| Author | Message | ||
| Paulcross Registered user Username: Paulcross Post Number: 105 Registered: 4-2005 |
Jim, A couple of thoughts that really help me understand this "changed attitude" toward law... First, The whole story in Matthew 17 in which there is a clear message of a NEW frame of reference for the followers of Jesus. The old loyalty to the law (Moses) and the prophets (Elijah) is replaced and eclipsed by the authority of Jesus (vs. 5 TNIV) "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased. Listen to him!" This is a transfere of their frame of reference and guiding authority. Second, As I work my way through the Gospel of Mark I am seeing a pattern in which Jesus is in conflict with the religious authorities because He is challenging their authority (which was law-based) and replacing it with the rational that He himself was sufficient authority to establish me norms, new behaviours. Mark 1:22 & 27 Just a quick impression based on Mark"s first chapters but other Gospel stories support this challenge to the authority of the "law and the prophets". Paul Cross | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 11967 Registered: 12-2003  |
Paul, good points! I believe one of the big roadblocks to "getting" the concept that the Law is obsolete in Christ is the notion that the Law is "the transcript of God's character". NO—Jesus is the "transcript", or revelation of God's character. The law was created and given to Israel—the WHOLE law--not just the decalogue but the entire law—as a tutor to contain them and to lead them to Christ (Gal 3). We can't separate the moral law from the ceremonial law; it's simply never a biblical idea. The principles of the 10 Commandments are not obsolete; God is always God, and His righteousness is ALWAYS our standard, with or without the written law. Before the law was given, God's righteousness was humanity's standard. Since Jesus came we have a MUCH better revelation of God's righteousness; our standard is now the Lord Jesus, and He takes responsibility for those of us who are born again by making us alive by His Spirit and filling us with Himself, teaching us from the inside out to live according to His word and will. The Bible reveals God's will to us; the indwelling Holy Spirit keeps us convicted of the ways our flesh and habits and natural desires oppose God and His purposes for us by making His word alive in our minds. We aren't less obligated to live godly lives when we are born again; we are MORE obligated...but it's as a fruit of being saved, not as a means of becoming saved. Colleen | ||
| Christo Registered user Username: Christo Post Number: 245 Registered: 2-2008 |
Dennis, The Ten Commandments didn't all of a sudden become the Nine Commandments. This is the very idea that gives Adventism so much traction. The letter never pierces, or shames the heart to make a changed heart, or delivers the promises of God. This is why sdas are as big a bunch of sinners, as any other group. Sometimes even more so , because the Law which they live under, is spoken of in scripture, as inducing one to sin even more. I find it interesting that Moses broke the tablets of stone. This was possible because Moses was a man of faith, and was not of the bloodline of Israel, was not under the Law, he was never under bondage to Egypt, (he was actually a ruler of Egypt) and was not delivered from Egypt so much as he was uses as an instrument of God to deliver Israel from Egypt. I can see Moses as an incomplete picture of Christ. Moses did not enter the Promised Land, because he probably loved the stumble bums he led so much that he was not willing to go where they were unable to go. He led people who were not of faith but of the letter, after all they all agreed THIS WE SHALL DO, when given the commandments. I think one of the hardest things for the Bible to explain, is how Grace, is not a license to sin. The letter might reveal a sin or two here or there, but only the Spirit, can convict you of sin in a way produces a changed heart. Who is the Spirit given? To those who accept Christ, and his mercy, forgiveness, and grace. Jesus, on the other hand has gone where we can go. By Faith, Chris | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 2297 Registered: 5-2007  |
Chris, I don't understand why you said this:
Moses was a brother of Aaron which certainly makes him a member of the tribe of Levi. And, Levi was certainly one of the twelve sons of Israel. Fearless Phil | ||
| Christo Registered user Username: Christo Post Number: 246 Registered: 2-2008 |
Thanks Phil, I need to do some more reading in my Bible. Thats why we are all here, anything about the rest of what I said ring true, I don't want this idea about Moses's actions with the first tablets to get lost. Humbled, Chris | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 2129 Registered: 4-2000  |
Colleen, Your statement that "Before the law was given, God's righteousness was humanity's standard" is because it was orally given. Cain knew that murder was evil and sinful. Cain would not have been punished without a clear, precise directive that constituted God's will. Christ was clearly in view in the sacrifices mandated way back in Cain and Abel's day. Without a law, there is no transgression of the law. Likewise, Adam and Eve broke oral commandments. God has always had His moral directives for humankind (both pre-Fall and post-Fall). God's righteous standards are encapsulated and extolled in the Ten Commandments. There is absolutely NOTHING not to like about them. Thus, Adam, Cain, and Noah were not left without any ethical standards (e.g., murder was sinful for Cain and Noah long before the Mosaic law was given, etc.). All of God's ethical laws, whether given orally or in written form, have guided believers throughout redemptive history. Our sovereign God doesn't leave anything to chance or uncertainty, but rather He has made very sure that people in every age knew exactly what was expected from them. Let us exclaim with David: "I will never forget your precepts...Oh how I love your law!" (Ps. 119:93,97 ESV). To God alone belongs all the glory! Dennis Fischer | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 1489 Registered: 3-2009 |
Let us exclaim with David: "I will never forget your precepts...Oh how I love your law!" Was David talking about the 10C or the entire Torah? If he was referring to the last, shall we exclaim with him "Oh how I love your Torah?" As in let's obey it? Would that fit a Christian? Hec | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 2130 Registered: 4-2000 |
Chris, Since the Ten Commandments are considered a basic summary of the 613 laws of the Torah, it should not surprise us to find a ceremonial law in the midst of them. Without any ritual elements, the Ten Commandments would not be a summary. Our SDA friends wrongly insist that all of the Ten Commandments are somehow moral or ethical in nature. The vast majority of the laws in the Torah are not of a moral nature, but rather ritual, civil, and judicial. Remember that not all of the 613 laws of the Torah had the same importance, weight, and purpose. Dennis Fischer | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 2131 Registered: 4-2000 |
Hec, The context of Ps. 119 reveals that David was applauding God's ethical teachings--not whether a goat should be boiled in its mother's milk. Dennis Fischer | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 11968 Registered: 12-2003 |
According to Romans 2:14-15, the Gentiles knew God's requirements for morality because, even though they did not have the law, the moral expectations were written on their consciences. There was no oral tradition of "God's law" for the gentiles. This moral awareness was part of God's grace to humanity, and Paul is clear that it did not require the law for the Gentiles to know how to live ethically. Moreover, Romans 5:12-14 is explicit that Adam and Eve sinned by breaking God's command to them, but the rest of humanity who lived before Moses were guilty of sin even though they did NOT break a command as Moses did. Here's the passage:
Humanity is guilty before God not because they broke a command; they are guilty because they inherited the spiritual guilt and death committed by Adam. The law, according to Romans 5 through 7, was given to demonstrate to everyone WHY they're guilty. That inherited guilt renders each person completely unable to live morally because even their intentions and motives are self-serving. We have to have a new spirit put into us—and God puts His in so we have His life and righteousness making us alive and able to internalize His will and commands. Sin before Moses was not based on people breaking any oral commands. Gentiles NEVER had the law, yet they were capable of living as law-abiding people. Jews HAD the law, but they were unable to attain righteousness. Sin is the condition of mankind. Depravity was so complete that God gave the law to wake people up to their sin and to repent and recognize their need for a new heart. We all know Jeremiah's prophecy in 31:31-33 about God promising a new covenant in which He would write His law on our hearts, but Ezekiel says it differently. Same promise; different expression:
Jeremiah said God would write His law on our hearts; Ezekiel describes the same promise by saying God would put His Spirit within us—a miracle which would result in our being able to walk in His statutes. I hate countering you, Dennis, because I respect you, but I also know that covenant theology is a confusing mixture of trying to say God has only "one covenant", that all the covenants are related, and that none are obsolete. This teaching is not derived from the NT. I do not question the salvation of people who hold to covenant theology, of course--but it is extremely confusing and obscures the clarity of the complete finished work of Jesus for those who have been trained to see reality through the lens that "Law" (as in the articulated Mosaic law) is eternal. Only God is eternal. He is above the law. He created the law. He is capable of revealing righteousness any way He desires, and He has revealed it through His Son—who resides in us and teaches us to respect His word. I know, Dennis, that you have made various public comments about those involved with LIfe Assurance Ministries being antinomian, and you have said we do not uphold God's eternal law. Dennis, these conclusions are wrong. God is eternal, and His righteousness and righteous requirements are eternal. The tables of stone are not eternal. 2 Cor. 3 describes the new covenant as a covenant of the Spirit instead of a covenant of the law. Colleen | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 1490 Registered: 3-2009 |
Thanks Colleen. I also respect Dennis. That's the problem. Because I respect him, he is almost convincing me to go back to SDA. Hec | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 2132 Registered: 4-2000 |
Colleen, Thank you for your response. I find it hard to believe that Adam and Eve never shared their religious views with their posterity during the 900+ years of their lives. I would have loved to hear their bedtime stories. Sadly, in spite of this theological luxury, their very first son became a murderer. Thus, there obviously was an initial oral tradition. Having said that, however, without knowing the written Law of God, people in pagan society generally value and attempt to practice its most basic tenets. For example, I have pagan friends who I totally trust to be in my home--even without my presence. It is normal for cultures to instinctively value justice, honesty, compassion, and goodness toward others, reflecting the divine law written in the heart. Oh yes, I have a highly-educated, pagan friend who sends me one hundred dollars every Christmas as a gift. Their practice of some good deeds and their aversion to some evil ones demonstrate an innate knowledge of God's law--a knowledge that will actually witness against them on the day of judgment. As a common grace, God gives human beings an instinctive sense of right and wrong that produces guilt when violated. In addition to an innate awareness of God's Law, men have a warning system that activates when they choose to ignore or disobey a certain law. Paul urges believers not to violate their own consciences or cause others to do so because repeatedly ignoring the warnings of the conscience desensitizes it and eventually silences or "sears" it (1 Tim. 4:2). I think this is what you were basically referring to which is correct. All in all, our sovereign God utilizes various ways to appeal to human beings about His expectations of them. Importantly, the Holy Spirit NEVER contradicts the written Word, but instead always upholds and empowers it. As Christians, we are not free to ignore or denigrate the righteous standards of God recorded throughout Scripture. As to your track record about publicly upholding God's moral laws throughout Scripture, I will let the lurkers and members of this forum decide for themselves. Hec, I am curious in what way I entice you to return to Adventism? After all, Adventists despise my view of the Law. I am not a Covenantalist as I have been accused of being on this thread. It is my studied contention that CT and NCT are extreme views on the opposite ends of the theological spectrum. Getting the Gospel right should be our top priority. The relationship of law and grace is worthy of our continued study. Dennis Fischer | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1018 Registered: 5-2007 |
While we are on the subject of confusion....... I have in the past and more recently reviewed some of the positions of the primary orthodox Christian faiths. What I quickly discover is the fact that by and large most of these faiths teach an obligation to, or at a minimum, a reflection towards the 10C as still having force in one manner or another on Christians today. In the various ways they each teach or express their theology they more or less cause one to run into continous circles between the legal aspect, the moral view, the negative context of the old covenant and the new approach in the NT setting. Some quotes are profoundly binding, others less so, all however tend to hold accountability. The Catholic and Greek Orthodox admitt that the 8th day, or Sunday is now the Christian day of observance in keeping with the 3rd RC commandment and the 4th EO commandment list. Thus , what I fathom is that the 10 C are taught more as a controling tool rather than to risk a clearer understanding away from the written approach. It is as if they what to have it both ways. This is why the theology is all over the map. IMO, it appears to me that the theology on the law is not clearly understood by even the oldest faiths. Seeking the counsel of one's Elders has proven to be a maze of confusions. Even in the NT scripture itself. We go in tandem with both positions. Depending on how you interpret what you just read. 2000 years of debate has not settled this question. Maybe a simpler question would be, how do anyone of you find peace to carry on day by day when you just don't know if your are doing wrong or not? "what ever is not of conviction is sin" What if you don't know how to gain conviction and you are stuck in between two pulling forces? There has to be peace in these gaps. Jim | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 1492 Registered: 3-2009 |
Denis, just the vehemence of your defense of the 10C could make anyone believe that SDA is correct. Just a couple quotes which could have been taken from any SDA author: “God's righteous standards are encapsulated and extolled in the Ten Commandments.” “The law establishes and fortifies the gift of faith in the sense of the sanctification process.” Hec | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 6896 Registered: 9-2006  |
Colleen is exactly right in her post, God putting his laws into our hearts is greater than the law written on tablets of stone, God putting the law in our hearts is God putting himself in our hearts, God is the law, complete in every way. This is where Fischer constantly goes off track. In putting his Spirit in our hearts he supplies us with the capacity to go above and beyond the 10 C, to the Israelite he was the law giver, Jesus is our provider, our savior, our rest, our redeemer, our enabler, our cleft in the rock, our shelter from the law and from the storm, our baptizer, our water and our bread, he is not somewhere off up there just to forgive or judge us when we do something wrong, but to restore us when we fail, he has already forgiven us, "Peter I have prayed for thee that thy faith fail not," He stands ever ready, ever living, to supply the needs of his children. Colleen and I might get in a spat, but he's bigger and more mighty that a spat. That is how I find peace to carry on day after day, in spite of my imperfection and failures, not a great character either I'm afraid, and hey there's folk don't even like me, I struggle, I constantly fall on my face, my righteousness is just filthy rags to God, and more than likely you might look at me and say, "Gee, and that guy claims he is a Christian! He sure as hec (pardon the pun) don't act like much of a Christian, well..I got news for you, I don't have to act like anything, come to think of it I ain't much of an actor either, and nothing does me more good than to aggravate a pumped up pompasass. I had rather be around my biker buddies as them, and they are a pretty rough crowd. I don't have to show any body my theology credentials, hold office in a church, go and do as they do, because Jesus reached down, picked me up and put me on the solid rock of his ever present upholding right hand. When I get to poutin', he makes me want to go to shoutin'. Thats what the law could not do is save a wretched hot headed, hard headed fool like me. I know when I do right and when I do wrong because he has put himself within me. Like Honest witness told someone, we walk through long periods of dry places, months turn into months, but you know what? He is a friend that sticks closer than a brother, he jealously watches over us, covers us with his right hand. Whether you can feel his presence or not, he is there within. He's done given us the earnest of heaven, because he is heaven. When we see him he'll have the same scars on his body and he says, put your hand here into this place where the blood and water flowed out and believe. River | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 2133 Registered: 4-2000 |
Jim, The Bible speaks with one voice. It is God's voice speaking to us. We do not serve a God of confusion or contradiction. There is only one faith and one gospel. As former Adventists, we have alot to learn and alot to unlearn. Seventh-day Adventism has not prepared us to face the diverse religious landscape beyond its doorstep. We can often avoid some pitfalls by learning from others who have gone through similar experiences. Christians truly need each other. Most importantly, we must pray unceasingly for God to direct our paths. Indeed, we serve a prayer-answering God. Sincerity of belief is no substitute for biblical truth. Only Christ, the true Sabbath Rest, can bring divine rest to our restless souls (Matt. 11:28-30). Thankfully, we don't have to be scholars in order to be saved. Personally, I deeply cherish the promise of Jesus: "I am the resurrection and the life, He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?" (John 11:25 NIV). What a wonderful Savior and Substitute! Dennis Fischer | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 2134 Registered: 4-2000 |
Hec, It is always important to strongly, even vehemently, defend God's written, righteous standards whenever its content is even remotely attacked or questioned. The Spirit-led life never overrules the authority of Scripture but only defends and empowers it. Moreover, the Spirit-led life does not negate nor denigrate the essentials of the Christian faith. Any assault on the ethical teachings of Scripture should be immediately defended (i.e., statements like "Teaching the Ten Commandments makes people vulnerable to become Adventists."). This is merely an overreaction to SDA legalism in the subtle form of various antinominianisms. Two wrongs never make a right. Dennis Fischer | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1019 Registered: 5-2007 |
Dennis, When I read your postings I get the impression that you are careful to not dismiss what is in the scripture concerning the law, and at teh same time you also embrace the "Spirit-led life" Repeatedly you list off the reinstatement of the commandments (9) and accept the release of the redefined Sabbath (4th) as ceremonial and replaced by Sunday as a day of worship in keeping with the intent of the 4th. In other words , you feel it is important to embrace the New Covenant and not let go of the foundation of the Ten. To a some extent we are on the same approach. Others however, believe that the law as a whole, in the legal sense, the letter of, has been brought to a complete end at the cross. That there is a change of and/or 'in' the law entirely. Some say the same laws written upon the heart, others say all new laws that happen to mirror most of the old ones and so on. These variances is what makes my head hurt. The most logical view I have lived on as that the law itself as given within the 10c was always to remain the unchanging foundation , but that in the NT God would write these laws on our hearts enabling us to Spiritualy live in them while at the same time being our continual substitute for our flawed performance or ability past present and future. That since His Spirit is in us, upon our hearts, that the main focus would be in feeding upon Christ drawing ever closer in practical faith and experience in expression of our faith. That deeds would be the outgrowth of the Spirit and our relationship in Christ. I see the plus and minus of all these approaches. If we defend the law, we invaribly trend towards a checklist lifestyle and come under a bondage to it. If we abandon the law and call it Spirit led, there remains (for me) that sense of presumption that we have changed the law of God regarding the Sabbath and have substituted our own. Again , I do see the advantages of being free from a legal code, from Sabbath keeping that leads to bondage, check list religon and works of drudgery that smother growth. How did the change take place. From my research, there was a great deal of persecution going on with the Romans and the Jews at the time. After the seige of Jerusalem, there were significant political reasons to mark out a distinction between Jews and Christians in order to convey to the Roman power they were not part of the Jewish problem. So to a great extent the transferance was rationalized since they understood that they were not under the law and that they would meet on the 8th day in honor of the Ressurection. But again , as I read through old theology and current positions, teachings are all over the place on preserving the concept , intent and embodiment of the 10C. We want the stability of the law but not the demanding legal bondage of it. The practical teaching of right and wrong seems to be the easy approach in theology rather than keeping the focus on the nature of living in the Spirit. I see both approaches. Do we merge them as is evident by the traditions of the Churches? If we merge them, then do we have the right to edit them? You said God is not a God of confusion. I keep coming back to that. Why did he make the set only to undo them? Then reinstate 9. Personally, I do not actually subscribe to the reinstatement theory. For me these passages are simply repeating the standing truth of these laws. Whether by the Spirit or by the letter, they stand as truth. Thus, I want the easier way of freedom from the law system and living by the simple concept of Love. Just as I heard on the radio today. When mother Teresa was asked why she was washing a leper, she said she was washing them as unto Christ. This is true religon in action. Jesus spoke of many examples that magnify the law as it was intended to be applied in our reality and capacity. Living a law of love seems to me establishes the law. Our imperfections of necessity are covered, not as a license but as a ransom from our rags and failings. But all these acts and embracement of love does not allow me to ignore God's law unless we are indeed free from the tablets as part of the whole old covenant system. Yes , I see many passages that suggest just that. Again, trying to hold the tensions betwen the NC OC and what is truly the new reality in Christ. This is why I asked before, what are we free from? Are we free from the legal code, from the written law, from the tablets of stone. Are we really? And if not , what are we free from beyond the forgiveness of past sins. "If we continue to sin then no more sacrifice for sins remain" then what is sin? "If any man sin we have an advocate with the Father" "I would not know sin expect for the law" All these are on again , off again when it comes to the law. Finally, after I exhaust my mind, I am left with futility and fear because I do not understand how to get out of the road. I stop thinking and rest in His arms. That is all I can ever seem to do. Jim | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 2135 Registered: 4-2000 |
Yes, Jim, I can appreciate your concern or dilemma. You are certainly not alone in trying to decipher biblical truth amidst much heresy. We certainly need to be sure we get the Gospel right. For example, Covenant Theology makes the New Covenant into a warmed-over Old Covenant while New Covenant Theology draws too sharp a contrast with no commonalities between the Old and New Covenants. These are both extreme views as I see them. The real truth is more of a middle ground where we can appreciate the distinctions and the commonalities between these two covenants. However, in the area of God's holy, moral laws, they transcend all covenants. For example, murder is prohibited under the Noahic, Mosaic, and New Covenant. This is definitely a notable commonality among them. At the same time, we need to understand the distinctive features of each covenant as well. Of course, it most important to know which covenant we are under. Paul condemned the Judaizers' "Christ-plus" message as obscuring and indeed denying the all-sufficiency of the grace revealed in Jesus. Truly, the Gospel plus anything else is no longer of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Our SDA friends are experts in the "Christ-plus" message. The Christian life is definitely a Spirit-led life, but the fallen human heart dislikes God's law, both because it is a law and because it is God's; those who know Christ, however, find not only that they love the law and want to keep it, out of gratitude for grace (Romans 7:18-22; 12:1-2), but also that the Holy Spirit leads them into a degree of obedience, starting with the heart, that was NEVER theirs before (Romans 7:6;8:4-6;Heb. 10:16). God's moral law is abundantly set forth in Scripture (i.e., the Decalogue, other Mosaic statutes, sermons by prophets, the teaching of Jesus, and the NT letters. It reflects His holy character and His purpose for created human beings. God commands the behavior that He loves to see and forbids that which offends Him. EVERYTHING that God does is for His glory. We must be sure that freedom from the law as a way of salvation is not assumed to bring with it freedom from the law as a guide to conduct. Dennis Fischer | ||
| Michaelmiller Registered user Username: Michaelmiller Post Number: 137 Registered: 7-2010  |
Jim, I'm going to be a bit bold here... I almost said this last week but hesitated. Your recent statement in this thread only confirms my suspicion, so here it goes... Take a break from the CT/NCT question and do a study on assurance of salvation! While the covenant debate is interesting, the real underlying problem is that you do not have assurance. You are afraid that your misinterpretation might put you out of favor with God. It might be helpful if you understood that you can have assurance from belief alone even before you understand how the big picture works. This is an important part of the surrendering process. I'm afraid that you are trying to figure it all out and remove the veil yourself. That is God's job, not yours. Michael |
