| Author | Message | ||
| Michaelmiller Registered user Username: Michaelmiller Post Number: 138 Registered: 7-2010  |
When read in context this is what I see in Romans 7: In verses 1-6 I see clinging to the law at the same time as the Spirit represented as spiritual adultery. In verses 7-25 I see a struggle between two laws fighting for control. The key to understanding the entire chapter (and more specifically vs 7-25) is the setup done in verse 6. I know this section of scripture meant something different to me before and after the veil was removed. Before it was only useful for intellectual proof texting, but afterward it has become very personal. Michael | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 6897 Registered: 9-2006  |
Quote: "Sincerity of belief is no substitute for biblical truth." No it is certainly not, but neither is biblical truth a magic gum ball machine that you insert a magical exact quarter into, and a magical exact gum ball pops out. It is the Spirit that gives life. | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1020 Registered: 5-2007 |
Michael, Assurance of salvation. For the most part, I believe that I have that assurance. Even so, I know I do not have peace as yet, since perfect love casts out fear. For me, fear is still a large part of my reality. Today, as I have done for years now. I go shopping. Standing there in line, anxiety wells up. Why, because I am not sure of my convictions and fear loss or punishment on some level. We often speak of Spiritual discernment. That is one of those hard to define concepts. In ones mind/soul/thought , we have reasoning, cognitive thinking, we have temptations, doubts, suggestions, thoughts, conjectures and interpretations. We have dispositions, our habits, natures and character types, we have our own history of learning, filters, experiences, traumas, pain, loss, burnt fingers. So mix all that together and we have a person wrapped up into one total experience. In my case, I am trying to learn how to grow in Christ, to find healing on so many levels and to not walk into any more traps and mistakes. So I experiment because I have no other avenue to change anything in my life except to try. Now if something goes wrong, I interpret it on a Spiritual level. But all to often it is a false interpretation born of fear. When I propose a new change, a stepping out in faith, I watch for doors to open or close. Sometimes I get so sick I cannot even get out the door. Sometimes I get in the car only to turn around. What/who do I blame? I blame myself, my own anxiety. I experience anxiousness when I do not have peace about what I am doing. I don't have the conviction I need. How do I interpret that? Tossed about in the sea? Already condemned? Impossible to please God? Always learning but never......... Faith fails me, stepping into the water fails me, experimenting fails me. All because I do not have that missing abiding peace that connects to strength. You called it assurance. Maybe it is that simple. You suggested setting it all aside. That is usually what I end up doing when I finally burn out. Then I start to feel better, just letting it all go. Though, neutral is not an answer either. Jim | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 11972 Registered: 12-2003  |
You know, Jim, I keep coming back to the same thing Michael said above when I read your posts. If you have assurance that you ARE saved, I am thankful. Your anxiety about doing it "right", however, concerns me. Peace is God's gift to us when we trust Him. I love Romans 15:13:
Analyze that sentence phrase by phrase. First, God is identified as the God of hope. Paul's prayer is that his readers will be filled with peace and joy—but it's not random peace and joy that comes magically from "out there". It's rooted in believing. Believing what? Well, the gospel, of course...and more than than, it's rooted in believing God and His promises. The gospel is the good news of Jesus paying the price for our sin so we can live—but Scripture is full of declarations from God that are ours when we are born again. For example, NOTHING can remove us from His and His Son's grip--John 10:28. What we need to eat, drink, and wear will be supplied if we seek first the kingdom of heaven—Matthew 6:24-35. God will avenge those who unrepentantly transgress against us—Rom. 12:19. We are God's heirs—Rom 8:17. God's power is made perfect in our weakness—2 Cor 12:9. God makes a home for the lonely—Ps. 68:6. And on and on...and Jim, these things are CERTAIN—but He asks us to trust Him. That means giving up the rationalizing and instead, rest—trusting that He will do what He says He will do—perhaps in ways we would never imagine, but He will do it. As long as we're struggling to figure out how to make these things happen, or to understand how God works and how we "fit" into the equation, we'll stagnate in anxiety. When things don't make sense, when resolution seems out of reach, it's not our job to make excuses for God or to try to figure out what we need to do in order to experience His promises. He really asks us to lay down our compulsive cogitation and rest, asking Him to plant us firmly in reality and asking Him to be our rest and peace. We are asked to BELIEVE what God says—not because circumstances confirm His word, but simply because He says it. When we give up trying to manage and understand, His power is realized in that place of weakness that we give up trying to fix. Trust, Jim--it's all about trust. And trust is active, not passive. In other words, "trust" means that I choose to STOP analyzing and instead give up managing and rest in His word, waiting for Him. I can't tell you how often I pray, "Father, please just take care of me." I have to give up insisting that I be understood, or that I see what tomorrow will bring, or...whatever. Ask God to teach you what you need to know, understand what you need to understand, and trust God in the places where you feel anxious and against the wall. His word is absolutely sure. Colleen | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1021 Registered: 5-2007 |
Dear Colleen, Thank you. It means a lot to me. Jim | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 2302 Registered: 5-2007  |
Jim, Having you here means a lot to me because I have always seen you as someone who honestly shares what you are thinking and feeling. I do cry and pray for you when some of the things that are clear to most of us don't seem to be so for you. But, your assurance of your personal salvation should carry you over those hard moments. PS Right now I to am going through some "hard moments" myself, but our Lord is there to uplift me and those I love. Fearless Phil | ||
| Surfy Registered user Username: Surfy Post Number: 703 Registered: 11-2007 |
_______________________________________________ “The law establishes and fortifies the gift of faith in the sense of the sanctification process.” Hec _______________________________________________ I know you were quoting some adventist publication but I need to comment on it. Sanctification is NOT a process. We were taught otherwise but it is in error. We were taught that justification comes in an instant but sanctification is the work of a lifetime. I think this is one of the things that Jim02, and a lot of others are struggling with. Read the following text. Justification and sanctification are the same thing and both are spoken of IN THE PAST TENSE. It's a done deal. It's over. We didn't have a part in it. 1 Corinthians 6:11 "And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God." NIV Sometimes we think too much. Sometimes we should sit back, read the Word and take it at face value. Surfy | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 1493 Registered: 3-2009 |
Surfy, I was not quoting any SDA author. I was quoting Dennis in answer to his question about how what he was saying could make one go back to SDA. Please read the interchange between Dennis and me in this thread. Hec | ||
| Michaelmiller Registered user Username: Michaelmiller Post Number: 140 Registered: 7-2010 |
Jim, Give me a day or two... I've typed out multiple responses to your query, but none of them seem appropriate. I have a concept to convey, but the words are just not there yet. In the meantime... You said: Already condemned? Impossible to please God? Always learning but never......... I know you were mentioning these questions regarding your -current study-, but they have a parallel application that is too obvious to neglect. In this parallel application, the answers are: Yes, yes, and you need to follow through with your ellipsis... You have described the simple gospel! You were born into sin and have been condemned. The law points this out. It is impossible for you to "do" anything that will be adequate enough to earn salvation. Thank God that through Jesus you are set free from the law which condemns and can live in the new way of the Spirit! A quick question... If you had to put all of your fears into a single question, what would that question be? Michael | ||
| Michaelmiller Registered user Username: Michaelmiller Post Number: 141 Registered: 7-2010 |
Something the pastor where we've been attending said a few weeks ago when preaching about Mat 5:8... "An enlightened mind or a restrained body will not purify your heart." I know it doesn't really help with the discussion any but I felt like sharing it. Michael | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 2136 Registered: 4-2000  |
Hec and Surfy, Are you saying that Christian growth is unbiblical and that we have already matured enough ("a done deal")? Hebrews 12:14 urges us to strive for holiness, or sanctity. This is the most common understanding of sanctification, the growth in holiness that should follow conversion (Eph. 1:4;Phil. 3:12). Sanctification is chiefly the outflow of an overflowing life within the soul, the "fruit" of the Spirit in all manner of Christian graces (Gal. 5:22-23) and summed up as "sanctification" (Romans 6:22). Justification--the privileged status of acceptance--comes through the Cross; sanctification--the ongoing process of conformity to Christ--is achieved by the Spirit, but not as a sudden miraculous gift; the NT knows nothing of any shortcut to that ideal. The believer ever desires to grow more and to be further changed into Christ's image, stage by stage, as the indwelling Spirit directs and empowers. Paul's denial that he is already "perfect," and his exhortations to ongoing sanctification, show that he does not think a final, completed sanctification can be claimed in this life. Dennis Fischer | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1022 Registered: 5-2007 |
Michael, One question, It would be. How can I please God? Jim | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1023 Registered: 5-2007 |
Phil, I am sorry you are in the hard moments. This old world is so full of pain. Thank you for your kindness. I will pray for you and your family. Jim | ||
| Surfy Registered user Username: Surfy Post Number: 704 Registered: 11-2007 |
That's exactly what I'm saying. “I tell you the solemn truth, the one who hears my message and believes the one who sent me HAS eternal life and will not be condemned, but has crossed over from death to life." John 5:24. Certainly we can grow in grace..whatever that means to you. Yes, we can continue in good works. Most certainly, we grow in the knowledge of our Lord. But I can't buy the thought that there is anything we can do to earn or grow ourselves into sanctification. What is sanctification anyway? Sanctification is the work of God by which He makes us holy. It's done. I can't add anything to it. I am holy and blameless right now. Surfy | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 1812 Registered: 6-2006  |
I heard this once, and I wish I could remember where it came from but it seems appropriate ~ I have nothing to contribute to my salvation except for the sins by which I am redeemed.  Leigh Anne (Message edited by grace_alone on November 14, 2010) | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 2137 Registered: 4-2000 |
Surfy, You are confusing sanctification with justification. The Bible nowhere states nor even alludes to the notion that sanctification can become a "done deal" in this life. Moral renovation, whereby we are increasingly changed from what we once were, flows from the agency of the indwelling Holy Spirit. Regeneration is birth; sanctification is growth. In regeneration, God implants desires that were not there before: desire for God, for holiness, and for the hallowing and glorifying of God's name in this world; desire to pray, worship, love, serve, honor, please God, and desire to show love and bring benefit to others. Christians become increasingly Christlike as the moral profile of Jesus (the "fruit of the Spirit") is progressively formed in them (2 Cor. 3:18;Gal.4:19;5:22-25). Having been declared righteous in a forensic sense (justification) does not preclude Christ from living in us and we living in Christ (an ongoing sanctification process). Dennis Fischer | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 2649 Registered: 8-2004  |
"And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God." 1 Corinthians 6:11 (KJV) So which of these is not an 'already happened' thing? Are washed? Are sanctified? or Are Justified? Sanctification - being set apart for a holy purpose - is just as much a thing God does (and has done) for us as Justification is. | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 2138 Registered: 4-2000 |
In 1 Corinthians 6:11, Paul addressed "some of you." Though not all Christians have been guilty of all those particular sins, every Christian is equally an ex-sinner, since Christ came to save sinners. Some who used to have those patterns of sinful life were falling into those old sins again. They needed to be reminded that if they went all the way back to live as they used to, they were not going to inherit eternal salvation, because it would indicate that they never were saved (cf. 2 Cor. 5:17). Being "sanctifed" results in new behavior, which a transformed life produces. Sin's total domination is broken and replaced by a new pattern of obedience and holiness. Though not perfection, this is a new direction (Rom. 6:17;18,22). As one who is washed, sanctified, and justified eternally by God's grace, the believer is set free. The Corinthians, however, had done with that freedom just what Paul had warned the Galatians not to do. "Do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh" (Gal. 5:13). Here Paul exposed the error in the Corinthian Christians' rationalization that they were free to sin, because it was covered by God's grace. Dennis Fischer | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 6898 Registered: 9-2006 |
In 1Cor 6-11 Paul is not saying that they were falling back into same old sins of thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, he is saying that these some of these life styles some of them had had in the past. The context is to remind them they should be able to settle their petty differences without the courts. He ends on a positive note, calling them to live according to who they are in Christ. In Christ we are sanctified (declared completely the Lords property and Justified (declared completely not guilty of any past record) so we should strive to live according to who we are in Christ. Paul is not saying that some of the Corinthians had never been saved. In the past, some of us were living in styles of deeply staining moral degradation and depravity. Having been washed by the blood of Jesus, even the most de-humanizing, memory riddling sins are not only covered through the washing of Christs blood, but a totally new stance before God is given. Right Mary, its all God, he is totally able to finish the what he has started in us. I want to have a heart to heart talk with you here, if you will please bear with me a moment. Speaking from the position of having been redeemed some 38 years ago, not of myself, but redeemed by the will of God. Through neglect of regular bible study and prayer, you can fall into sin that would gag a maggot, and in so doing falling into the devils trap of condemnation, but the bible declares that if we sin, we have an advocate with the father. Jesus is ever living, ever able to forgive, ever able to deliver us from our enemies. Yesterday the pastor preached on deliverance through praise, God inhabits the praises of his people, and if praise is continually in our mouth, the enemy cannot stand to come near us. We need to continually give him praise, no matter what is happening around us. River | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1025 Registered: 5-2007 |
I look at sanctifaction as being connected to God's power from the beggining (at justifaction) and continuing through out our life. Let Him take hold of My strength....... Where does that fit in? Are we reaching up or is God leaning down and picking us up? Sanctifaction begins with proverbial milk. Then if in fertile soil , fruit and growth in the reality of Christ. Do we have any control over what soil we land in? On the rocks, or shallow depths. How do we know if we are called? Jim |
