 662 Registered: 5-2009 |
Wiredog, I may have missed this as it's late, but what about the cloud 'the size of a man's hand' that is to be visible in the sky before the second coming? I looked that up and it's in (weirdly enough) 1 Kings 18:44, describing a rain cloud that broke the drought after Elijah had a showdown with the prophets of Baal. | ||
| Wiredog Registered user Username: Wiredog Post Number: 41 Registered: 8-2010 |
Nowisee, You know I also heard that too, as far back as I can remember. Also that God will come from the area in the Constellation of Orion. Cloudwatcher shareed with me a really cool quiz she put together that had that story and others that were fed to us and where in the Scriptures the real account and details are found. I am stepping through the though process and arguments I examined to when I decided to follow the Holy Spirits lead to leave Adventisim on my fB page. Boy do I feel the heat! When I will post the link there hopefully to have a lighthearted look at a serious issue. WHen I do I'll share it here and let you know. Cloudwatcher might even post it here ahead of me. I'd be curious how successful you are to detect certain fallacies. Again it is all Cloudwatchers work I am just leaching off her work ;) Cheers, Ben | ||
| Freeatlast Registered user Username: Freeatlast Post Number: 684 Registered: 5-2002 |
Wiredog, that Orion myth is official Adventist teaching: "Dark heavy clouds came up, and clashed against each other. The atmosphere parted and rolled back; then we could look up through the open space in Orion, whence came the voice of God. The holy city will come down through that open space." {Ellen G. White, CET 111.2} | ||
| Wiredog Registered user Username: Wiredog Post Number: 42 Registered: 8-2010 |
Freeatlast, Thanks for the citation. Ever since I woke up to Adventisim I like to see the original source in context so I don't get hoodwinked again. Cheers, Ben | ||
| Wiredog Registered user Username: Wiredog Post Number: 43 Registered: 8-2010 |
Cloudwatcher, Thank you again for the quiz questions. I went ahead and posted them as a NOTE on my fB page. http://www.facebook.com/notes/benard-campomanes/well-what-do-you-know/479979807566 When I post the answers I will also post the link you gave to me so "they" whomever that is can go to the one you made as long as that page stays up. I also did what researching I could to get the Bible verses and the Oldest dated EGW citation of the falsehood. If it helps or you have better references to add more it would be appreciated. Again thank you for the great head start ;) I had been thinking about something like this for a long time. Here is the Answer & Citation key I assembled. The Bible references and EGW references are actually hyperlinks in my document but they done work here. If anyone wants a copy with the hyperlinks of what I found, msg me here or fB and I'll send them to you. Cloudwatcher might have a more comprehensive list than me. ANSWERS & CITATIONS 1. See Genesis 3 (cf., Patriarchs and Prophets, Page 53) 2. See Daniel 1 (cf., Testimonies for the Church Volume 4, Page 515) 3. See Genesis 3 (cf., Patriarchs and Prophets, Page 54) 4. See 1 Peter 1:20 (cf., The Great Controversy 1911, Page 347) 5. See John 2:1-12 (cf., The Desire of Ages, Page 149) 6. See Genesis 2-3 (cf., Patriarchs and Prophets, Page 57) 7. There is no mention of this in the Bible. (cf., The Spirit of Prophecy Volume 1, Page 28) 8. There is no mention of this in the Bible. See Revelation 2:17 for something similar. (cf., The Great Controversy 1888, Page 646) 9. There is no mention of this in the Bible. See Hebrews 1:14 to begin studying about angels. (cf., The Great Controversy 1888, Page 512) 10. See Matthew 2 for Wise Men and Star & Luke 2 for shepherds no . (cf., The Desire of Ages, Page 260) 11. There is no mention of this in the Bible. Jesus has always been God. (cf., The Story of Redemption, Pages 13-14) 12. See Genesis Chapters 6 & 7 (cf., Patriarchs and Prophets, Page 92) 13. See Matthew 27:50-53 (cf., Desire of Ages, Page 786) 14. Begin reading about the second coming in Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 17, and follow the cross references. (cf., for statement on Orion Christian Experience and Teachings of Ellen G. White, Page 111, for statement on black cloud The Great Controversy 1888, 640) 15. See 1 Kings 17:4-6 (cf., Testimonies for the Church Volume 3, Page 288) One of the ones I could not find the explicit statement was about Elijah #15. I clearly saw where she first "Angels" brought the food as opposed to ravens as written in the Bible, so I reworded the question. I could not find where she left out "meat" as one of the items the ravens brought. The only reference I could see was via the illustrations on the kids material. Cloudwatcher, again awesome job, thank you! |
